Petition against pro-Chinese Communist celebration by Vancouver city councillor

[alps]

CBC: Chinese flags and red scarves spark debate at Vancouver city hall

Hi guys. Sorry, this isn't too city-related but I find the news story above disappointing and I'm disheartened to see that the petition has so few signatures.

My family fled China (and eventually came to Canada) following the Communist revolution, thankfully escaping the famine and atrocities of the following decades. Here in Hong Kong (a supposedly autonomous territory) we have seen increasing influence of the Chinese government in recent years (often via the Hong Kong puppet administration), including denying Hong Kongers the right to elect their leader through universal suffrage, efforts to implement pro-Communist, anti-democratic curriculum in public schools, increasing marginalisation of the Cantonese language in favour of Mandarin, the kidnapping and disappearance of numerous booksellers from Hong Kong, smear campaigns and revenge against academics who take a political stance, like Johannes Chan and Lau Siu Lai, political interference in university affairs generally, banning popular candidates from election on the basis of their political beliefs, electoral fraud, interference of the China Liaison office in the LegCo elections, etc etc. It seems endless and many of Hong Kong's young people feel hopeless.

Meanwhile in mainland China, which unlike Hong Kong lacks a free media and an independent judiciary, the government has just jailed a human rights lawyer for 12 years amid a wider crackdown against human rights activists, having detained hundreds of lawyers in the past couple years.

What angers me above all is councillor Jang's suggestion that criticism of his actions should be dismissed as "racism" or anti-China sentiment. This guy should really consider a second career writing for Chinese state media. He can say these things on his own time but I strongly object to an elected Canadian official raising this flag in front of a Canadian public building. Through these actions we are endorsing something that completely clashes with the Canadian values of freedom and democracy.

PETITION: Vancouver Mayor and City Councillors: Request apology and resignation of Vancouver City Councillor Kerry Jang

[whatnext]

Valid points. Do we raise the US flag on the 4th of July?

Interestingly no English language media was invited to this event.

[logan5]

Who in the world thought this would be a good idea? The city as a whole is already pretty uncomfortable with how much Chinese influence there is. Locals are going to interpret this as part of the supposed take over.

[LeftCoaster]

I'm no supporter of the PRC but Canada is a free country and if these guys want to march then that's their right.

As for the city councilor, well if this is truly an issue, that will be decided on election day.

[someone123]

Situations like this are tricky. Not many people here aside from those of Chinese descent are going to have much of a handle on this symbolism and nuance, even if it's extremely obvious to people who have lived somewhere like Hong Kong.

I do agree that we'd be a lot better off if there were more public debate and if the debate were focused more on the substance of the matter rather than the motives of the people participating. This is true not just for events like this but for any kind of issue, and it doesn't depend on the supposedly motivating character flaw. Today it's racism but in the past it might have been communist sympathies, a lack of patriotism, or a lack of religious conviction.

[ue]

Originally Posted by someone123

Situations like this are tricky. Not many people here aside from those of Chinese descent are going to have much of a handle on this symbolism and nuance, even if it's extremely obvious to people who have lived somewhere like Hong Kong.

I do agree that we'd be a lot better off if there were more public debate and if the debate were focused more on the substance of the matter rather than the motives of the people participating. This is true not just for events like this but for any kind of issue, and it doesn't depend on the supposedly motivating character flaw. Today it's racism but in the past it might have been communist sympathies, a lack of patriotism, or a lack of religious conviction.

Woah. I never linked the two together before; brilliant insight, thanks!

[geotag277]

I'm missing the communist angle here.

They flew the flag of China. Many people from Vancouver come from China. Many are proud of their country. Red happens to be a very patriotic color in China. Western thinking attaches disproportionate communist meaning to this color.

Of course China has a past and current history with human rights violations (just like almost every other country, including Canada) - but just because you fled the "Communist revolution" doesn't mean no one should be allowed to fly the Chinese flag anywhere.

Saying this is similar to saying just because Canada ran residential schools no one should be allowed to fly the Canadian flag ever.

It is also important to note that many modern policies in China are a reaction to the mistakes that happened during the cultural revolution. There are generations of people who group up with these reformist policies and have seen China grow into a global powerhouse, many to the benefit of themselves, their friends, their family, and their communities.

That said, I welcome the protests and calling attention to current social issues in countries is never a bad thing. But it is also important to realize you are talking about a country's flag, many people are proud of their country, and it isn't so far removed from domestic patriotism which glosses over historical and modern errors.

[whatnext]

dupe

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by geotag277

I'm missing the communist angle here.

They flew the flag of China. Many people from Vancouver come from China. Many are proud of their country. Red happens to be a very patriotic color in China. Western thinking attaches disproportionate communist meaning to this color.

Of course China has a past and current history with human rights violations (just like almost every other country, including Canada) - but just because you fled the "Communist revolution" doesn't mean no one should be allowed to fly the Chinese flag anywhere.

Saying this is similar to saying just because Canada ran residential schools no one should be allowed to fly the Canadian flag ever.

It is also important to note that many modern policies in China are a reaction to the mistakes that happened during the cultural revolution. There are generations of people who group up with these reformist policies and have seen China grow into a global powerhouse, many to the benefit of themselves, their friends, their family, and their communities.

That said, I welcome the protests and calling attention to current social issues in countries is never a bad thing. But it is also important to realize you are talking about a country's flag, many people are proud of their country, and it isn't so far removed from domestic patriotism which glosses over historical and modern errors.

And ethnic Chinese have suffered the most at the hands of the Communist Party of China. You can pretty much find headlines every day outlining the appalling human rights violations. Just from today:

Joshua Wong, the student activist who became a global symbol of the fight for democracy in Hong Kong, has reportedly been detained in Thailand following a request from China and will shortly be flown back to Hong Kong...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...na-deportation

A Canadian activist has joined a group of British MPs in calling on Britain and Canada to take a harder line on human-rights abuses in China.

Anastasia Lin, who made headlines last year when China banned her from entering the country to compete in the Miss World pageant, told a panel discussion at the Conservative Party’s annual convention here that the government of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has gone too soft on China.

“I do believe that right now the approach of our Liberal government in Canada is unfortunately a soft line,” Ms. Lin said during the discussion. “And, well, when you get too close to a panda, one day, it’s going to bite your finger off.”..
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...2252717/?ord=1

[geotag277]

Canada has a laundry list of human rights violations in it's history as well, as well as several active contemporary problem:

https://www.hrw.org/americas/canada

You can ask a First Nation destitute alcoholic who spent half a life time taking abuse in residential schools how they feel about the Canadian flag. He probably won't care about the relative prosperity and freedom enjoyed by Canadians too much.

The end stop of your train of thought is that no one can ever be proud or patriotic about their country until the country itself has a spotless record. A noble sentiment perhaps, but let's not use double standards. If it's true of China, it must be true of UK, USA, Canada, and everybody else. Plenty of sins to go around in that company.

That said, shining lights on human rights abuses around the world is never really a bad thing.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by geotag277

You can ask a First Nation destitute alcoholic who spent half a life time taking abuse in residential schools how they feel about the Canadian flag. He probably won't care about the relative prosperity and freedom enjoyed by Canadians too much.

Last year on Canada Day here in Kingston, an Iroquois activist group publically burned a Canadian flag.

• Video Link

Reaction from one side: http://www.mediacoop.ca/story/anti-c...y-parade/36077
Reaction from the other: http://www.intelligencer.ca/2016/07/...-were-pathetic

The youtube video made rounds on social media and funnily enough, it was commonly posted by people who used it to complain about unloyal immigrants

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Canada has a laundry list of human rights violations in it's history as well, as well as several active contemporary problem:

https://www.hrw.org/americas/canada

You can ask a First Nation destitute alcoholic who spent half a life time taking abuse in residential schools how they feel about the Canadian flag. He probably won't care about the relative prosperity and freedom enjoyed by Canadians too much.

The end stop of your train of thought is that no one can ever be proud or patriotic about their country until the country itself has a spotless record. A noble sentiment perhaps, but let's not use double standards. If it's true of China, it must be true of UK, USA, Canada, and everybody else. Plenty of sins to go around in that company.

That said, shining lights on human rights abuses around the world is never really a bad thing.

Which is why I asked if Vancouver City Hall raises the Russian flag on June 12, the American flag on July 4 etc, or if this is just special treatment for China, or just more vote pandering by the pathetic Vision Vancouver party.

[holhm22]

Originally Posted by logan5

Who in the world thought this would be a good idea? The city as a whole is already pretty uncomfortable with how much Chinese influence there is. Locals are going to interpret this as part of the supposed take over.

HK Vancouverites as well will think so

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Which is why I asked if Vancouver City Hall raises the Russian flag on June 12, the American flag on July 4 etc, or if this is just special treatment for China, or just more vote pandering by the pathetic Vision Vancouver party.

Apparently it is a service city hall offers and any group can organize to raise whatever flag they want. For some reason I doubt raising the Russian flag would be nearly as controversial as this.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...flag-1.3789155

According to the statement, other flags raised this year include those of Greece, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Slovenia, the Philippines, Indonesia and Mexico.

When they are raised, they do not replace the Canadian flag, which is flown on top of city hall.

Funny how there was not a peep about all those other flags, but when the largest minority group in Vancouver raises the flag of their home country, people are up in arms. Strange.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Funny how there was not a peep about all those other flags, but when the largest minority group in Vancouver raises the flag of their home country, people are up in arms. Strange.

Here's an example comment from the petition:

I'm a resident of Vancouver. My family and I suffered greatly under that national flag. During the infamous Cultural Revolution, the red guards wearing red scarves came to our home and took everything valuable. They abused my aging grandmother and threatened my parents. The current justice system in China is not separated from its Communist Party control. Many activists are imprisons. No, I don't want to see the Chinese national flag raised in the city of Vancouver on civic property and by a city counsellor.

Written by a Meena Wong.

For the most part it seems like it is Vancouverites of Chinese descent who took issue with this, while a lot of others were oblivious (I hadn't heard about it until this thread, and I don't have very strong opinions either way).

It seems like a stretch to suggest that the opposition to this flag-raising ceremony is due to racist sentiment, which I guess is what you were hinting at above (why not be direct about it if that is what you think?).

And earlier you said:

Originally Posted by geotag277

I'm missing the communist angle here.

They flew the flag of China. Many people from Vancouver come from China. Many are proud of their country. Red happens to be a very patriotic color in China. Western thinking attaches disproportionate communist meaning to this color.

But the petition attempts to explain the symbolism, as do a bunch of the comments. Did you read the linked pages? You can reject the explanation given but it's strange to say that you don't see a reason behind the opposition when the explanation was in the post that started this thread.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by geotag277

I'm missing the communist angle here.

Red scarves are a well-known emblem of Communist youth movements in multiple countries. They are particularly linked to the atrocities carried out by overzealous young people during the Cultural Revolution in China. Without commenting on the issue of the flag-raising per se, the red scarves at that ceremony represented an unambiguous provocation to ethnic Chinese who have suffered from Communist persecution.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by someone123

Here's an example comment from the petition:

Written by a Meena Wong.

For the most part it seems like it is Vancouverites of Chinese descent who took issue with this, while a lot of others were oblivious (I hadn't heard about it until this thread, and I don't have very strong opinions either way).

It seems like a stretch to suggest that the opposition to this flag-raising ceremony is due to racist sentiment, which I guess is what you were hinting at above (why not be direct about it if that is what you think?).

And earlier you said:


But the petition attempts to explain the symbolism, as do a bunch of the comments. Did you read the linked pages? You can reject the explanation given but it's strange to say that you don't see a reason behind the opposition when the explanation was in the post that started this thread.

Meena Wong was COPE's mayoral candidate in the last civic election. Meanwhile as you point out, and geotag seems unable to process, it is ethnically Chinese most outraged by this:

Four local immigrant groups from the Chinese and Taiwanese-Canadian communities are calling for Kerry Jang to apologize and resign as a city councillor. This after he wore a communist scarf and raised China’s flag at City Hall last week.

“Humanity? I don’t think so, nobody thinks so,” says Albert Xi, who spoke in front of Vancouver City Hall at a protest on Thursday afternoon. “Communism? Does anyone think communism represents humanity? Here? In all the world? I don’t think so. It’s a common understanding.”

Xi is a Canadian citizen from Mainland China, who says the regime has killed and imprisoned friends of his, and he rejects comments from local politicians that China is “changing.”...

http://www.news1130.com/2016/10/06/v...ty-councillor/

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Meanwhile as you point out, and geotag seems unable to process, it is ethnically Chinese most outraged by this

I can certainly understand why Taiwan Chinese have a problem with it (shouldn't that be rather obvious? they "lost" politically). And I can certainly understand why Chinese who fled in 1960/1970s era China and haven't learnt a thing about China since have a problem with it.

What I am having trouble understanding is why you have such a problem with it, and furthermore how you as a resident of Vancouver seem unaware that city hall offers this flag raising service to whatever group wants to organize it, and furthermore how you didn't say a peep about the other countries flags, who themselves have an extremely checkered history and current relationship with human rights, are raising their flag at city hall in Vancouver?

Head scratcher.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by geotag277

What I am having trouble understanding is why you have such a problem with it, and furthermore how you as a resident of Vancouver seem unaware that city hall offers this flag raising service to whatever group wants to organize it, and furthermore how you didn't say a peep about the other countries flags, who themselves have an extremely checkered history and current relationship with human rights, are raising their flag at city hall in Vancouver?

Head scratcher.

I don't see anywhere where he said he had a major problem with it, and he definitely brought up questions about other countries' flags, and I doubt that the average person is very in tune with their city hall's flag policy (or did you mean "you" in a generalized sense?)

It's an issue because a lot of people seem to be offended by it. They don't necessarily need to be "on the losing side" to be offended. And no, not every flag/country will have that type of controversy attached to it, even if none are perfect.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by geotag277

I can certainly understand why Taiwan Chinese have a problem with it (shouldn't that be rather obvious? they "lost" politically). And I can certainly understand why Chinese who fled in 1960/1970s era China and haven't learnt a thing about China since have a problem with it.

What I am having trouble understanding is why you have such a problem with it, and furthermore how you as a resident of Vancouver seem unaware that city hall offers this flag raising service to whatever group wants to organize it, and furthermore how you didn't say a peep about the other countries flags, who themselves have an extremely checkered history and current relationship with human rights, are raising their flag at city hall in Vancouver?

Head scratcher.

I see, it is understandable they would be upset because Taiwanese are Losers and those who fled Communist oppression are apparently Quitters in your book.

I'd expect Ukrainians too have the same negative reaction if Russia's flag was raised over City Hall. Fortunately no councillors have been stupid enough to pander to that government in such a fashion.