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  #1  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2024, 10:15 AM
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VANRIDERFAN VANRIDERFAN is offline
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Public Transport - Prairies

There isn't any.

So I was back in the homeland for a week. Now most of my troubles were of my own doing, but it hit me right between the eyes that if you don't have a car, there is zero ability to travel anywhere within the Saskatoba Region.

My overall plan:
Fly into Winnipeg
Take the Airport Shuttle to Brandon
Meet the siblings in S MB
Take a bus from Brandon to Regina
Visit daughter in Regina
Fly back to Ottawa

What happened
Flight from Ottawa delayed an hour - Missed last shuttle to Brandon
(Tried to get a one way rental car but none available)
Able to stay at niece's place in Winnipeg
Had to wait for the afternoon shuttle, get to Brandon late afternoon. (Tried to get a one way rental car but none available)
Visit siblings
Find out that only bus running between Winnipeg and Calgary only runs on Fridays
Attempt to get a one way rental - none available
Arrange a meetup in Moosomin (bro takes me there and daughter picks me up) but that falls through due to other issues
Sister decides to help brother out and will take me to Regina
Try Enterprise one more time for a one way, none available. But wait, we may have one coming later today that you can have.
We wait til 4:30 only to be told that the car did not arrive.
Hit the road to Regina, and of course just past Alexander, my phone rings and its Enterprise, the car showed up and I can have it.
Huge sigh of relief from sis as we turn back to Brandon.
Take the car to Regina and then Fly back to Ottawa via Calgary.

Moral of the story is to fly to one city, rent a car and fly home from same city. But damn the days of buses from Winnipeg to Brandon or Regina and even the ones that went down a bunch of the PTH's are long long gone. Which is very sad.
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  #2  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2024, 1:11 PM
FactaNV FactaNV is offline
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I get that. It's sad to think that this is the state of transport when in the past you could take a train pretty well anywhere in the West. The private sector doesn't want to touch this because it's probably a money pit and the government doesn't want to touch this since it's probably a money pit. As a result the people suffer.
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  #3  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2024, 2:43 PM
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BlackDog204 BlackDog204 is offline
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Rideshare.

If the guy does not look like a serial killer, 99% of the time he is not.
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  #4  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2024, 3:04 PM
FactaNV FactaNV is offline
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Originally Posted by BlackDog204 View Post
Rideshare.

If the guy does not look like a serial killer, 99% of the time he is not.
Idk if in this day and age people would be willing to ride with complete strangers in a private setting. I personally lean more to towards minibuses myself with some full sized for city routes. Might work, might not. I think the path of least resistance at least would be WT taking over Winnipeg metro traffic and running lines to the nearby towns and cities, but then you run into the problem of who pays for it, where do the buses and drivers come from and how do you structure fares.
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  #5  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2024, 5:43 PM
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Originally Posted by FactaNV View Post
Idk if in this day and age people would be willing to ride with complete strangers in a private setting. I personally lean more to towards minibuses myself with some full sized for city routes. Might work, might not. I think the path of least resistance at least would be WT taking over Winnipeg metro traffic and running lines to the nearby towns and cities, but then you run into the problem of who pays for it, where do the buses and drivers come from and how do you structure fares.
The Winnipeg Metro Region needs to create a regional transportation authority, in my opinion, to solve the responsibility of things (assuming the province and WMR partners contribute).

I would love to see routes established within the WMR, and eventually some other city-to-city options within MB and SK/MN.
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  #6  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2024, 7:44 PM
FactaNV FactaNV is offline
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The Winnipeg Metro Region needs to create a regional transportation authority, in my opinion, to solve the responsibility of things (assuming the province and WMR partners contribute).

I would love to see routes established within the WMR, and eventually some other city-to-city options within MB and SK/MN.
To start it'd probably have to be limited to Selkirk, Steinbach maybe Headingley and then weekend runs to Birds Hill Park and maybe Winnipeg Beach, Grand Beach or Gimli. Get too in the weeds with smaller towns and it'd be a disaster. It'd be a money pit for a while but I bet once people get used to the idea, it'd at least be revenue neutral. Say $10 a way or something like that to incentivize people out of their cars, no parking, no gas money, no wear and tear, etc.
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  #7  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2024, 8:19 PM
FactaNV FactaNV is offline
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Meanwhile - in the East.

https://globalnews.ca/news/10675060/...-rail-project/

I get that this makes way more sense in a high density corridor like this but man, if they're getting the largest ever Canadian infrastructure project, to the tune of tens of billions of tax dollars, it sure would be nice to get a few hundred mil for regional and local transit in the rest of Canada.

