The art of city building

[Jor D]

Widening streets.?

Think about it this way. You don't spend the money on bayers road. You don't spend the money on the Bedford highway. You plan. You plan your city to be a honeycomb of communities. People live near their work. People need to do this in the future. But as city planners we need to make that possible for them. And where that can't happen we provide LRT and true BRT systems. (There are train buses on wheels that can run on alleyways up hills or flat). Look at the neighborhood of Rockingham for instance. That doesn't need a Bedford highway expressway but instead that section of Bedford highway needs to be Rockinghams main street with cafés, restaurants and boutiques, and dentists and offices with its neighborhood drug store. Yes! Rockinghams main street. Put all that street widening money in a fund for future LRT'S and BRT. Develope neighborhoods around or near work places. When it comes to downtown. ...build high rise econo apartments not just condos because the people who work on the high rise offices are mostly receptionists and building cleaners...etc not to mention the many shopkeepers and blue collar downtown workers. Why are we building high end residential where the middle class can't afford.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Jor D

Widening streets.?

Think about it this way. You don't spend the money on bayers road. You don't spend the money on the Bedford highway. You plan. You plan your city to be a honeycomb of communities. People live near their work. People need to do this in the future. But as city planners we need to make that possible for them. And where that can't happen we provide LRT and true BRT systems. (There are train buses on wheels that can run on alleyways up hills or flat). Look at the neighborhood of Rockingham for instance. That doesn't need a Bedford highway expressway but instead that section of Bedford highway needs to be Rockinghams main street with cafés, restaurants and boutiques, and dentists and offices with its neighborhood drug store. Yes! Rockinghams main street. Put all that street widening money in a fund for future LRT'S and BRT. Develope neighborhoods around or near work places. When it comes to downtown. ...build high rise econo apartments not just condos because the people who work on the high rise offices are mostly receptionists and building cleaners...etc not to mention the many shopkeepers and blue collar downtown workers. Why are we building high end residential where the middle class can't afford.

Sounds like communist East Germany circa 1970.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Jor D

Widening streets.?

Think about it this way. You don't spend the money on bayers road. You don't spend the money on the Bedford highway. You plan. You plan your city to be a honeycomb of communities. People live near their work. People need to do this in the future. But as city planners we need to make that possible for them. And where that can't happen we provide LRT and true BRT systems. (There are train buses on wheels that can run on alleyways up hills or flat). Look at the neighborhood of Rockingham for instance. That doesn't need a Bedford highway expressway but instead that section of Bedford highway needs to be Rockinghams main street with cafés, restaurants and boutiques, and dentists and offices with its neighborhood drug store. Yes! Rockinghams main street. Put all that street widening money in a fund for future LRT'S and BRT. Develope neighborhoods around or near work places. When it comes to downtown. ...build high rise econo apartments not just condos because the people who work on the high rise offices are mostly receptionists and building cleaners...etc not to mention the many shopkeepers and blue collar downtown workers. Why are we building high end residential where the middle class can't afford.

Or we could just have the LRT/BRT you propose and anybody could feasibly and work/live anywhere.

To have good bus transit though, Bayers will definitely have to be widened.

High rise econo towers? This is Halifax... I like your vision, but it would require the anti-widening crowd also not be the anti-height crowd. It would also require a huge cultural shift that I'm for... but its not reflected in the philistine consumption patterns of those who choose to live in the suburbs as opposed to living on the peninsula which still has affordable housing in the north and west end (Not Mcmansions though). God forbid anybody would walk to work from the west end.

[Colin May]

Nova Scotia should spend money to lure/steal the young talent in Vancouver :

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opini...ticle28730533/

[someone123]

I like Vancouver but, for the average young person, I suspect that Halifax offers a better standard of living. Most Canadians have no idea this is the case; Halifax has a Lunenburg type image in much of the rest of the country. Sleep, maybe a nice quiet place to retire, but you'd have to put up with the mediocre economy. There doesn't seem to be any effort to close this gap or capitalize on the city's advantages through PR type initiatives.

[Jor D]

I think the future mindset of people seeking places to live is changing. City planners need to provide for that change. Build it and they will come. If we build beechwood than of course it will fill up. If we build a thirty storey glass covered apartment building on the corner of Queen and Morris they will come also.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Jor D

I think the future mindset of people seeking places to live is changing. City planners need to provide for that change. Build it and they will come. If we build beechwood than of course it will fill up. If we build a thirty storey glass covered apartment building on the corner of Queen and Morris they will come also.

