Merivale Road (Baseline Road to Carling Avenue) Transit Priority EA

[waterloowarrior]

http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public...avenue-transit

[Uhuniau]

More transit signal priority for a suburban street.

Nothing for urban ones.

[SF Thomas]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

More transit signal priority for a suburban street.

Nothing for urban ones.

I'd argue as far as suburbs go the neighbourhoods near this section of Merivale are a bit more urban than others in some ways, and probably a good candidate for both redevelopment and transit improvements. The area has decent potential and with a bit of work the area could probably become more integrated in the urban core.

Most of the neighbourhoods in this area have a higher density than the average suburb. Carlington is arguably one of the oldest post-war suburbs. Anecdotally I've found it isn't bad when it comes to urban density or walk-ability. Central Park itself is actually decently dense and well laid out for a new suburb. There are also a lot of apartments in this area, both the smaller 3-4 story types scattered along the northern section of Merivale and several larger ones near Central Park. Plus there are several new ones going up in Central Park and a bunch planned for that development near Westgate Shopping Centre.

The area is actually pretty close to the urban core if you consider the Civic Hospital and the older pre-WWII war suburbs the main boundary line. As neighbourhoods like Westboro, Hintonberg etc. gentrify and become more expensive in the next decade this area is a likely choice for people looking for a more affordable neighbourhood within a reasonable distance from the urban area. The bus ride to Westboro/Hintonberg is about 15 minutes and you can get downtown in about 30 minutes.

Improving transit around Merivale actually makes a lot of sense strategically in advance of the apartment developments and the influx of new residents. Get those people in the habit of using transit early, especially if they commute downtown. Personally I'm hoping there is enough demand to up transit frequencies in this area in the long run because while the bus ride isn't that long the 176 is not that frequent which is the main drawback to taking transit in the area.

In addition I could even see the northern part of Merivale gradually evolving into more of a main-street shopping area.

[FutureWickedCity]

I've always thought this stretch of Merivale between Baseline and Carling has had a lot of potential. It already has some character, some variety in the architecture of the buildings and some commercial vibrancy. I know "gentrification" is a dirty word now but this street is a perfect candidate.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

More transit signal priority for a suburban street.

Nothing for urban ones.

They're putting it signal priority on the section of Carling between Bronson and the Farm.. aka through Little Italy and part of that whole area around Bell St South (Centretown West?) if that's not urban I'm not sure what is.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

They're putting it signal priority on the section of Carling between Bronson and the Farm.. aka through Little Italy and part of that whole area around Bell St South (Centretown West?) if that's not urban I'm not sure what is.

The morphology of Carling, in terms of street width, intersection geometry and frequency, and land use along almost its entire length, is mid-century suburban. If you are looking for an urban street, try a Bank, Preston, Somerset, Rideau-Montreal, Beechwood... none of which the city is doing anything meaningful with to improve transit service, and in fact, many things that are deleterious to the quality of that service.

But how about that LRT to low-density, low-diversity suburbs...

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by SF Thomas

In addition I could even see the northern part of Merivale gradually evolving into more of a main-street shopping area.

There's quite a few mid-century main drags in Ottawa that could start turning into main streets, IFF (a) properties are permitted to do so, and (b) the city starts insisting, as a matter of policy, that they do so where practical.

As it stands, too many land use and parking regulations militate against (a), and the city is too wimpy to ever do (b). A society that has come to view main streets as unsightly or worse needs some major policy nudges to start building main streets again. Three, or maybe even four decades of happy words in Ottawa's official plans have not been effective at turning the developers back towards mainstreetism. Something stronger is needed, but lacking.

[SF Thomas]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

There's quite a few mid-century main drags in Ottawa that could start turning into main streets, IFF (a) properties are permitted to do so......

Fair points. There may end up being some additional pressure to change things around on Merivale or allow exemptions to certain regulations. (I confess I'm not an expert on the regulations though).

With Westgate Shopping Centre getting demolished in the next few years it will remove some near-bye retail competition in the northern section of Merivale and there may be some pressure or additional demand to fill the void. There is also a bit of new retail space near Central Park where the Tim Horton's is which has yet to be developed. There is some chance for new retail space to be created either in the ground floor of future apartments/condos along Merivale in Central Park or in the Westgate redevelopment.

The existing retail mix in the northern section of Merivale may change in the future as population increases and shopper interests change. The current retail buildings could get redeveloped since they are mostly small strip plaza's and a few converted homes (i.e. upscale the quality of the buildings and increase the size a bit). This may be able to get around a few regulations that would otherwise stymie redevelopment since it is simply changing around an existing commercial property rather than converting one.

The lack of large brown fields and smaller size of current retail buildings may prevent big box style developments to some extent, plus the Walmart and Loblaw plazas on Baseline have that type of retail covered. Its the variety of smaller stores, independent restaurants, corner stores, or barber/hairdressers that the place will probably be lacking.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The morphology of Carling, in terms of street width, intersection geometry and frequency, and land use along almost its entire length, is mid-century suburban. If you are looking for an urban street, try a Bank, Preston, Somerset, Rideau-Montreal, Beechwood... none of which the city is doing anything meaningful with to improve transit service, and in fact, many things that are deleterious to the quality of that service.

No offence, but that description of "urban street" sounds like a pretty narrow definition to use. It also kind of limits the areas where improvements could be applied. I'd rather use "urban/core neighbourhoods" for describing the area improvements like this will impact than restrict it solely to the character of individual streets.

I get the argument that the street style of Carling or Bronson is too suburban. However even if the one arterial street is suburban in style the surrounding neighbourhoods and area are pretty urban in nature. It doesn't change the fact that the transit improvements and signal priorities will have a benefit for some of the more urban/inner city parts of Ottawa.

Maybe that's a glass half-full argument, but I'll take minor improvements in the short term and hope/push for more in the long run. I completely agree other areas of the city, especially Montreal, really need some improvements, but I'm still going to be glad for improvements in the other parts of the city core regardless.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by SF Thomas

Maybe that's a glass half-full argument, but I'll take minor improvements in the short term and hope/push for more in the long run. I completely agree other areas of the city, especially Montreal, really need some improvements, but I'm still going to be glad for improvements in the other parts of the city core regardless.

I use transit to get to all points of the city for all purposes, so improvements anywhere will, at some point in the course of a week, month, or year, benefit me, too.

But most of my time, and transit trips, is spent from about Westboro Beach east, Billings Bridge (maaaybbeee South Keys) north, and St. Laurent west, with occasional forays across the bridges into deepest darkest Quebec. There is damn near nothing happening to improve non-LRT transit in that zone, a great deal is being done to denigrate the service, and apart from the LRT on the books, including the Phase 2 additions at existing BRT stations and the addition of the one new Gladstone station on the O-Train line, this is it: that's the transit plan for the core.

Every other penny of tax that I'm paying as the city's share of transit capital works is going to the suburbs.

I'm glad for suburban transit improvements, but growing ever more impatient with what's happening in the core... and finding more and more that those of us who are impatient aren't alone.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I use transit to get to all points of the city for all purposes, so improvements anywhere will, at some point in the course of a week, month, or year, benefit me, too.

But most of my time, and transit trips, is spent from about Westboro Beach east, Billings Bridge (maaaybbeee South Keys) north, and St. Laurent west, with occasional forays across the bridges into deepest darkest Quebec. There is damn near nothing happening to improve non-LRT transit in that zone, a great deal is being done to denigrate the service, and apart from the LRT on the books, including the Phase 2 additions at existing BRT stations and the addition of the one new Gladstone station on the O-Train line, this is it: that's the transit plan for the core.

Every other penny of tax that I'm paying as the city's share of transit capital works is going to the suburbs.

I'm glad for suburban transit improvements, but growing ever more impatient with what's happening in the core... and finding more and more that those of us who are impatient aren't alone.

Are you counting St. Laurent as urban?

And either way, that chunk of Merivale is easily as urban as Beechwood or Montreal Rd.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Are you counting St. Laurent as urban?

I am counting it as the eastern boundary of where I spend most of my time and transit usage. It is not a very urban street, no; its land-use morphology is essentially suburban. It could be more than that, but isn't.

And either way, that chunk of Merivale is easily as urban as Beechwood or Montreal Rd.

Maybe when you compare the best few blocks of Merivale to the middling or worst of Beechwood or Montreal. But overall Merivale is still much more main drag than main street, and most of the TPM study is on a portion of Merivale that is not urban mainstreety at all.

Doesn't detract from my main point: damn near jack shite is being done to improve local bus transit on the urban main streets of Ottawa. Not Beechwood (recently worsened by Fleury and Nussbaum), not Rideau-Montreal (the current plans make things worse), not Bank (recently rebuilt at great expense with no improvements to transit service or amenities), probably not Elgin (we'll see what the final designs look like), not Somerset-Wellington-Richmond (we'll see what the Phase 2 station at/near Richmond will do for that one part of the street, but that's just one local stop), not Main (which has less shelter and worse stop placement than before, and no TPMs), not Bronson, not Preston, not McArthur or Donald.... who'd I miss?

[Lakeofthewood]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I am counting it as the eastern boundary of where I spend most of my time and transit usage. It is not a very urban street, no; its land-use morphology is essentially suburban. It could be more than that, but isn't.



Maybe when you compare the best few blocks of Merivale to the middling or worst of Beechwood or Montreal. But overall Merivale is still much more main drag than main street, and most of the TPM study is on a portion of Merivale that is not urban mainstreety at all.

Doesn't detract from my main point: damn near jack shite is being done to improve local bus transit on the urban main streets of Ottawa. Not Beechwood (recently worsened by Fleury and Nussbaum), not Rideau-Montreal (the current plans make things worse), not Bank (recently rebuilt at great expense with no improvements to transit service or amenities), probably not Elgin (we'll see what the final designs look like), not Somerset-Wellington-Richmond (we'll see what the Phase 2 station at/near Richmond will do for that one part of the street, but that's just one local stop), not Main (which has less shelter and worse stop placement than before, and no TPMs), not Bronson, not Preston, not McArthur or Donald.... who'd I miss?

I totally agree with you that transit in the core is currently crap. As someone who has most of their transit trips within approximately the same boundaries you specified, I'm right there with you on the current service.

I think it's ridiculous the low frequency/number of routes with which some major streets are serviced (Bronson and Main are the two that always stick out for me), as well as the number of connections you have to make to get from certain neighbourhoods of the city to others.

However I think it's rather unfair to say that there is no transit plan for the core, when within the boundaries you have laid out (generally approximating streets on the map, call it Churchill to Baseline/Heron to St Laurent), the following transit projects are in the City's affordable transit network plan:

- Baseline BRT
- Transit Priority (Continuous Lanes) on Carling, Rideau and Montreal
- Transit Priority (Isolated Measures) on Merivale, Fisher, Holland, Wellington, Somerset, Bronson, Bank, Gladstone, Elgin, King Edward, Beechwood, St Laurent
- Stage 1 and 2 LRT

Now I'd agree with you on the fact that Beechwood and Montreal appear to be lost causes for whatever stupid reasons they got screwed up. However I think it's early to call Elgin a lost cause, as that is still in the design stage (first one wasn't great I agree) and unless I missed something we haven't seen anything yet for the Somerset-Wellington corridor. Bronson, however, is on the transit priority list.

It can of course be argued that the studies for the Transit Priority projects may end up not producing results (as shown with Montreal), or what the actual boundaries of the "core" of Ottawa are, but I think it's fair to say that there is/will be an effort in the coming years. Will it help anything? I'm not hopeful, but at least there is a "plan" of sorts.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Lakeofthewood

- Baseline BRT

Not the core.

- Transit Priority (Continuous Lanes) on Carling, Rideau and Montreal

Painted lines on Rideau and Montreal will not fix the transit problems on Rideau and Montreal.

- