The Official Lansdowne Park Conservancy Thread

[harls]

Continue your discussions here, please.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by jemartin

BMO Field, $60M
Saputo Stadium $41M ($15M 13,500 seats plus $26M expansion to 21,000 seats = $41M)

Both three sided.

You are talking 24,000 seats here, two sided with rain cover. A very basic stadium.

Cleanup is a Fed/Prov responsibility and is done with or without stadium and full rehabilitation in less than a year.

Case study McGill University Health Centre Montreal on old Westmount/Vendome similarly contaminated rail yards. Zero cost to Montreal.
It was also 3 times the cubic meter volume of Bayview and done in 15 months.

Does your artwork for the Bayview site provide for just a basic stadium?

Given its prominent location next to the Ottawa River Parkway, is that suitable?

I really don't think it would be appealing to have some bare bones structure going up at that location. Basically, the stadium from the rear would look much like the South side stands at Frank Clair Stadium, would it not?

In addition, the BMO comparison is not fair. You are talking about 2007 dollars, at least 4,000 more seats, and rain cover. Each of those items adds to the cost. Then you have to add in the cost of demolishing the remainder of Frank Clair site, remediating the site, and making major renovations to the Civic Centre. Only at that point, can you make a fair comparison with a renovation of Frank Clair Stadium.

You also say that we can ignore the cost of cleanup of the Bayview site but I remind you that there is only one taxpayer, regardless of which level of government is paying for the cleanup.

One last thing, is there enough room at Bayview to expand the stadium to 50,000 seats with temporary seating in order to accomodate the Grey Cup? This is critical. There is expectation that if we are to get a new CFL franchise, that we should be able to host the Grey Cup. I think the residents of Ottawa would want and expect this.

A new CFL stadium is being constructed in Winnipeg at a cost of $150M without the issues of dealing with an existing arena on the present site.

[Umpaidh]

From the last thread. And since you didn't answer my question regarding the rebuilding of the civic centre, I would put the cost at $60 million, when you consider the convention space you want above. Where would that money come from? I know you want to talk about steps, but you need to have at least a class D estimate from the beginning to know what your restraints are.

[QUOTE=jemartin;4855664]BMO Field, $60M
Saputo Stadium $41M ($15M 13,500 seats plus $26M expansion to 21,000 seats = $41M)

Both three sided.

You are talking 24,000 seats here, two sided with rain cover. A very basic stadium.

QUOTE]

You forget to mention the cost to redo the civic centre, and it's amenities. For comparison, the John Labatt Centre in London was build for $42 million in 2002. With a modest construction cost increase of 2% a year, that puts the cost just under $50 million in today's dollars.

The Saputo Stadium expansion isn't completed yet, (has it even started?). But, to use your numbers, the total cost for a 24 000 person stadium would be around $50 million.

Total that together, and you get $100 million. What is the estimated cost of the stadium in Ottawa? $110 million? And they are going for LEED certification, which neither Saputo field or the John Labatt Centre are. That generally adds 6-8% to construction costs. Just because there is a stadium on this site will not make it more expensive.

[DubberDom]

I will repost my threads for about a year ago on the costs to build the stadiums/arenas

I don't get the $250M price tag - that's my problem.

It cost $42Million to build the John Labatt Centre in London, add another $50-75 Million to build a basic 25000 seat outdoor stadium, you could sell off parts of the land to make some money and build one or both facilities at Bayview.

I'm not trying to be negative, but the Civic Centre sucks, there is no way to fix it - it is built under a stadium grandstand for Pete's sake!!. We need a nice 8000 seat arena (like JLC in London).

I bet for the same $125Million, we could build those two facilities and renovate Lansdowne ourselves.

Something smells fishy

recent examples of Arenas

Save-On Foods Centre in Victoria BC - 7400 capacity - 2005 - cost $30Million
John Labatt Centre in London ON - 9100 capacity - 2002 - cost $42Million
K-Rock Centre in Kingston - 6800 Capacity once complete - 2008 - cost $46Million

Stadiums:
BMO Field Toronto - 2007 - $62Million

You can build both and sell off parts of Lansdowne and turn the rest into greenspace and the total cost to the city would be about $100Million.