You make a good point... Drybrain's analysis points to something here though.

It depends where the new residents to Halifax come from. For example, those coming from other urban centres (within and outside of Canada) where they are used to some degree of walking and/or public transit are unlikely to live in the far flung areas. Those moving from rural areas, particularly NS, view it as normal to be driving 30+ minutes and have also bought into the narrative that Halifax is "dangerous". Until we get more of the first group... we'll see continued growth at the periphery of the city because there is a big "cultural" difference here.

The role of the city can be to change this by making it relatively more attractive to live close to downtown and also by limiting the sprawl of the city... this has not been done and the sprawl continues which strains our weak transit. This being said, roads still need to be widened... regardless of any narrative about alternatives because non-track based public transit will continued to be hampered by the narrowness of some major routes into the core.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

There doesn't seem to be any effort to close this gap or capitalize on the city's advantages through PR type initiatives.

Well, they started down this path with the "H/\LIF/\X" rebranding initiative, which was widely ridiculed by those who preferred the folksy "Lighthouse" style logo, and now we have Warren Wesson trying to organize a separatist movement for Dartmouth because they hate the idea of being part of the municipality. Wesson is the guy who, you may remember, was involed in the street drug scene and narrowly escaped a drug-related shooting death by jumping out a second-story window at the old Hfx Coalition Against Poverty clubhouse on Agricola Street a few years ago, suffering serious but not fatal injuries instead. Now he is apparently a Dartmouth community leader. Viva la revolution, I guess.

I think this sort of thing is a big part of our problem. Instead of dismissing crackpot ideas like this, the media gives them lots of play and treats them as credible, and there are an ample number of like-minded folk who join in the movement to keep us stuck in the mud. Add to that people like Bousquet who are always looking for something negative to say and his cadre of nodding-head supporters, and the typical NS attitude of "if you're successful, you don't deserve it and probably know someone or are crooked" and no wonder we can't change our image.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Well, they started down this path with the "H/\LIF/\X" rebranding initiative, which was widely ridiculed by those who preferred the folksy "Lighthouse" style logo, and now we have Warren Wesson trying to organize a separatist movement for Dartmouth because they hate the idea of being part of the municipality. Wesson is the guy who, you may remember, was involed in the street drug scene and narrowly escaped a drug-related shooting death by jumping out a second-story window at the old Hfx Coalition Against Poverty clubhouse on Agricola Street a few years ago, suffering serious but not fatal injuries instead. Now he is apparently a Dartmouth community leader. Viva la revolution, I guess.

I think this sort of thing is a big part of our problem. Instead of dismissing crackpot ideas like this, the media gives them lots of play and treats them as credible, and there are an ample number of like-minded folk who join in the movement to keep us stuck in the mud. Add to that people like Bousquet who are always looking for something negative to say and his cadre of nodding-head supporters, and the typical NS attitude of "if you're successful, you don't deserve it and probably know someone or are crooked" and no wonder we can't change our image.

Well said, Keith.

The handful of loudmouths trying to turn back the hands of time are succeeding in one thing: royally pissing me off. I grew up in Dartmouth to a proud Dartmouth family and will take a back seat to no one in my love for the community. But the name on a sign does not a community make, and amalgamation, for all its faults, was the right thing at the right time. Would that these flat-earthers devote their energies to making real meaningful change instead of crying about branding.

Here's the hypocrisy and ignorance that astounds me: just what Dartmouth are they talking about? The former "City of Dartmouth" existed for only 35 years. It was formed in 1961 after annexing multiple rural communities against the wishes of many of the people who lived there. Maybe Wesson, McCluskey et al are right. But the hell with Dartmouth on my sign. I live in Westphal goddammit!

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Add to that people like Bousquet who are always looking for something negative to say and his cadre of nodding-head supporters, and the typical NS attitude of "if you're successful, you don't deserve it and probably know someone or are crooked" and no wonder we can't change our image.

Great points Keith. Many of us bring the money back home and get viewed by those folks as somehow undeserving. Well, the price that you pay for success might be leaving. Its not a bad thing if you contribute back home.

