NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[SkyscrapersOfNewYork]

A station's hot air
Share Print Email Comment By Erik Engquist and Jeremy Smerd

The state and the city have re-entered negotiations with Vornado Realty Trust and The Related over the sale of 1 million square feet of air rights associated with the new Moynihan Station, says the new president of the Moynihan Station Development Corp., Timothy Gilchrist. The developers entered into a memorandum of understanding with the state in 2006 to develop the Farley Post Office into a new train station and to use the air rights to build an adjacent mixed-use development, topped by a 67-story tower. But the plan, including $110 million from the sale of the air rights, was never approved by the Public Authorities Control Board. Now that initial construction contracts on the $267 million first phase of the station were approved last week, attention is turning to the sale of the building's 2.5 million square feet of transferable air rights, of which Related and Vornado have dibs on the first 1 million.

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TE02/100829957










http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...1t:429,r:2,s:0

[KVNBKLYN]

Um, it's strange that you're starting this post a day after this project was put on hold. http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...temporary.html

Also, the story you posted (without a link) is about the new NJ Transit expansion of Penn Station under 34th Street, not Moynihan Station as stated in the title, which is the redevelopment of the Farley Post Office into a new entrance to the existing platforms at Penn Station. And the renderings you posted are old renderings of the Moynihan project and of an idea for the redevelopment of the main part of Penn Station if Madison Square Garden had been moved to 9th Avenue (and which is not happening now in light of MSG's refusal to move and currently under-construction renovations of the existing MSG).

[SkyscrapersOfNewYork]

Originally Posted by KVNBKLYN

Um, it's strange that you're starting this post a day after this project was put on hold. http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...temporary.html

Also, the story you posted (without a link) is about the new NJ Transit expansion of Penn Station under 34th Street, not Moynihan Station as stated in the title, which is the redevelopment of the Farley Post Office into a new entrance to the existing platforms at Penn Station. And the renderings you posted are old renderings of the Moynihan project and of an idea for the redevelopment of the main part of Penn Station if Madison Square Garden had been moved to 9th Avenue (and which is not happening now in light of MSG's refusal to move and currently under-construction renovations of the existing MSG).

well for one it need a home somewhere on SSP,and as for the article it does mention the station. i just posted the latest article that had news about it. when the project gets back up here will be a place to post news.

[KVNBKLYN]

Originally Posted by SkyscrapersOfNewYork

well for one it need a home somewhere on SSP,and as for the article it does mention the station. i just posted the latest article that had news about it. when the project gets back up here will be a place to post news.

The ARC project has its own thread that hasn't been updated in a while: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...light=moynihan

And I'd just like to reiterate that the renderings you posted have nothing to do with the ARC project and the ARC project has nothing to do with the Moynihan Station project, which is the title of this thread. They are two distinct transportation projects, ARC and Moynihan, and you seem to be confusing them here.

[SkyscrapersOfNewYork]

Originally Posted by KVNBKLYN

The ARC project has its own thread that hasn't been updated in a while: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...light=moynihan

And I'd just like to reiterate that the renderings you posted have nothing to do with the ARC project and the ARC project has nothing to do with the Moynihan Station project, which is the title of this thread. They are two distinct transportation projects, ARC and Moynihan, and you seem to be confusing them here.

no....im not confusing them,as i said it had mentioned Moynihan station so i just added it to this thread to show that theres still talking about Moynihan station,i just added yet another article to satisfy you.

[KVNBKLYN]

Originally Posted by SkyscrapersOfNewYork

no....im not confusing them,as i said it had mentioned Moynihan station so i just added it to this thread to show that theres still talking about Moynihan station,i just added yet another article to satisfy you.

Look, I'm sorry to belabor this, but the first article you posted was all about ARC and only mentioned Moynihan in passing, yet the thread is called Moynihan Station and most of the renderings you've posted are of the various iterations of Moynihan Station over the past ten years (and none of them particularly relevant today since it's being redesigned again). And that last rendering has nothing to do with anything since it was only a concept that was thrown out there to re-envision what the main part of Penn Station could be like if MSG were moved to 9th Avenue - but that is not happening now and MSG is staying put.

If you want to call this thread Penn Station redevelopment, then that would cover all these projects. But Moynihan is a particular project that doesn't encompass the rest of Penn Station or its proposed expansion. And ARC is not Moynihan.