I smell a scam here, I doubt that Greenberg/Shenkman group will invest $125Million real dollars into this project

PS: I'm not a a NIMBY either - I live in Cumberland

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by DubberDom

I will repost my threads for about a year ago on the costs to build the stadiums/arenas

The figures total over $100M and when you add inflation since those arenas and stadiums were constructed, you are about what we are talking about today. And what you end up with is a 'basic' stadium and no parking on site. I think there is reasonable expectations that a renovated or new stadium will have a better design and better amenities than what it replaces.

I think given the sorry state of CFL ownership in Ottawa for the last 20+ years, we should really not underestimate the importance of the current opportunity. It is more than just concrete and seats and even dollars.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by DubberDom

I will repost my threads for about a year ago on the costs to build the stadiums/arenas

Your stadium comparisons are somewhat selective. BMO Field is both smaller and more basic than what is being considered for Ottawa. Even then, if you look at other MLS stadiums of the same size, the costs range up well over the $100 million mark. Perhaps more apt comparisons would be the current CFL proposals in Winnipeg ($137 million) or Hamilton ($102 million for 15,000 seat stadium, additional cost for expansion to 25,000 seats). Based on those comparable projects, the costs for Lansdowne Live do not look out of line at all.

[DubberDom]

Then why are we keeping the Civic Centre Arena? We need to demolish it and the north stands and build a proper stadium and build a new arena. The Civic Centre is a piece or crap arena.

How would dumping mopre money into this pit of an Arena improve it?? Look at it!!


Compare the John Labatt Centre


The city is being asked to pour $125Million into this project, and the other partners are said to provide another $125M (I call BS on that one). The Greenberg/Shenkman/Ruddy guys are no fools, they want this real estate for their own profit and got us by the nuts.

If the city was smart, they would apply for Federal and Provincial funding for a new stadium and/or arena (That's what WInnipeg did - the Feds and Privince both pitched in $40M each!!) , or enter into a P3 agreement. The Land value at Landsdowne is very high, we need to maximize this (ie Sell it!!)... how does the back end of the South Stand accentuate the appeal for the Rideau Canal??? Look at this beautiful view!!! WOw!!!

[phil235]

Originally Posted by DubberDom

Then why are we keeping the Civic Centre Arena? We need to demolish it and the north stands and build a proper stadium and build a new arena. The Civic Centre is a piece or crap arena.

How would dumping mopre money into this pit of an Arena improve it?? Look at it!!


Compare the John Labatt Centre


The city is being asked to pour $125Million into this project, and the other partners are said to provide another $125M (I call BS on that one). The Greenberg/Shenkman/Ruddy guys are no fools, they want this real estate for their own profit and got us by the nuts.

If the city was smart, they would apply for Federal and Provincial funding for a new stadium and/or arena, or enter into a P3 agreement. The Land value at Landsdowne is very high, we need to maximize this (ie Sell it!!)... how does the back end of the South Stand accentuate the appeal for the Rideau Canal??? Look at this beautiful view!!! WOw!!!

I agree that the Civic Centre is an odd arena, and if building from scratch, something like the JLC would be ideal.

However, look at your picture. All of the seats are full! Clearly it is working in its current form. And the concentration of seating on one side makes it a great venue for concerts, conventions, and other events like visits by dignitaries.

If, for argument's sake, you take a round $100 million for a new stadium, $50 million for an arena (JLC cost plus inflation), $40 million for a new parking structure (included in Lansdowne Live) and $30 million plus to demolish and remediate the site, plus the cost of rebuilding the community rooms under the arena, you are at $220 million plus. That is why spending $125 million for perfectly viable facilities makes sense in this case.

[phil235]

One additional point - the money from upper levels of government comes from a limited pot. If Ottawa were to seek funding for the stadium, it would mean less money for transit etc.

[DubberDom]

You mean less money to pay for transit like the $35Million we had to shell out to Siemens for nothing? ... or for our Grand Transit vision with no vision???

[phil235]

Originally Posted by DubberDom

You mean less money to pay for transit like the $35Million we had to shell out to Siemens for nothing? ... or for our Grand Transit vision with no vision???

