Western Fair Gateway Casino Expansion

[Dither City]

Interesting story CTV London reported on the expansion of the Western fair with Gateway casino $140 million dollar project it appears that they want to move quickly. Implications for OEV will be huge another piece continuing renewal of area this may very well accelerate the process. It certainly makes for very positive argument for the rapid transit debate with 1 or 2 stations on your door step easy access to downtown. The size of the hotel and conference facilities will play very important part with this project usual naysayers will trot out the same old stale arguments looking to maintain the status quo anytime anybody wants to increase the number of hotel rooms in city.

http://london.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1247796

[haljackey]

If they cannibalize the parking lot, where would the Western Fair Midway rides go?

I originally thought it was just going to be a expansion of the existing slots, not a brand new building. I last heard that the restaurant would be converted to table space.

I guess the old slots could be demolished for parking or converted to convention / fair space.

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I think I'm for this. If we have legalized gambling we may as well get a full casino. Slots don't really attract people beyond the elderly and addicts, and many Londoners take the journey elsewhere to find table games. Their money could stay in London.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by haljackey

I think I'm for this. If we have legalized gambling we may as well get a full casino. Slots don't really attract people beyond the elderly and addicts, and many Londoners take the journey elsewhere to find table games. Their money could stay in London.

That is my thought, make it a full casino build a hotel, 3 level parking across the street.

[Djeffery]

The fall fair is going downhill fast anyway, they don't need to keep a big open space for 10 days a year. I don't know what kind of footprint they are talking about, but they could easily take the Progress building down for parking/fair space and build the casino fronting on Florence, with a parking garage between the arena and agriplex as MrSlippery says. The agriplex has a ton of exhibit space that isn't used often and could replace the Progress space. Smaller events could probably be held in the casino/hotel as they always have event space as well. And maybe the current slot space could revert back to exhibit space as well.

Also, is there any reason that for the fair's run, they can't close King st at Rectory, and use their space on that block on the north side of King in addition to the remaining space on the south side of King, over to the raceway?

Or buy the rest of that block north of King and build the casino there, with a parking garage on the south side of King with a walkway. Do we really think that apartment building is happening there anyway? lol

[jammer139]

Yeah the twin tower proposal on Dundas sure got quiet really fast.

Plenty of room - take down the Progress building and rejig the new Casino there.

Originally Posted by Djeffery

The fall fair is going downhill fast anyway, they don't need to keep a big open space for 10 days a year. I don't know what kind of footprint they are talking about, but they could easily take the Progress building down for parking/fair space and build the casino fronting on Florence, with a parking garage between the arena and agriplex as MrSlippery says. The agriplex has a ton of exhibit space that isn't used often and could replace the Progress space. Smaller events could probably be held in the casino/hotel as they always have event space as well. And maybe the current slot space could revert back to exhibit space as well.

Also, is there any reason that for the fair's run, they can't close King st at Rectory, and use their space on that block on the north side of King in addition to the remaining space on the south side of King, over to the raceway?

Or buy the rest of that block north of King and build the casino there, with a parking garage on the south side of King with a walkway. Do we really think that apartment building is happening there anyway? lol

[haljackey]

The fair could also set up on the other side of Florence, by the Sports Centre and Agriplex. The old offices at Rectory and Florence are being demoed as well so more space there.

Agreed with closing part of King for the fair, that could open up a lot of space!

I wonder how the racetrack will 'fair' without the slots in the same building?

[tyeman200]

I do like the proposal, hopefully it will revitalize that part of town. I agree with haljackey, the fair can be set up between the Agriplex and the sports centre. It doesn't need to be a big fair, just bring in some good rides and great attractions and you're good. I haven't been in a while because it really isn't as great anymore, not how I used to remember it.

[MolsonExport]

I dislike casinos, although I am not proposing to ban them altogether. I consider them a tax on the mathematically challenged and on people that cannot control their impulses. What is the net benefit to society in terms of dollars, once we factor in the increased crime, aftermath of broken families, etc.? Healthcare eats up almost all extra dollars generated, which mostly goes towards the oldest segments of our population. We are doing a terrible job investing in the younger generation, and in infrastructure: both areas that will pay future economic dividends.

Like finance, casinos don't generate money; they merely redistribute money.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I dislike casinos, although I am not proposing to ban them altogether. I consider them a tax on the mathematically challenged and on people that cannot control their impulses. What is the net benefit to society in terms of dollars, once we factor in the increased crime, aftermath of broken families, etc.? Healthcare eats up almost all extra dollars generated, which mostly goes towards the oldest segments of our population. We are doing a terrible job investing in the younger generation, and in infrastructure: both areas that will pay future economic dividends.

Like finance, casinos don't generate money; they merely redistribute money.

I do partially agree with you, but I think slots only is worse than a full casino. At least a casino would bring "money" into London, like Windsor people go and spend the night to experience that.

Slots are just a bunch of addicted old people spending money for no reason. (my opinion)

[haljackey]

Slots are just randomness, there is no skill involved which isn't appealing to me.

I'm a stats guy and much prefer table games as they can be skill based. For instance, If you know how to play poker or blackjack properly or know what the best bets are in craps, you can heavily cut down the odds and sometimes put the odds in your favor. Over the long run, factoring in player reward comps like food, rooms, shows, etc, it's pretty much free entertainment.

Not all table games are skill based however. Stay away from roulette for example, yet even that game has half the house edge of penny slots.

Fun fact: Did you know that nearly all penny slots do not let you bet a penny? I think I saw one in Niagara Falls where the minimum bet was 50 lines, or 50 cents a spin. Max bet was like $5 a spin

[Dither City]

Another CTV piece concerning $140 million Gateway casino project making it sound like city of London Western fair Gateway are at odds. When you listen carefully that's not the message I'm getting. Not sure why CTV London Free Press always play this game making it sound there's friction when there's not really any. Spokesman for gateway clearly says one main entrance for all facilities.

http://london.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1250231

[Oliverfox]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I dislike casinos, although I am not proposing to ban them altogether. I consider them a tax on the mathematically challenged and on people that cannot control their impulses. What is the net benefit to society in terms of dollars, once we factor in the increased crime, aftermath of broken families, etc.? Healthcare eats up almost all extra dollars generated, which mostly goes towards the oldest segments of our population. We are doing a terrible job investing in the younger generation, and in infrastructure: both areas that will pay future economic dividends.

Like finance, casinos don't generate money; they merely redistribute money.

I don't believe the casino will really change the Old East Village from being a sketchy part of town (to fix that area you need safe injection sites with rehabilitation programs to help addicts and sidewalk police patrols to make people feel safe). However it will bring more money and provide entertainment venues in London which is a great thing, I just hope they try to build up and not gobble up to much of the space for the exhibition and fair.

[Stevo26]

Originally Posted by Dither City

Interesting story CTV London reported on the expansion of the Western fair with Gateway casino $140 million dollar project it appears that they want to move quickly. Implications for OEV will be huge another piece continuing renewal of area this may very well accelerate the process. It certainly makes for very positive argument for the rapid transit debate with 1 or 2 stations on your door step easy access to downtown. The size of the hotel and conference facilities will play very important part with this project usual naysayers will trot out the same old stale arguments looking to maintain the status quo anytime anybody wants to increase the number of hotel rooms in city.

http://london.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1247796

I don't care too much about the addition of a casino or more slots. As someone else put it, gambling of this type is a tax on stupidity. And I feel sorry for all the elderly who go there to gamble because they've nothing better to do.

What I would like to see is revamped and/or rebuilt exhibition buildings. The ones that are there now are quite old, and they're rather dim and poorly lit on the inside.

[kaiserLDN]

I like the casino idea in London. We need more fun things to do. I would use it. It would Probably have a few good restaurant's I can eat at, a different style hotel, Play some blackjack and roulette perhaps some craps. Have a nice night out. London is a boring city that needs some more things to do. This casino and the Kellogg's redevelopment that I have been following on social media will help add some fun to this city especially in the winter

[jammer139]

Actually the process usually takes years as the neighborhood evolves and more money and businesses move in. The addicts and street folks will move to another area. EOA has a chance to transform itself into a desirable neighborhood right up to the Kelloggs and old McCormick buildings.

Likely areas to see the addicts and street folk being Hamilton Rd east of Adelaide and Dundas Street east of Hale.

Horton and Wellington ie: SOHO has a chance to evolve if the old Hospital lands are properly developed with the right mix of residential and commercial/retail.

Originally Posted by Oliverfox

I don't believe the casino will really change the Old East Village from being a sketchy part of town (to fix that area you need safe injection sites with rehabilitation programs to help addicts and sidewalk police patrols to make people feel safe). However it will bring more money and provide entertainment venues in London which is a great thing, I just hope they try to build up and not gobble up to much of the space for the exhibition and fair.

[Oliverfox]

Originally Posted by jammer139

Actually the process usually takes years as the neighborhood evolves and more money and businesses move in. The addicts and street folks will move to another area. EOA has a chance to transform itself into a desirable neighborhood right up to the Kelloggs and old McCormick buildings.

Likely areas to see the addicts and street folk being Hamilton Rd east of Adelaide and Dundas Street east of Hale.

Horton and Wellington ie: SOHO has a chance to evolve if the old Hospital lands are properly developed with the right mix of residential and commercial/retail.

I agree that the process takes years but addiction and homelessness is everywhere in this city. Pushing them into the next undesirable area where we don't have to see them or deal with them is not addressing the issue and doesn't work. Remember the reasons people stopped going to downtown London and Old East Village were because of a lack parking, lack of transit, lack of venues, and lack of safety. Unless we actually address these issues (which London did have a chance to address but blew it with the new transit plan and downtown parking), nothing will ever change in these areas.

[haljackey]

Good article this morning from the Free Press about Gateway and horse racing

http://www.lfpress.com/2017/11/12/ha...o-battle-brews

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I went to the racetrack for the first time last year. The whole place seems pretty dull, although It is somewhat exciting when the race is going on. Based on the amount of people watching I can see why it loses money, but there a lot of people that bet online too I guess.

I don't think I'd mind to see it go. If the industry is not profitable it should fail unless we bail it out if does some kind of public good but I don't think it really does. Yes some people will be laid off but the Casino expansion will help create some jobs. Mohawk and Woodbine are not too far away and are probably more exciting places than the Western Fair raceway.

[MolsonExport]

To me there is something a bit more to horse racing than what you get placing bets on card games/dice (or worse, slots). It would seem that the former supports a broader infrastructure of people (jobs inside/outside the immediate community). That said, do young people even place bets on horses anymore?

London is extremely boring with/without the Casino and we are unlikely to attract many people from outside (excepting the small communities in/around London) just because we have a full Casino. Casinos are easily replicated in other places, so it does not provide any long term sustainable advantage.

Casinos are shell games. Moving around money rather than creating it.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

To me there is something a bit more to horse racing than what you get placing bets on card games/dice (or worse, slots). It would seem that the former supports a broader infrastructure of people (jobs inside/outside the immediate community). That said, do young people even place bets on horses anymore?

Horse racing has worse odds than slots. You lose 20 cents of every dollar in the long run when betting on horses. Compare that to penny slots, which is about half that at 10 cents per dollar.
-They need this kind of house edge to pay for all the facilities and staff employed with the process. Even with this cut, they still need to be subsidized by the government.

When I went, I was by far the youngest person at the raceway. Seems to cater to a middle-to-old age crowd. Not exciting for young people these days, we like faster paced stuff. The time between races is boring, although you can bet on simulcast racing from other tracks that they show on tvs from the 1990s.

[jammer139]

I don't for a minute believe we can wave a magic wand and eliminate homelessness and addictions. That utopia may exist in the future Star Trek civilization of the year 2200 but isn't likely in our lifetimes.

The reality is people will be pushed into the next undesirable area as a neighborhood evolves. This process is happening everywhere in urban areas including London. It's only a matter of time-frames.

Originally Posted by Oliverfox

I agree that the process takes years but addiction and homelessness is everywhere in this city. Pushing them into the next undesirable area where we don't have to see them or deal with them is not addressing the issue and doesn't work. Remember the reasons people stopped going to downtown London and Old East Village were because of a lack parking, lack of transit, lack of venues, and lack of safety. Unless we actually address these issues (which London did have a chance to address but blew it with the new transit plan and downtown parking), nothing will ever change in these areas.