Dartmouth waterfront

[Musquodoboit County]

Anyone seeing news on Dartmouth revitalized waterfront?
If you have....has there been and renderings and details to share?

[IanWatson]

No renderings.

The news is that they've issued the RFP to do a waterfront plan. It'll be some time before any plans come out of that.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Musquodoboit County

Anyone seeing news on Dartmouth revitalized waterfront?
If you have....has there been and renderings and details to share?

Well, Mosaik Property Management now has approval from Harbor East Community Council to build four towers on two separate parcels - 30 and 12 storeys at 42 Canal Street, and 30 and 8 storeys at 11-15 Canal. Haven't seen or looked for renderings, but they may be out there.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Well, Mosaik Property Management now has approval from Harbor East Community Council to build four towers on two separate parcels - 30 and 12 storeys at 42 Canal Street, and 30 and 8 storeys at 11-15 Canal. Haven't seen or looked for renderings, but they may be out there.

I'm not sure I'd consider those two properties on Canal St to be waterfront. To me, that would be the other side of the train tracks that run between the harbour and the rest of Dartmouth.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

I'm not sure I'd consider those two properties on Canal St to be waterfront. To me, that would be the other side of the train tracks that run between the harbour and the rest of Dartmouth.

Fair enough, except that there's precious little developable property between the tracks and the harbor anywhere in Dartmouth. Kings Wharf (already under intensive development) and the Dartmouth Cove area immediately to the north/east of it come to mind - and the latter is quite a small area.

There is a proposal for a cruise ship terminal further north (a terrible idea in my opinion, but nobody asked me).

The Canal Street towers I spoke of are just on the other (i.e., landward) side of the tracks, so while not technically having water frontage, they're clearly in the waterfront area.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Dartmouth Cove is a beautiful area with great potential. I can see pushing-out the shoreline ten or 20 metres with fill and then lining the new shoreline with wharf and floating dock much in the same manner as on the other side of the harbour. I don't see cruise ships being able to maneouvre in this area though.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

Dartmouth Cove is a beautiful area with great potential. I can see pushing-out the shoreline ten or 20 metres with fill and then lining the new shoreline with wharf and floating dock much in the same manner as on the other side of the harbour.

HRM and area residents have made it abundantly clear that infilling of Dartmouth Cove is not going to happen if they can possibly stop it, by whatever means.

I don't see cruise ships being able to maneouvre in this area though.

The proposed cruise ship terminal would not be in Dartmouth Cove. It would be north of Alderney Gate, about halfway to the Macdonald Bridge. There's a prominent, long-abandoned pier jutting into the harbor at an angle there which would be redeveloped.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

HRM and area residents have made it abundantly clear that infilling of Dartmouth Cove is not going to happen if they can possibly stop it, by whatever means.

I do recall reading about the kerfuffle regarding an application to infill the cove. I got the sense at the time that the applicant was thinking of infilling to the degree that new streets and large buildings could be built. I wouldn't support that either. I would support a gentle tidying-up of the shoreline to allow for recreational use and harbour interface for citizens. Perhaps my suggestion of 10 to 20 metres is beyond what would be considered as gentle? But I hear what you're saying, there will be folks who will want no change to the cove.


The proposed cruise ship terminal would not be in Dartmouth Cove. It would be north of Alderney Gate, about halfway to the Macdonald Bridge. There's a prominent, long-abandoned pier jutting into the harbor at an angle there which would be redeveloped.

Ahhh, that makes more sense. Though I wonder about the need for it. Then there's the issue of the amount of duplicate equipment, etc. that would be required to operate it. More jobs I suppose. I recall hearing years ago that wharf at Mill Cove was built to accommodate cruise ships. I've never seen one there.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

Ahhh, that makes more sense. Though I wonder about the need for it. Then there's the issue of the amount of duplicate equipment, etc. that would be required to operate it. More jobs I suppose. I recall hearing years ago that wharf at Mill Cove was built to accommodate cruise ships. I've never seen one there.

The need has been expressed by port authorities, as they're losing berths to infilling in Halifax to expand the container lay-down and transshipment area for the south-end container terminal. They won't be able to accommodate as many ships on the Halifax side simultaneously as they have been able to do up to now, and there are many days in the cruise season where we have 2-3 and occasionally even 4-5 ships visiting at a time.

But the Dartmouth side just isn't optimal for cruise passengers, most of whom will want to be in Halifax anyway. Certainly if I were a cruise ship passenger stopping in Halifax, I would not want to tie up in Dartmouth, no matter how nice it may be (and I say that from the perspective of a life-long Dartmouth resident). Let's be honest: there may be a few things to see in Dartmouth, but Halifax is the main event - it's where all of the real attractions and amenities are. The cruise industry is all about comfort and convenience; berthing in Dartmouth and then having to boat or bus it to Halifax is just a pain in the ass. Secondly, the Halifax side is in the lee of our prevailing winds, while the Dartmouth shore is much more weather-exposed.

Again, just my opinions, but I think they're fairly soundly-based. I really don't see Dartmouth being a cruise destination in itself, no matter what fantasies our civic boosters may have.