Sadly, I don't think the payments for nothing would be eligible for federal funding.

[jemartin]

Originally Posted by phil235

Your stadium comparisons are somewhat selective. BMO Field is both smaller and more basic than what is being considered for Ottawa. Even then, if you look at other MLS stadiums of the same size, the costs range up well over the $100 million mark. Perhaps more apt comparisons would be the current CFL proposals in Winnipeg ($137 million) or Hamilton ($102 million for 15,000 seat stadium, additional cost for expansion to 25,000 seats). Based on those comparable projects, the costs for Lansdowne Live do not look out of line at all.

Actually Bomber stadium is $115M and has 33,000 seats.

From the CBC:

"The stadium is the major feature of a $137.5-million development on the site that will include a multiplex athletic facility for the university and its Bisons sports teams.

The Bomber stadium accounts for $115 million of the cost, which includes an inflatable dome that will cover the field in winter so university teams can use it during the CFL off-season."

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/st...#ixzz0pAR8H58y


That means a cost per seat of just over $3,500 ( a little high since there is a full on roof structure).

Nonetheless $3,500 per seat x 24,000 seats as in the case of Ottawa works out to $84M.

(roughly what I was telling you about new stadium costing being more efficient than old stadium restructuring).

[AuxTown]

That means a cost per seat of just over $3,500 ( a little high since there is a full on roof structure).

Dude, get your facts straight. They are not referring to a "full on roof structure". It will have a dome just like the one that Frank Claire has every winter for indoor soccer. Those things can't cost more than a couple million dollars.

[jemartin]

Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey

Dude, get your facts straight. They are not referring to a "full on roof structure". It will have a dome just like the one that Frank Claire has every winter for indoor soccer. Those things can't cost more than a couple million dollars.

Please refer to the link to the CBC article in the previous post.

The discussion was to supply costing for a 24,000 seat, two sided stadium with rain cover using real world examples.

The real world, and recent, article was dated last week, and used the new Bomber stadium at the U of M as a case study.

I made no mention of a full roof. I said a roof "structure" and that was at the Winnipeg stadium.

The photo in the CBC link is self explanatory....or should be.

Since a new stadium for 24,000 seats would not have that, the cost per seat would be lower, and thus a lower overall cost than $84M.

Summarized, and in simple terms, new stadium construction is typically 70% the cost of old stadium restructuring, as the example demonstrates.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by jemartin

Please refer to the link to the CBC article in the previous post.

The discussion was to supply costing for a 24,000 seat, two sided stadium with rain cover using real world examples.

The real world, and recent, article was dated last week, and used the new Bomber stadium at the U of M as a case study.

I made no mention of a full roof. I said a roof "structure" and that was at the Winnipeg stadium.

The photo in the CBC link is self explanatory....or should be.

Since a new stadium for 24,000 seats would not have that, the cost per seat would be lower, and thus a lower overall cost than $84M.

Summarized, and in simple terms, new stadium construction is typically 70% the cost of old stadium restructuring, as the example demonstrates.

Is a per seat average even a legitimate way to cost stadiums? It would seem that the more seats, the lower the marginal cost per seat, but I'm just guessing.

In any event, some of the $110 million for Lansdowne is for the renovations to the Civic Centre. The larger point is that amount budgeted for the stadium is right within the range of costs for similar stadiums built new.

[jemartin]

Originally Posted by phil235

Is a per seat average even a legitimate way to cost stadiums? It would seem that the more seats, the lower the marginal cost per seat, but I'm just guessing.

In any event, some of the $110 million for Lansdowne is for the renovations to the Civic Centre. The larger point is that amount budgeted for the stadium is right within the range of costs for similar stadiums built new.

The amount I have heard for the Civic Centre is less than $1M and will only be mechanical and electrical.

As to your belief that $110M for 24,000 seats works out to "within the range of costs for similar stadium built new" of 33,000 seats with a complicated roof and $115M doesn't add up.

The Winnipeg stadium has 38% more seats with 5% more cost.

Get down to the price per seat to simplify things.