[KVNBKLYN]

If you want to learn about the new (now on hold) tunnel under the Hudson and the expansion of Penn Station, look here: http://www.arctunnel.com/

If you want to learn about the now under construction renovation of the Farley Post Office into the so-called Moynihan Station (which, despite its name, isn't a new station, but only a new entrance to the existing platforms of Penn Station), then look here: http://www.empire.state.ny.us/Subsid...MSDC/MSDC.html

And finally, the redevelopment of MSG is discussed here: http://www.msg.com/events/transformation

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by KVNBKLYN

Um, it's strange that you're starting this post a day after this project was put on hold. http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...temporary.html

Also, the story you posted (without a link) is about the new NJ Transit expansion of Penn Station under 34th Street, not Moynihan Station as stated in the title, which is the redevelopment of the Farley Post Office into a new entrance to the existing platforms at Penn Station. And the renderings you posted are old renderings of the Moynihan project and of an idea for the redevelopment of the main part of Penn Station if Madison Square Garden had been moved to 9th Avenue (and which is not happening now in light of MSG's refusal to move and currently under-construction renovations of the existing MSG).

You seem confused.

First, ARC was put to a 30-day cost review. It is not on hold. Work is going on right now. Only new contracts cannot be signed for 30 days.

Second, and more important, ARC has NOTHING to do with this thread. Moynihan Station is a completely different project. ARC will not even serve Moynihan, and even if it did, it's development is totally separate.

[Rail>Auto]

A few things here...

1. I'm glad MSG isn't going to get demolished. Don't get me wrong, I miss Penn Station but I'm one of the few that like the current design of the garden.

2. Now that MSG isn't moving into Farley what will happen to that back part of the building?

3. Why build a new Penn Station instead of incorporating the entire rail station into Farley?

4. I wish they would demolish that building in front of the Garden and build those skyscrapers.

Overall, the plan still looks good for the most part.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Rail>Auto

3. Why build a new Penn Station instead of incorporating the entire rail station into Farley?

The Long Island Railroad is the largest user of Penn Station, and the LIRR platforms won't be moved. NJ Transit uses different platforms, and those platforms will be extended west, which will put them beneath the Farley Building, with access from above in the new Moynihan Station. Think of it in terms of an airport, with different terminals.

Originally Posted by Crawford

ARC was put to a 30-day cost review. It is not on hold. Work is going on right now. Only new contracts cannot be signed for 30 days.

They are seeking new ways to plug the funding gap, including adding a surcharge to NJ Transit passengers (even though there has just been an increase). But in the end, it will double capacity into Manhattan, and the oppurtunity to do it now can't be wasted. It could end up like the Second Avenue subway, doomed to decades of delays.

[KVNBKLYN]

Originally Posted by Crawford

You seem confused.

First, ARC was put to a 30-day cost review. It is not on hold. Work is going on right now. Only new contracts cannot be signed for 30 days.

Second, and more important, ARC has NOTHING to do with this thread. Moynihan Station is a completely different project. ARC will not even serve Moynihan, and even if it did, it's development is totally separate.

There's a whole lotta confusion going around this thread! You probably can't glean this from reading through the posts, but the original post of this thread originally had a long article about ARC mixed with renderings of ARC and renderings of Moynihan Station. The starter of this thread edited his first post to get rid of the references to ARC after I pointed out exactly what you just pointed out to me, which is that ARC and Moynihan have nothing to do with each other.

[NYguy]

Shown below are the renderings (that have often changed) of the station itself that will be built into the Farley Post Office Building in a later phase...

Originally Posted by SkyscrapersOfNewYork

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TE02/100829957

[NYguy]

Another rendering of the new Moynihan Station with a potential MSG on the western end...




And this is the rendering that shows the rebuilt Penn Station accross the street from Moynihan Station...(Farley)





A version of a massive skyscraper complex that was being planned as a part of the Moynihan/Penn Station redevelopment (before the towers were dropped from the plan)...




The Farley Building...

[hammersklavier]

The renderings of Moynihan's concourse start to come close, in quality, to pictures of the old Penn Station concourse, which makes me want to jump for joy and cry at the same time...is there an emoticon for that?

[Obey]

Man, I really want this to happen!

[BStyles]

I like the truss design. Trusses mixed with stone arches dignifies any rail station.

[SkyscrapersOfNewYork]

Rail advocates: Cut link to NYC's planned 34th St. Station, save $3B

hat's the message of a group of rail advocates, including a retired Long Island Railroad executive, who contend that $3 billion can be cut out of the proposed $8.7 million second Hudson River project by doing that, and save it from being scuttled by the Christie administration for fiscal reasons.

Members of the Regional Working Rail Group said their arguments have more validity now that Gov. Chris Christie has questioned if the state can afford the project, which federal officials fear could top $10 billion over time.

"I hope they'll look at the cost of the current project and an alternative that will clearly save them money," said Joseph Clift, a member of the Regional Rail Working Group and retired LIRR director of planning.

To do so means returning to one of the alternative plans to send trains to Penn Station, instead of to a proposed deep cavern station about 150 feet under 34th Street. That plan, known as alternative G, was rejected by NJ Transit because of engineering and geological issues.

But Clift said that although some of those issues are "engineering challenges," they are not "fatal flaws," as NJ Transit officials have contended.

"We say kill the 34th Street station plan and go back to the draft environmental impact statement plan of February 2008 and build the route to Penn Station. It will save $3 billion. . . . The savings are from not doing the route to 34th Street," Clift said during a walking tour of the tunnel route from the Hudson River to Penn Station through Midtown Manhattan.

Several legislators have taken the tour, and information about resurrecting the Penn Station route has been sent to Christie and Transportation Commissioner James Simpson.

Eliminating the deep cavern tunnel and station could reduce or even eliminate the state's share, which would come from New Jersey Turnpike Authority Revenues and from the almost-broke state Transportation Trust Fund.

http://www.app.com/article/20101001/...tation-save-3B

[SkyscrapersOfNewYork]

Christie spokesman denies Hudson River rail tunnel plans have been killed

"The governor spoke to CNN in Illinois and said categorically there has been no decision,'' said spokesman Kevin Roberts.

A group representing New Jersey rail riders called on the Christie administration to put the project on a longer "time out'' beyond the 30-day hiatus imposed last month and look at "right sizing'' the project by having it go to Penn Station and the proposed Moynihan Station to be converted from the Farley Post Office, instead of scuttling the project.

"There is a third way which would permit the construction of the megaproject to move forward while reducing overall outlays to stay within tight budgetary constraints,'' said Al Papp, director of the New Jersey Association of Railroad Passengers. "‚'Moynihan/Penn Station First' will be a win, win, win situation -- for the governor, for the project's proponents and -- most importantly -- for the riding public.''

Papp said that an estimated $3 billion could be saved by eliminating the deep cavern station and the overall depth of the project. Last week, Transportation Commissioner James Simpson said those estimates weren't accurate.

NJ Transit officials have maintained the route to Penn Station was ruled out due to technical and geological issues in addition to existing infrastructure that would be in the way. Rail advocates maintain those issues are solvable and not fatal flaws.

The massive project to build a set of rail tunnels under the Hudson and a separate station 150 feet under 34th street in Manhattan is coming to the end of a 30-day financial review imposed by Christie due to concerns that the project could run over budget.

Federal Transit Administration officials who have been conducting the review with NJ Transit officials have warned the state that it would not pay for any cost overruns beyond the $3 billion that the agency commited to the project as part of a funding grant being negotiated.

State officials are awaiting a financial analysis from the FTA which could forecast cost overruns for the project, which would take until 2018 to complete. So far the state has spent between $500 million and $600 million on the tunnel project, mostly in design and engineering work.

The only construction happening is construction of an overpass to carry Routes 1 and 9 over the mouth of the new tunnel through the Palisades in North Bergen.

http://www.app.com/article/20101006/...ve-been-killed

[NYguy]

"I hope they'll look at the cost of the current project and an alternative that will clearly save them money," said Joseph Clift, a member of the Regional Rail Working Group and retired LIRR director of planning.

To do so means returning to one of the alternative plans to send trains to Penn Station, instead of to a proposed deep cavern station about 150 feet under 34th Street. That plan, known as alternative G, was rejected by NJ Transit because of engineering and geological issues.

But Clift said that although some of those issues are "engineering challenges," they are not "fatal flaws," as NJ Transit officials have contended.

"We say kill the 34th Street station plan and go back to the draft environmental impact statement plan of February 2008 and build the route to Penn Station. It will save $3 billion

Well, if they could have those trains terminate in the new Moynihan section of Penn Station, I'm for it. But Penn Station is crowded enough as it is, they would have to find a way to circulate the additional transit population through the concourses. But if it will keep that tunnel under construction, do it. Because I don't think we'll get the oppurtunity to do it again in our lifetime.

[NYguy]

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...ATE/101019987#

Hotel, big retail eyed for Moynihan Station
Lifting the veil on vision for future Amtrak station in Eighth Avenue post office building, state raises prospect of a hotel on upper floor, and a shopping center.


Down this hallway, which once led to offices, may eventually lead to hotel rooms.


A model of the entire building, which sits on eight acres and spans two city blocks.


By Jeremy Smerd
October 11, 2010

A marble hallway where a tiny jail housed postal thieves; expansive rooms obstructed by dingy drop-ceilings; and wide hallways overlooking the inner courtyard of the James A. Farley Post Office—this now-obsolete but prime Manhattan real estate could be transformed into a boutique hotel that will occupy the top floors of what will eventually become Moynihan train station.

The Related Cos. and Vornado Realty Trust, the two developers working with the Moynihan Station Development Corp. to turn the bottom two floors of the six-story post office into a new Amtrak station, envision a 200-room boutique hotel on the eastern half of the building, which has grand facade facing Eighth Avenue, said Fred Bartoli, project manager on the Moynihan Station Development Corp. That group is a subsidiary of the state's Empire State Development Corp.

Mr. Bartoli was among several ESDC staffers giving New Yorkers an inside glimpse of the future of Moynihan Station on Oct. 9. The tours were part of Open House New York's annual weekend event showcasing the city's architecture marvels. An actual boutique hotel in the space is many years away, but that is so far the most likely use of the space, Mr. Bartoli said.

The national landmark sits on an eight-acre site that spans two square city blocks between West 31st and West 33rd streets. The Beaux Arts facade actually contains two buildings bisected by a breezeway that will eventually be opened up to allow taxi passage.

The eastern half of the building envelopes an inner courtyard covered with a copper-plated roof. Designers say the roof will be replaced with a glass dome covering a train hall similar to Grand Central Terminal's main concourse.

The western half of the building is likely to contain retail shops with big-box stores on the upper floors of the six-story building. Those floors are now empty. All that remain are covered catwalks with slots in the walls.

Postal managers used the slots to spy on their employees, some of whom may have been tempted to steal the mail or read a postcard or two, according to the tour guides.

It could be at least a decade, however, before a boutique hotel or retail stores come to fruition. While construction on the $267 million first phase begins this month, the downturn in the real estate market has put the private-public development of the station's later phases on hold. The first phase entails linking the Farley building to expanded Penn Station platforms, giving passengers another exit on the final third of tracks that run from Penn station underneath the post office.

“That will really help alleviate congestion at Penn Station,” said Bronson Fox, a vice president of development at the Moynihan Station Development Corp., who also spoke on the tour.

ESDC is in talks with the developers to sell 2.5 million square feet of air rights. The money would combine with government funding to develop the post office into a train station. The private developers would then pay to renovate the remaining floors. What the developers will do with the air rights remains a source of speculation. Vornado could transform a neighboring site into a tower rivaling One Penn Plaza. The site on the northeast corner of Eighth Avenue and West 33rd Street is currently home to a one-story Duane Reade.

For now, the post office is largely unused and off limits to the public. The exception is the main foyer on Eighth Avenue, which still serves as a neighborhood post office and will continue to be used as a retail post office once the station is built.

The jail that once housed postal thieves has been taken down. All that remain are the marks on the floor outlining the footprint of the tiny cells. Signs along the wide corridors announcing the building as a “fallout shelter” speak of an earlier era when the building teemed with thousands of workers who sorted the mail, designed stamps (some of which were kept in a vault in the basement) and, until five years ago, shipped the mail on the trains below ground.

Much of that work is now outsourced. And though the future of the U.S. Postal Service is uncertain in the Internet era, the agency's famous motto inscribed on the building's facade will remain in perpetuity:

“Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds.”