The statistics thread : how many people...

[Grumpy]

Well time for a never ending discussion: which is the largest European metropolis ?

London , Paris , Moscow .... you tell me

[anm]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

Well time for a never ending discussion: which is the largest European metropolis ?

London , Paris , Moscow .... you tell me

Grumpy, this thread could be named something like this: Find me a stastistical category in which one of these cities is larger than the other two.

[Swede]

hehe, so true. How big is the Ruhr metro these days?

It would help all these discussions if there was uniformity of categories and uniformity of methods for getting the stats, but...

[Minato Ku]

I don't know but unlike Moscow London and Paris, Rhein Ruhr lost inhabitants.

[Pat-Rick]

Rhein-Ruhr: it depends on what you count. See:

around 5.5 millions


around 11.0 millions


(btw: the name "Düsseldorf" is not showing the city, but the government district name, that's why it appears near Duisburg)

for sure: Ile-de-France, London Metro and Moskow Metro have more inhabitants and are more dense.

[New Brisavoine]

The answer both questions.

Question #1: Moscow is the most populated city, by far. Its municipal population, its urban area population, its metropolitan area population, all three are larger than in either Paris or London. That's thanks to the horrible economic conditions that prevailed from the fall of the USSR to the mid-2000s which drew millions of Russians from the poor Russian provinces to Moscow, despite the system of internal passport, which many people managed to bypass.

Question #2: I happen to have exact population figures for the Rhine-Ruhr. The figures I have I calculated them by using official population figures from the German statistical office. I added all the cities, Kreise, and Gemeinde contained within the officially defined Rhine-Ruhr metropolitan area. Here are the official borders of the Rhine-Ruhr metropolitan area as defined by the Landesentwicklungsplan:



This official metropolitan area covers exactly 7,110 km². Here are the population figures (each year as of Jan. 1) for this officially defined area:
1963: 11,066,754 inhabitants
1974: 11,535,178 (first peak of population)
1987: 10,922,944 (lowest point)
1993: 11,522,192 (quick recovery after 1987)
1997: 11,574,717 (second peak of population, the highest peak so far)
2000: 11,542,587
2004: 11,518,180
2007: 11,471,732

[SHiRO]

Moscow's metropolitan area population is not larger than London's...

[New Brisavoine]

^^It is. The urban area of Moscow, with 14 million inhabitants, is already more populated than the London metropolitan area (12 to 13 million inhabitants). As for the Moscow metropolitan area it has anywhere between 15 and 16 million inhabitants, not counting the numerous illegal people who do not have a residency permit.

[Swede]

But how does Russia define a metropolitan area vs how does the UK define a metropolitan area? This can make for huge differences.

[New Brisavoine]

Neither the UK nor Russia officially define metropolitan areas. It's up to geographers and demographers to define metropolitan areas that fit the purpose of their studies. What's clear, however, is whatever areas you add up around London and Moscow, any combination has more inhabitants in Moscow than in London. For example, if you add up all the counties surrounding Greater London (Kent, Surrey, Berks, Bucks, Herts, Essex, incl. the separate unitary authorities), which covers an area of 15,400 km², larger than most definitions of the London metropolitan area, you get 14,490,000 inhabitants in mid-2006 within that area. If you add up the municipality of Moscow and all the surrounding districts on the map below, you get an area covering 15,450 km², nearly the same area as Greater London and all the surrounding counties, with 15,080,000 inhabitants in it (not counting illegal residents).

[909]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

As for the Moscow metropolitan area it has anywhere between 15 and 16 million inhabitants, not counting the numerous illegal people who do not have a residency permit.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

If you add up the municipality of Moscow and all the surrounding districts on the map below, you get an area covering 15,450 km², nearly the same area as Greater London and all the surrounding counties, with 15,080,000 inhabitants in it (not counting illegal residents).

Why is the number of illegal people emphasized in Moscow and not in London?

[New Brisavoine]

^^Illegal Russians, not illegal foreigners, due to the internal passport system. It's the same in China actually. For example Beijing has 3 to 4 million more inhabitants than what statistics say, because of the Chinese from the provinces who live in Beijing without a residency permit. There is no internal passport system in the UK, and no residency permit.

[909]

Although it's for many people an other discussion if Istanbul is an European metropolis, i believe it would be interesting to add this city in this discussion. There is no denial this city belongs populationwise in the same league as Paris, London and Moscow. It would be interesting to see some stats about Istanbul, estimates about illegal residences included.

The city of Istanbul has a population of 11,372,613 residents according to the latest count as of 2007,[1] and is one of the largest cities in Europe today. Currently Istanbul has 54 municipalities, and stretches over an area of about 65 miles (approximately 100 km). The rate of population growth in the city is currently at 3.45% a year on average, mainly due to the influx of people from the surrounding rural areas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul#Demographics

[Swede]

^The heart of Istanbul is on the European side, so I'd say it merits at least being mentioned.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

^^It is. The urban area of Moscow, with 14 million inhabitants, is already more populated than the London metropolitan area (12 to 13 million inhabitants). As for the Moscow metropolitan area it has anywhere between 15 and 16 million inhabitants, not counting the numerous illegal people who do not have a residency permit.

Can you give us a source which states that the London metropolitan area is 12 to 13 million?
I (and others) already know you can't because there is no such thing as an official definition of London's metro which says it's 12-13 million, it's just a figure you pull out of your ass...

And as if London doesn't have illegals (actually it probably has a lot more undocumented because of easy travel from the EU)

To my knowledge, Moscow doesn't have a officially defined metro area either, but we do know that the city of Moscow and Moscow Oblast officially have 17 million on 47,000 sq km. London puts 18 million on 21,000 sq km which incidentally is the only official definition of a metro area for London (wether you like it or not). Seems to me all the evidence points to London being larger.

Either way, YOU have to prove the contrary or stop spreading misinformation. So lets see the calculations which put London below Moscow...

[SHiRO]

Oh and btw Brisavoine, you're map is entirely arbitrary and useless. That's not the way metropolitan areas are calculated and I think you know it.
Intellectually dishonest...

Why the 15,000 sq km for London? (it's entirely arbitrary!) Why not 21,000 sq km (not so arbitrary) and then take 21,000 sq km around Moscow? Also not the way to calculate metro areas, but that way London comes out on top (and it even comes out on top if you go as high as 47,000 sq km and higher)

[New Brisavoine]

^^Oh dear, after all these years, some people are still repeating the same propaganda. It's sad really.

FYI, the London LUZ as defined by Eurostat (LUZs are an attempt at a European-wide definition of comparable metro areas) had exactly 12,071,300 inhabitants as of mid-2006.

The London metropolitan area defined by the GEMACA II research group which compared metropolitan areas across Northwestern Europe had 13,231,000 inhabitants in 1999.

There is no serious source that says that the London metro area has 18 million inhabitants. This figure comes from a publication by the Greater London Authority which added up all the counties and unitary authorities in the entire south-eastern corner of Greater Britain, incl. the Isle of Wight, but the Greater London Authority never claimed that this was the London metropolitan area. It refered to this huge area as a metropolitan region with dense linkage between the cities within that region. Some forumers then jumped on that figure to make self-aggrandizing claims of London having as many inhabitants as New York in its "metropolitan area", and sadly I see this urban myth is still being propagated years after.

Concerning the issue of illegal people, I think you don't understand how things work in Russia. In the UK you don't need to register on a public register to settle somewhere. People from the EU living in the UK are not "undocumented" because they don't need a document in the first place. They are counted in population estimates published by the ONS. Illegal immigrants from outside the EU, who are the only undocumented people in the UK, are nonetheless counted in the population estimates published by ONS (or so they try, by using neighbourhood surveys, checking the numbers of people subscribing to electricity, and so on). In Russia, you need to register on a public register before settling somewhere, and if you're from, say, Kazan, you can't move to Moscow unless you have a special permit. If you do move to Moscow anyway, you become undocumented. Contrary to the UK, undocumented people in Russia tend not to be counted in population estimates because these estimates are based on the public registers (same as in other countries with public registers like Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, but contrary to the UK where there are no public registers), that's why the Russian figures for Moscow should be considered undercounts (while figures for rural areas of Russia are probably overestimates).

[SHiRO]

A LUZ is not a metro area. Quite frankly LUZ are rather ridiculous political compromizes (Stuttgart bigger than Naples ).

And the GLA is not a serious source? Get real...
And just so you know, far better people than you have calculated this "claim" and indeed the 18 million adds up as a comparison to US Census CSA definitions. This all even before your time on these forums, when serious staticians still visited and before you appointed yourself the bearer of all knowledge.
There is no myth, only deniers with an agenda like you (and the Isle of Wight is not part of the defined 18 million metro, who's propagating myths here...)

It is common knowledge that the UK Census has enormous undercounts also.
And please don't bring up figures from 10 year old studies that focussed on Nortwestern Europe and did not include Moscow in any way, shape or form...

[anm]

Originally Posted by 909

Why is the number of illegal people emphasized in Moscow and not in London?

Not to answer your London vs Moscow question, but just an example that they really exist in Moscow...

When a couple of years ago a roof collapsed over a market place, about 50 people were killed. None of them were legal city residents - they lived at the market place.

It is also being said that some people rent their apartments to a large number of unregistered dwellers.

The estimates of illegal imigrants I have seen range from 0.5 mln to 2 mln. This is within city limits. The number in the metro area may be even larger, as housing becomes cheaper outside the city.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

^^Illegal Russians, not illegal foreigners, due to the internal passport system. It's the same in China actually. For example Beijing has 3 to 4 million more inhabitants than what statistics say, because of the Chinese from the provinces who live in Beijing without a residency permit. There is no internal passport system in the UK, and no residency permit.

Not all of illegal immigrants are Russian citizens. There are a lot of Ukranians, Uzbeks, Tadjiks, etc. from all over former Soviet Union.

[SHiRO]

Anyway, I'm not even saying the GLA definition is the end all be all as far as metro definitions for London go.
But it is the only official claim we have and one that compares to US Census definitions (and yes that has been calculated and verified many times over).

As far as Moscow and London go, Moscow clearly is the larger municipality, build up area, agglomeration, urban area...whatever. I do believe London draws it's commuters from farther and wider and as a result the combined areas of commuting around London amount to more people than that of Moscow.