As it stands the Lansdowne proposal is $4,600.00 per seat.

Winnipeg's new stadium is $3,500.00 per seat (and with a fancy roof structure).

5% is within range, this is a 25% difference, clearly not in range.

New stadium construction is the clear winner.

All this to say.......Build a new stadium at Bayview.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by jemartin

The amount I have heard for the Civic Centre is less than $1M and will only be mechanical and electrical.

As to your belief that $110M for 24,000 seats works out to "within the range of costs for similar stadium built new" of 33,000 seats with a complicated roof and $115M doesn't add up.

The Winnipeg stadium has 38% more seats with 5% more cost.

Get down to the price per seat to simplify things.

As it stands the Lansdowne proposal is $4,600.00 per seat.

Winnipeg's new stadium is $3,500.00 per seat (and with a fancy roof structure).


5% is within range, this is a 25% difference, clearly not in range.

New stadium construction is the clear winner.

All this to say.......Build a new stadium at Bayview.

Okay, assuming cost per seat is a legitimate way to compare stadiums (I think it oversimplifies things), then the Hamilton stadium seems to work out to $6800. That would put the Lansdowne proposal "clearly" in the range of similar projects, would it not?

[Umpaidh]

Jemartin, this thread is about the Lansdowne Park Conservancy. When is a more detailed plan going to see the light of day? You seem quite interested in talking about the estimated costs of someone else's plan, but have yet to give any estimates for what your group proposes. What are the costs associated with your plan. I know you say that the city isn't going to have to pay for the costs, but surely you can understand that the city isn't going to turn over this site to another governing body without seeing a structured plan? You are effectively asking for full run of the site for the foreseeable future, while providing less information than OSEG did in its preliminary plans, what 2 years ago? Can you see the irony in this when you complain about how they have gone about their business?

[Umpaidh]

Originally Posted by DubberDom

Then why are we keeping the Civic Centre Arena? We need to demolish it and the north stands and build a proper stadium and build a new arena. The Civic Centre is a piece or crap arena.

For the record, the arena is a hell of a place to watch a hockey game. I don't know how many OHL/QMJHL arenas you have been to, but this one definitely is among the best in the league. Don't just take my work for it, check out this http://www.ohlarenaguide.com/number02.htm. This guy went around the league and rated each arena. The civic centre placed second behind the Kitchener memorial auditorium. It did lose marks on its looks for sure, but that is why it would get this facelift.

Now back to Conservancy talk.

[jemartin]

Originally Posted by Umpaidh

Jemartin, this thread is about the Lansdowne Park Conservancy. When is a more detailed plan going to see the light of day? You seem quite interested in talking about the estimated costs of someone else's plan, but have yet to give any estimates for what your group proposes. What are the costs associated with your plan. I know you say that the city isn't going to have to pay for the costs, but surely you can understand that the city isn't going to turn over this site to another governing body without seeing a structured plan? You are effectively asking for full run of the site for the foreseeable future, while providing less information than OSEG did in its preliminary plans, what 2 years ago? Can you see the irony in this when you complain about how they have gone about their business?

Quite simply I was answering a question on stadium cost, new versus restructuring.

You cannot ignore the question, it is part of the Conservancy plan to say no to the stadium at Lansdowne for there are better places for one.

The heart of the matter is Lansdowne, but at the same time you show building new at another site is a better option, for cost and access reasons but mostly you stop tying up the park.

Now the park is freed up to explore as a park.

Detailed financials are coming, but nothing is being hidden, the basic information has been published in a link many times, you can see them at
www.vo-ao.ca/images/pdf/friendsoflpc.pdf

Step 1 is to consolidate the park under new management, away from City management. We estimate first year surplus of $500,000.00. Incorporation would take place immediately and membership drives would also begin immediately. Conservatively $250,000.00 will be raised in the first year. All trade shows and the Ex would stay.

Step 2 would be to commence rejuvenation of the site and would be to start with basic landscaping, removing large parts of the asphalt, etc....

Each year subsequent to that you do improvements in the .5M to 1M range.

It is an holistic approach, with each year the park getting better, and at no taxpayer cost.