Amalgamate Toronto, GTA West and Hamilton

[realcity]

I'm beginning to think the only way for Hamilton to get out of its 30 year rut is to join into one Megalopolis, with Toronto, Peel, Halton and Hamilton

For those that think we'll loose our identity. I don't believe that would happen. Look at local smaller amalgamations. Ancaster, Dundas are still referred to by name, even Westdale.

Economically we'll be better integrated with the wealth of the GTA. Social Services costs could be pooled. Transit can be seamless. One school board with but retain individual trustees. One mayor with many councilors. Our mayor now is only worth one vote anyway, same power as any councilor. We could have one master plan, like the Greenbelt and Places to Grow Act does now.

[SteelTown]

Right have 40 or so Toronto concillors and dilute it down further with perhaps 20 GTA councillors and have 15 or so Hamilton councillors.

[FairHamilton]

Yeah, and all those Harris Years amalgamations have been great and proved this sort of stuff pays off big time.......

[realcity]

and what we have now is not diluted by 7 suburban councilors and 7 city councilors? The population of the city is double the suburbs, but equal amount of council representation. I'd trust Toronto's 40 councilors to make better decisions then our 14. Look what decisions have made Toronto prosper and the decisions that have stagnated Hamilton. We made our mess ourselves and have no vision or political will to get out of it. So what? Stay the course? I'm just saying, something radical needs to be done.

This wasn't my idea. It was discussed on CBC radio on the weekend.

[SteelTown]

Originally Posted by realcity

and what we have now is not diluted by 7 suburban councilors and 7 city councilors? The population of the city is double the suburbs, but equal amount of council representation. I'd trust Toronto's 40 councilors to make better decisions then our 14. Look what decisions have made Toronto prosper and the decisions that have stagnated Hamilton. We made our mess ourselves and have no vision or political will to get out of it. So what? Stay the course? I'm just saying, something radical needs to be done.

This wasn't my idea. It was discussed on CBC radio on the weekend.

At least we can do something to change this with our City Council. There's talk we might get one extra ward on the Mountain for the next election, an extra Hamilton concillor. A system wide review will be done after the next election.

Now if we're stick with a Toronto/GTA council we wouldn't be able to do anything like that. If we did that than Toronto and the GTA will want a review of extra wards as well, further dilution.

[matt602]

I can't express how against this that I would be. This is not the solution to our horribly run city.

[realcity]

The Harris amalgamations weren't bad. Why is this the common sentiment? Is it because it was a Harris thing? I don't wear any one political stripe and foolishly only agree with that party. I judge every political decision on the decision only regardless of what Party made it. It's not proletariat against bourgeois anymore.

Hamilton's out of control taxes aren't because of amalgamation but because of a shrinking industrial tax base. The opposite of Mississauga never raising residential taxes because of a growing industrial/commercial tax base. Harris swapping social services for education has benefited Hamilton. If the province didn't run education we'd end up with the U.S. problem of certain areas have slum schools and rich areas have good schools. Hamilton schools would be much worse then say a school in Burlington if it remained that way. Education has to be equal for all. And the province keeps bailing us out of the social services costs anyway.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by realcity

The Harris amalgamations weren't bad. Why is this the common sentiment? Is it because it was a Harris thing? I don't wear any one political stripe and foolishly only agree with that party. I judge every political decision on the decision only regardless of what Party made it. It's not proletariat against bourgeois anymore.

Nothing to do with Harris, his government, or his/their policies. It has everything to do with that it failed to accomplish it's main objective, that was to save money through increased efficiency.

I'm more familiar with Toronto, as that's were I lived during and for the years immediate following. Amalgamation was to produce $300M in savings, but from all reports I've seen costs actually increased. If it saved $300M, heck if it saved $100M, or even $50M I'd say it was a good policy but it didn't. It failed.

I'm sure failure to achieve goals is the general theme for other amalgamations as well.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by realcity

Hamilton's out of control taxes aren't because of amalgamation but because of a shrinking industrial tax base. The opposite of Mississauga never raising residential taxes because of a growing industrial/commercial tax base. Harris swapping social services for education has benefited Hamilton. If the province didn't run education we'd end up with the U.S. problem of certain areas have slum schools and rich areas have good schools. Hamilton schools would be much worse then say a school in Burlington if it remained that way. Education has to be equal for all. And the province keeps bailing us out of the social services costs anyway.

Comparing Hamilton to Mississauga is like comparing apples to oranges. The city of Mississauga is only 40 years old while Hamilton is 150 years old. Mississauga's infrastructure is much newer and therefore in much better shape than Hamilton's. It costs more to repair existing sewers, water mains and roads than it does to build new systems. If I recall right I read recently that Mississauga is looking at 10% property tax increases for the forseeable future due to older infrastructure getting to the end of it's useful lifespan. I would think that most of the other suburban areas around Toronto will suffer the same fate in the near future.

As for the swapping of social services for education that is not really the case since education never was the resposibility of the city. The board of education set the tax rates for education not the city. The standards have always been set by the province so that a uniform quality of education exists throughout the province.

There is a good reason for the higher than usual costs for social services in this city. Because of our large stock of cheap housing we attract people from all over to the city. Places like Halton and Peel region are just too expensive for those on assistance to live. As a result they move here and to a lesser extent Toronto. Because of that our social services costs are overbloated. The province has recognized this and that is why they are subsidizing social services costs in this city.

[SteelTown]

I'll agree with you on the Harris amalgamations. They did good but he messed it up when he started downloading all the social funding to cities. Had he not done that the amalgamation would have sailed smoothly.

Now amalgamating the Region of Hamilton with the Region of Toronto is a bad idea. Region of Hamilton would be diluted down. We're already cast under Toronto's shadow as it is right now.

[matt602]

I don't understand how we are even discussing amalgamation when some of the hottest, most annoyed with issues are social service downloading and area rating: direct consequences of amalgamation.

I also refuse to believe that Hamilton would retain any sort of self identity if amalgamated into a mega metropolis thing. You can't just mush all of the cities between Toronto and Hamilton together and expect some kind of perfect, urban minded city council. It wouldn't work. No way.

[astroblaster]

i think this would destroy the last remnants of our civic pride

[Atticus]

"I don't understand how we are even discussing amalgamation when some of the hottest, most annoyed with issues are social service downloading and area rating: direct consequences of amalgamation."

]

While I don't think this idea has merit or will ever be seriously considered by the powers that be, I am puzzled about the above reference to amalgamation. Social services downloading happened province-wide to amalgamated as well as unamagamated (two-tier) municipalities. Area rating was a fact of life in the old Regional Government days and continues in most two tier municipalities in one form or another.

[realcity]

I believe something has to change. Change won't happen to Hamilton if we keep doing the same thing.

We're like that guy in ancient greek lore... for his eternal torture he had to keep rolling a log up a hill only to almost make it to the top and then the log gets too heavy and rolls over him and he start over again.

we make some progress, but it's one step forward one step back. I'd be happy for anything that overturns the money-lender' tables. Or perhaps we get what we deserve?

[SABBATICAL!]

I could see this causing dilution of Hamilton's identity as a whole, but being better for the condition of Hamilton's urban areas as services and policy directions improve. No?