It also doesn't help when certain people on this board claim that all development in Halifax is just the developers buying their own condos and the city is a potemkin village. IF the market were to crash, you'd see alot of us who aren't home anymore picking up properties for a good deal.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

I like Vancouver but, for the average young person, I suspect that Halifax offers a better standard of living. Most Canadians have no idea this is the case; Halifax has a Lunenburg type image in much of the rest of the country. Sleep, maybe a nice quiet place to retire, but you'd have to put up with the mediocre economy. There doesn't seem to be any effort to close this gap or capitalize on the city's advantages through PR type initiatives.

My interest was actually piqued by this story this morning and I crunched some numbers (when I should have been working).

Comparing Halifax, Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, and Winnipeg (kind of random cities to compare, but anyway), Vancouver and Halifax have among the LEAST youth-outmigration.

Between 2010 and 2015, Halifax had a net loss of 596 people between the ages of 20 and 40 to other provinces.

To compare, Montreal lost 16,000 over that period, about 280% more than us when adjusted proportionally. Winnipeg lost 8,332, about 750% more, and Toronto lost 8,522, only about 35% less.

Vancouver gained 602 people.

And Halifax's intra-provincial migration numbers in those age brackets are stratospherically better than those other cities. If you combine inter- and intra-provincial migration, Halifax has the most youth IN-migration of any of those cities, including Vancouver (whose slightly positive inter-provincial migration numbers are hugely offset by massive intraprovincial outmigration--young Vancouverites moving elsewhere in BC, I presume in large part due to housing costs).

And even if you only look at inter-provincial, Halifax is solidly in the middle of the pack, and a lot better than many.

But, we have this fake notion that the city is faced with an outmigration crisis, with all the young people bleeding away, and all our civic attention is focused on that. The idea that we're an attractive destination for other Canadians barely enters the civic consciousness. A concerted PR effort to market the city that way would require a major mental shift for a lot of us here.

[Colin May]

The branding is BS. It is also confusing to people from away.

Any international examples of this nonsense ?

I have a sibling in Troon, Scotland which is now in the municipality of East Ayrshire. From 1972 to 1996 it was part of the monstrous municipal unit known as Strathclyde. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strathclyde

" The area was on the west coast of Scotland and stretched from the Highlands in the north to the Southern Uplands in the south. As a local government region, its population, in excess of 2.5 million, was the largest of the regions. The Region was responsible for education (from nursery to colleges); social work; police; fire; sewage; strategic planning; roads; transport - and, therefore, employed almost 100,000 public servants (almost half were teachers, lecturers and others in the education service). "

In 1996 it was dissolved and replaced by 12 municipal entities.

I never saw branding in the area to the extent of the nonsense we now see in HRM.
The garbage trucks in HRM now have a small branding informing me " Contracted to H^LIF^X "

The H^LIF^X branding is an expression of petty minds, wrapped in the notion that we will all feel better and project a more positive image to those we seek approval from.
If we want to show others just how smart we are we would have a Mayor and council who don't begrudge and complain about spending money on P-12 education.
When we can boast of world class public schools and world class students graduating from such schools we really will have a branding that doesn't rely on signs.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The H^LIF^X branding is an expression of petty minds, wrapped in the notion that we will all feel better and project a more positive image to those we seek approval from.
If we want to show others just how smart we are we would have a Mayor and council who don't begrudge and complain about spending money on P-12 education.
When we can boast of world class public schools and world class students graduating from such schools we really will have a branding that doesn't rely on signs.

Then why do all the major / successful cities have such a brand? The Iamsterdam campaign comes to mind.

I don't want a lighthouse or some other nonsense in the city's logo. Sure, we have lighthouses, but Amsterdam's logo isn't a canal or ship or something else ridiculously kitchy. The HRM brand before the change was a joke... if you like that sort of thing, you're not the type of person the branding is trying to attract.

We already have world class public schools (many of them have IB programs) and universities. Unfortunately all of our world class talent, including everybody I went to school with on the peninsula has moved away. I'm not mad though, I'd much rather live in world class cities until Halifax gets its act together on broad issues like how it represents itself and on key issues like transit, infrastructure, etc.