[Nouvellecosse]

I think if the cruise terminal was a close and pleasant walk to the ferry terminal then it would be fine. Nice even since the ferry is such a quintessential part of the HRM experience, oldest continually operating salt-water ferry in NA, etc. And they could give all the passengers a complementary transit card with an unlimited pass for their duration now that they're installing card readers. I don't see that as being a hassle, especially since a new terminal is being built and hopefully the schedule remains frequent.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

But the Dartmouth side just isn't optimal for cruise passengers, most of whom will want to be in Halifax anyway.

That’s the real crux of it. Every meaningful attraction is on the Halifax side, and everyone is going to be lining up to immediately get on the ferry. Dartmouth is a great neighbourhood experience that rewards people who want to travel off the usual tourist path, but it’s not a prime destination for cruise passengers who mostly just want to step off their ship and straight into bars and restaurants on a bustling waterfront, as well as tick the main tourist sites off their lists.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I think if the cruise terminal was a close and pleasant walk to the ferry terminal then it would be fine. Nice even since the ferry is such a quintessential part of the HRM experience, oldest continually operating salt-water ferry in NA, etc. And they could give all the passengers a complementary transit card with an unlimited pass for their duration now that they're installing card readers. I don't see that as being a hassle, especially since a new terminal is being built and hopefully the schedule remains frequent.

Uh, no. Cruise ship passengers don't want to go on another boat. And why you would want to expose them to Transit's awful experience is simply odd. But then again, so is the idea of docking a cruise ship in a part of Dartmouth that is partly residential, partly homeless shelters, and partly parking lots.

[MonctonRad]

I agree that moving the cruise ship terminal to the Dartmouth side of the harbour is a bad idea.

Tourists want to see the attractions on the Halifax side (Citadel, Public Gardens, Historic Properties etc). Dartmouth is a pale shadow in comparison.

I do agree that Dartmouth Cove should be developed and it's potential maximized, but mostly for the benefit of Dartmouthians in mind. If done sensibly and with due care, it may still become a tourism attraction in it's own right, and give Haligonians another reason the venture to the "dark side" on the other side of the harbour.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I agree that moving the cruise ship terminal to the Dartmouth side of the harbour is a bad idea.

The proposal is not to move the cruise terminal to Dartmouth. It's to supplement the existing terminal with additional berths in Dartmouth, since there's nowhere for it to expand on the Halifax side.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Uh, no. Cruise ship passengers don't want to go on another boat. And why you would want to expose them to Transit's awful experience is simply odd. But then again, so is the idea of docking a cruise ship in a part of Dartmouth that is partly residential, partly homeless shelters, and partly parking lots.

It happens in other places.

I've been on a cruise where the boat docked in Cozumel. We took a ferry to the mainland (Playa del Carmen), and then a coach to Tulum. Left in the morning and returned in the afternoon. It was a nice experience. I looked up the distance and the ferry is at least 45 minutes (17km) plus a 50 minutes drive to Tulum. The ferry is also on open ocean and not sheltered at all.

So by comparison having a berth in Dartmouth is much better. It's the same distance to the ferry terminal (a few hundred metres), then a quick 15 minutes to Halifax, and 45 minutes drive to Peggy's Cove.

So our version is half of the time and almost none of the seasickness.

It's a perfectly fine plan for those days that we have a lot of cruise ships docked. Put the smaller ships in Dartmouth, offer them transit day passes, and run an extra ferry if it is off-peak.

[Colin May]

Check the water depth at several Dartmouth locations :
http://fishing-app.gpsnauticalcharts....6630/-63.5684
No point posting a comment if you don't know the possible locations and the water depth

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Check the water depth at several Dartmouth locations :
http://fishing-app.gpsnauticalcharts....6630/-63.5684
No point posting a comment if you don't know the possible locations and the water depth

I have no idea why that would be relevant to us. None of us proposed the dock or the location; we're just reacting to the proposal which was for a site a little ways north of Alderney. I think we can safely say that any facility would be constructed once any depth concerns were addressed, either by extending the dock out far enough, through dredging, or both.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

It happens in other places.

I've been on a cruise where the boat docked in Cozumel. We took a ferry to the mainland (Playa del Carmen), and then a coach to Tulum. Left in the morning and returned in the afternoon. It was a nice experience. I looked up the distance and the ferry is at least 45 minutes (17km) plus a 50 minutes drive to Tulum. The ferry is also on open ocean and not sheltered at all.

So by comparison having a berth in Dartmouth is much better. It's the same distance to the ferry terminal (a few hundred metres), then a quick 15 minutes to Halifax, and 45 minutes drive to Peggy's Cove.

So our version is half of the time and almost none of the seasickness.

It's a perfectly fine plan for those days that we have a lot of cruise ships docked. Put the smaller ships in Dartmouth, offer them transit day passes, and run an extra ferry if it is off-peak.

For that matter, it wouldn't be unreasonable to contract a number of water taxis to take them directly from the ship to some predetermined point on the Halifax waterfront. Wouldn't be much more taxing than the stroll from the piers to the DT, or it could even be to a point where they can jump right onto a tour bus for some tour or activity they signed up for.

I mean, if it's just for overflow situations, maybe we are overthinking this a little.

[Keith P.]

Of course, on days like today when Transit can’t get the ferries to run at morning rush hour, stranding daily commuters due to their inability to run a service commuters can depend upon, it is all moot.

[Musquodoboit County]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...ront-1.7143080