"If it goes ahead, it will be the biggest Canadian infrastructure and transportation project in the 60 years since the St. Lawrence Seaway was built. It will likely cost taxpayers tens of billions of dollars."
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  #8  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2024, 8:21 PM
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Originally Posted by FactaNV View Post
To start it'd probably have to be limited to Selkirk, Steinbach maybe Headingley and then weekend runs to Birds Hill Park and maybe Winnipeg Beach, Grand Beach or Gimli. Get too in the weeds with smaller towns and it'd be a disaster. It'd be a money pit for a while but I bet once people get used to the idea, it'd at least be revenue neutral. Say $10 a way or something like that to incentivize people out of their cars, no parking, no gas money, no wear and tear, etc.
Agreed - there needs to be a hierarchy. The Winnipeg Metropolitan Region's Plan 20-50 lays out a handful of regional centres (Selkirk, Stonewall, and Niverville within the Metro region). I would say that these are a good start, especially since they have rail ROWs that could be used in the future for higher-order transportation. Collaboration with other municipalities and the provincial government could expand transportation out of the WMR.

Start with buses and work your way up over time. Hell, make a deal with Newflyer to add local jobs to make the vehicles and grow some local talent too.

Also - if you haven't checked it out yet, take a look at the Plan 20-50 for the region: Plan 20-50 (Page 63 has the map of regional centres).
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  #9  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2024, 4:18 AM
bodaggin bodaggin is offline
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Guys. Poparide already exists. Their UX is iffy, but rideshare is the solution to this.

It's digital hitch-hiking.

A car with an empty seat is passing by a rural roadway every 30 seconds to 2 minutes. No dedicated bus, van, or rail could every match this frequency. Ever. Rideshare demolishes the UX of any public transit system once network effect hits. Especially in low volume areas (like BFN MB).

The Manitoba market is not big enough for dedicated routes and rails and busses. Not enough people, not enough travel, and the majority of people already have cars. Please don't go pressing gooberment to blow millions on another dead end cause that the free-market is already actively solving.

Also, the Windsor/Toronto/Quebec corridor has 18 million people, half of Canada's population over a stretch barely longer than Winnipeg to Regina. Fast rail makes absolute sense there. The Windsor Corridor has absolutely no equivalence to BFN Prairies. Use rideshares, promote rideshares, drive for rideshares, start your own rideshares.

.... But this is not a public transit or government issue. Stop making it one.
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  #10  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2024, 2:13 PM
Draftsman Draftsman is offline
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Did you know....

CN Rail had 'Railiners' which were a single, self-propelled railcar (apparently CP Rail also had them). Anyway, CN operated one between Regina and Saskatoon. I remember when I was a little kid in the 1960's that my grandma would travel CN from Ontario to Saskatoon, and then take the Railiner from Saskatoon to Regina. I'm not sure when the service started or ended.
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  #11  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2024, 10:03 PM
RobD RobD is offline
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Bus service in SE Alberta

I moved to Medicine Hat over a year ago and as someone who does not own a car since I don't drive, the transportation options here are very limited.

There are a couple of daily shuttles to and from Calgary and Westjet has one or two daily flights to Calgary from the regional airport.

To take a bus to Regina from here is not a viable option if time is a factor and it usually is. Regina is approximately 4.5 hours east of here along the TransCanada highway and is divided the entire way.
To get there I would have to take a shuttle to Calgary, find my way to the Red Arrow or another bus service and head to Edmonton, down the Yellowhead to Lloydminster, North Battleford, Saskatoon and then finally arrive in Regina 12+ hours later.

To return to Medicine Hat, just reverse the trip.

There is no bus service that I am aware of between Calgary, Regina and Winnipeg. We all used to be able to travel across the country in the past and our population is steadily increasing. Some sort of transportation system should be readily available for everyone as it was before Greyhound pulled the plug.

The Lethbridge-Edmonton corridor is well served within Alberta. The rest of the province not so much if at all. Perhaps a P3 is what is needed.
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  #12  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2024, 11:18 PM
bodaggin bodaggin is offline
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To take a bus to Regina from here is not a viable option
$35-60 from Med Hat to Regina.
$30-50 from Med Hat to Calgary.

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  #13  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2024, 12:10 AM
cllew cllew is offline
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Originally Posted by Draftsman View Post
Did you know....

CN Rail had 'Railiners' which were a single, self-propelled railcar (apparently CP Rail also had them). Anyway, CN operated one between Regina and Saskatoon. I remember when I was a little kid in the 1960's that my grandma would travel CN from Ontario to Saskatoon, and then take the Railiner from Saskatoon to Regina. I'm not sure when the service started or ended.
Trains.com has an article on this, the last Budd Car service between Regina and Saskatoon ended in 1981 due to govt cuts. They were replaced by a normal Via Rail passenger service from Winnipeg and that was scrapped in 1984 with a routing change on the CN Maninline

Apparently the Bud Car route was so popular in the mid 1960's CN restricted railway pass holders from traveling for free during the evening rush hour service.
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  #14  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2024, 12:23 AM
Justanothermember Justanothermember is offline
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Originally Posted by bodaggin View Post
$35-60 from Med Hat to Regina.
$30-50 from Med Hat to Calgary.

I don't use this service, but I do wonder if there may be apprehension from travellers who are less inclined to ride in a small car with one or two other complete strangers, where there may be more of a perceived danger factor that may arise, especially amongst women. It may definitely not appear as safe as travelling on a publicly-run bus.
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  #15  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2024, 1:00 AM
bodaggin bodaggin is offline
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I don't use this service, but I do wonder if there may be apprehension from travellers who are less inclined to ride in a small car with one or two other complete strangers, where there may be more of a perceived danger factor that may arise, especially amongst women. It may definitely not appear as safe as travelling on a publicly-run bus.
Understandable criticism. But I could also point to a Portage bus incident with Mr Vince Li to the contrary. And the City of Winnipeg busses with crack heads and stabbings left and right. Bad stuff happens when you put random people together. There's no way completely around it. Publicly operated has 0 bearing on this.

At least with ridesharing you can vet your co-occupant. Females can go with females only, and avoid drivers with sketchy reviews or no history. I mean, people use Uber without issue, rideshare is no different.
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  #16  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2024, 2:28 PM
WildCake WildCake is offline
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Originally Posted by bodaggin View Post
Understandable criticism. But I could also point to a Portage bus incident with Mr Vince Li to the contrary. And the City of Winnipeg busses with crack heads and stabbings left and right. Bad stuff happens when you put random people together. There's no way completely around it. Publicly operated has 0 bearing on this.

At least with ridesharing you can vet your co-occupant. Females can go with females only, and avoid drivers with sketchy reviews or no history. I mean, people use Uber without issue, rideshare is no different.
I had never heard of Poparide until you mentioned it earlier in this thread. Given how new it is and how so few drivers have ratings, I would be apprehensive to use the service until it is more established, even as a white male. Although I am a late adopter of things like Amazon, Uber.

I agree with your sentiment that whether it is government run or through a rideshare, or privately owned like taxis, there's going to be some issues. It's the problems that the media latch on to that can help make or break a certain service unfortunately.

I remember the spate of articles around assaults or poor service from taxi drivers prior to Uber's arrival. I think that might have helped propel their service in the city. Regardless, shitty people will be able to get past most systems designed to filter them out, especially if they are being deliberate in their actions. You can find negative press on basically any mode of transportation because humans are humans.

As for the general theme of this conversation, I feel the prairies in particular are not currently ready for publicly funded inter-city public transport. Too little density, too spread out, and too established culture of car ownership.

To get people out of their cars and into busses, you need to make the pros outweigh the cons in their mind. So you would need fairly frequent and reliable service that doesn't cost more than operating a vehicle. If you only have an 8 am and a 5 pm bus servicing Niverville, people aren't going to structure their entire lives around that bus schedule and hope that it's never canceled or they miss it because a meeting went late. Or you have your nephew's dance recital after work and now you have to find a ride back to your exurb community because you missed the last bus. At least in the city, bus service runs later, a cab/uber isn't prohibitively expensive for the odd night out, or the odds of a friend/family member being able to drop you off on the way home are way higher.

You would need immense upfront funding with the understanding that there will be many years of little ridership before people start mode shifting outside the city. I know my example above was more commuter focused, but the same would apply to inter-city travel.

I do like your thoughts Bodaggin on the underused capacity of the cars on the road. Blabla car seems decently popular in Europe, so if Poparide takes off then maybe that can help alleviate some of the issues car-free individuals have with inter-city travel.
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  #17  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2024, 3:21 PM
FactaNV FactaNV is offline
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Originally Posted by WildCake View Post
I had never heard of Poparide until you mentioned it earlier in this thread. Given how new it is and how so few drivers have ratings, I would be apprehensive to use the service until it is more established, even as a white male. Although I am a late adopter of things like Amazon, Uber.

I agree with your sentiment that whether it is government run or through a rideshare, or privately owned like taxis, there's going to be some issues. It's the problems that the media latch on to that can help make or break a certain service unfortunately.

I remember the spate of articles around assaults or poor service from taxi drivers prior to Uber's arrival. I think that might have helped propel their service in the city. Regardless, shitty people will be able to get past most systems designed to filter them out, especially if they are being deliberate in their actions. You can find negative press on basically any mode of transportation because humans are humans.

As for the general theme of this conversation, I feel the prairies in particular are not currently ready for publicly funded inter-city public transport. Too little density, too spread out, and too established culture of car ownership.

To get people out of their cars and into busses, you need to make the pros outweigh the cons in their mind. So you would need fairly frequent and reliable service that doesn't cost more than operating a vehicle. If you only have an 8 am and a 5 pm bus servicing Niverville, people aren't going to structure their entire lives around that bus schedule and hope that it's never canceled or they miss it because a meeting went late. Or you have your nephew's dance recital after work and now you have to find a ride back to your exurb community because you missed the last bus. At least in the city, bus service runs later, a cab/uber isn't prohibitively expensive for the odd night out, or the odds of a friend/family member being able to drop you off on the way home are way higher.

You would need immense upfront funding with the understanding that there will be many years of little ridership before people start mode shifting outside the city. I know my example above was more commuter focused, but the same would apply to inter-city travel.

I do like your thoughts Bodaggin on the underused capacity of the cars on the road. Blabla car seems decently popular in Europe, so if Poparide takes off then maybe that can help alleviate some of the issues car-free individuals have with inter-city travel.
I agree with Boddagin that in smaller localities intercity would never work. For the foreseeable future noone, private or public is running a business down to Anola for example. That said, I'm a bit more optimistic and I could see something working between cities. It would need to be more convenient and cheaper than driving which is tough in this day and age but I can't see a reason someone from Brandon needs an automobile to get to Winnipeg and I can guarantee there are hundreds of people a day making that trip, be it for leisure, medical appointments, shopping trips, etc. It would be a money pit to start certainly but I think you can really introduce of mode shifting if it's reliable and convenient. It might help some people spread out of Winnipeg too. The province desperately needs to grow cities outside of Winnipeg who have much more capacity for expansion, Winnipeg's sanitation utilities can't keep up as it is. The only way I see towns and cities growing is firstly and most importantly by incentivizing job growth in those areas and by ensuring reliable transportation and logistics networks.
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  #18  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2024, 3:27 PM
bodaggin bodaggin is offline
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...Bunch of good points...
All good points. Not shilling Poparide either. They just have 1 million users, so go with the one that gets traction. Good points on the high volume corridors (IE Steinbach). If demand is there, busses may make sense, especially for consistent commuters. Start small, test the waters.

But as you say, user experience is paramount. If rider needs to drive locally to a bus stop, catch a commuter to Winnipeg, then transfer to the city bus network; the total trip time becomes unattractive. Riders want 3 things: Speed first, Cost second, and Comfort/Privacy third. In that order.

But government isn't needed for this. If the guys above are passionate about this start a shuttle business!

Step 1: Get Traffic Volumes Scour public data. Spend $50 on Facebook ads to find people actually interested in the service. Get some warm leads and some start/endpoints. And times. Ramp up until you collect 5x the names you need to survive.

Step 2: Pick Corridor(s) Determine which routes have the volume to sustain a service. Start with the busiest first, for best chance of success.

Step 3: Get a Bus Use your pre-market research to get a loan. A mini-bus goes for $50k - $150k. Find a driver who is commuting the route anyway, to reduce your costs.

Step 4: Start Service Start your runs. Continue your traffic research for route expansions. If you have a weekday commuter service. The same bus can do weekend lake runs too. Keep filling as many gaps as feasible. Add busses as needed.

Business solves problems. Govt creates problems. I want people solving problems directly. Not getting gov to create more problems for 1000x the price.
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  #19  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2024, 4:14 PM
cllew cllew is offline
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I recall somewhere on TV a few years ago seeing (maybe on 60 minutes) there was a person who was driving into work in California but being a single driver he could never get in the HOV Lane. He was talking to a neighbor about the traffic gridlock and they decided to buy a used MCI coach and sell seats on the bus to their neighbors as a large car pool. The drop off/pickup point downtown is a subway station so the people can get to their end point that way. There is some place where they park the bus during the day.

A few of the riders went and got their CDL's so they rotate driving on a schedule and it runs on break even basis.

This segment was pre covid so I don't know if they are still doing this daily large scale private car pool.
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  #20  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2024, 4:16 PM
bodaggin bodaggin is offline
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(cllew: Bingo. That's exactly how you start these things. On the ground.)

I should add. This whole game is going to get turned on its head when Robo-Taxi releases. Especially for sub 300km trips. Anything longer and EV has to stop too many times for recharge.

Recent FSD versions look close to sufficient. I'd argue they already are for highway use only.

It's going to surprise people, because once FSD is stable, the 5 million Tesla cars on the road right now will instantly be turned into self-driving taxis. Overnight. Like flicking a switch. Follow this closely.
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