The small mindedness comes from people trying to carve out some separate identity from a part of the HRM when areas of the city should view themselves as districts. You wouldn't hear somebody in Queen's NY rail against the fact that they "aren't from NY". This type of thinking gets exaggerated at council too.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Then why do all the major / successful cities have such a brand? The Iamsterdam campaign comes to mind.

I don't want a lighthouse or some other nonsense in the city's logo. Sure, we have lighthouses, but Amsterdam's logo isn't a canal or ship or something else ridiculously kitchy. The HRM brand before the change was a joke... if you like that sort of thing, you're not the type of person the branding is trying to attract.

We already have world class public schools (many of them have IB programs) and universities. Unfortunately all of our world class talent, including everybody I went to school with on the peninsula has moved away. I'm not mad though, I'd much rather live in world class cities until Halifax gets its act together on broad issues like how it represents itself and on key issues like transit, infrastructure, etc.

The small mindedness comes from people trying to carve out some separate identity from a part of the HRM when areas of the city should view themselves as districts. You wouldn't hear somebody in Queen's NY rail against the fact that they "aren't from NY". This type of thinking gets exaggerated at council too.

Stanfield Airport has not adopted the new logo. Nor has the Port of Halifax.

HRM has world class public schools - names please.
Did you listen to the CBC radio this past week ? Have you seen the test scores from HRM schools ?
Have you spoken with teachers, especially those who have a class with 50% on an IPP ? Do you believe HRM inner city schools look attractive from the outside ?
Amsterdam is much larger and nicer than Halifax, not to mention significant its economic and cultural history stretching back centuries. I don't need a logo to know what Amsterdam, or any other major city offers. The logo for Hamburg is much the same as 50 years ago.
Say Rotterdam to a Nova Scotian and I don't know how a person would respond or if they could locate it on a map.

HRM is a nice place to live, not a cultural icon but I would not expect such a small place to offer the cultural experience available in much larger cities. Dartmouth is nicer because we have better views, the lakes and cheaper properties. Unfortunately the schools leave much to be desired.

Branding will end up being one of those passing fads, a bit like the short lifespan of the Zero Based Budgeting rage of the 80s.

How would you brand Nova Scotia ?

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Stanfield Airport has not adopted the new logo. Nor has the Port of Halifax.

HRM has world class public schools - names please.
Did you listen to the CBC radio this past week ? Have you seen the test scores from HRM schools ?
Have you spoken with teachers, especially those who have a class with 50% on an IPP ? Do you believe HRM inner city schools look attractive from the outside ?

HRM is a nice place to live, not a cultural icon but I would not expect such a small place to offer the cultural experience available in much larger cities. Dartmouth is nicer because we have better views, the lakes and cheaper properties. Unfortunately the schools leave much to be desired.

Branding will end up being one of those passing fads, a bit like the short lifespan of the Zero Based Budgeting rage of the 80s.

How would you brand Nova Scotia ?

There are too many things wrong here to address. I won't even bother because you definitely don't have enough perspective or authority to make any of those judgements. Branding is a fad... right...

Are you even from Halifax or a graduate of a Halifax school?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Stanfield Airport has not adopted the new logo. Nor has the Port of Halifax.

Those are both federal facilities.

HRM has world class public schools - names please.
Did you listen to the CBC radio this past week ? Have you seen the test scores from HRM schools ?
Have you spoken with teachers, especially those who have a class with 50% on an IPP ? Do you believe HRM inner city schools look attractive from the outside ?

HRM has nothing to do with schools or the delivery of education.

Branding will end up being one of those passing fads, a bit like the short lifespan of the Zero Based Budgeting rage of the 80s.

How would you brand Nova Scotia ?

Branding is hardly a "fad". Ask Coca-Cola or Ford.

Zero-based budgeting is a useful concept but one that is frustrated by the inability to reduce the size of bureaucracy due to provisions in collective agreements that make it impossible to reduce the size of the civil service. Add to that the natural desire of govts and bureaucracies to expand and it never stood a chance without a powerful leader to enforce it.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

The HRM brand before the change was a joke... if you like that sort of thing, you're not the type of person the branding is trying to attract.

Beyond kitschy, it was actively confusing to a lot of people. In a few instances I saw national publications refer to Halifax as "Halifax Regional Municipality" or, more cryptically, "HRM". Lists would say "Toronto, Montreal, HRM". People didn't know what this thing was or why it was any different from all the other cities. The fact that Halifax has different neighbourhoods and satellite towns does not make it unique in any way. All that's unusual is the technical extent of the municipality but that is irrelevant and confusing to people who don't actually live in the area. Using "HRM" outside of the region is silly.

Even locals get confused by HRM stuff when they say Halifax is uniquely spread out or is somehow an abstract construct rather than a "real" city. This is not true at all. Halifax's settlement patterns aren't even unique within the region. The metropolitan area for Fredericton constructed by Statistics Canada (CMA) is about the same size as the comparable Halifax CMA, but the population is 1/4. Edmonton, Ottawa, and a bunch of others are the same. They are all defined in the same way and they all look similar. Halifax doesn't stand out in terms of the extent of the developed metropolitan area, and that area does not include more than would be included in other cities. The only real difference is that the metro area has one municipality whereas others tend to be broken up into multiple municipalities.

You wouldn't hear somebody in Queen's NY rail against the fact that they "aren't from NY". This type of thinking gets exaggerated at council too.

I think the confusion is that there are different audiences. To a tourist from another country, the distinction between Halifax and Dartmouth, let alone Sheet Harbour, is completely irrelevant. To a local, the external branding is irrelevant. These two concerns should be kept separate. Unfortunately for a while city politicians didn't seem to really grasp this.

The "Halifax is no Amsterdam" sentiment seems either disngenuous or confused to me, at least insofar as it's combined with the attitude that places like Dartmouth should get more attention. Dartmouth is no Halifax, and Musquodoboit Harbour is no Dartmouth. There is no magical "world-class" cutoff either. Cities should all make sure that they have some sort of coherent external presentation and a good reputation, and if they have tourism potential as the Halifax area does they should try to promote that.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by someone123

The "Halifax is no Amsterdam" sentiment seems either disngenuous or confused to me, at least insofar as it's combined with the attitude that places like Dartmouth should get more attention. Dartmouth is no Halifax, and Musquodoboit Harbour is no Dartmouth. There is no magical "world-class" cutoff either. Cities should all make sure that they have some sort of coherent external presentation and a good reputation, and if they have tourism potential as the Halifax area does they should try to promote that.

Exactly... I just used Amsterdam as an example because, aside from their other reasons for tourists to visit (relaxed laws, museums, etc), they are a shining example of how good branding works. We could also say Lyon or a number of other cities... its not about their size, but the quality of their branding. Halifax has alot to offer that isn't stereotypical, so why would we box ourselves in with stupid lighthouses in our logo? The modern logo just says Halifax... there should even be a moving H/\LIF/\X in letters around the city that people can take pictures in front of and then promote us virally, duh!


Credit:stockphotos.ro


Credit: spacing.ca

For some of those cities branding has actually solidified local identities as well. And the point made about airports and ports... they are always branding separately and in complement with the city. Just look at Frankfurt, etc.

What I meant by the districts was that I've lived in plenty of cities that have equivalents to a Dartmouth or areas outside of the core that are defined by a different name. Its completely normal that public transit runs to these places and they have their own identities. That being said, nobody from the neighbourhood is going start saying they aren't from Amsterdam...

[someone123]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

For some of those cities branding has actually solidified local identities as well. And the point made about airports and ports... they are always branding separately and in complement with the city. Just look at Frankfurt, etc.

The best branding and PR efforts look natural. I would guess that a lot of the cities that have prominent and well-defined reputations are primarily those that have had the most successful marketing. This probably correlates with the cities that have the best stuff to actually visit but I bet there are exceptions. And the Halifax area has lots of genuinely interesting attractions for visitors. There's no reason why the city can't have this sort of identity at least nationally, if not internationally, and to some degree it already does.

What I meant by the districts was that I've lived in plenty of cities that have equivalents to a Dartmouth or areas outside of the core that are defined by a different name. Its completely normal that public transit runs to these places and they have their own identities. That being said, nobody from the neighbourhood is going start saying they aren't from Amsterdam...

Yep, there are different types of geographic distinctions for different contexts.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Colin May

and world class students graduating from such schools we really will have a branding that doesn't rely on signs.

Its hard for us (i.e. the world class graduates from the HRM public school system) to promote Halifax when all we hear is complaining about new ideas and obstructionism by the people who are still there.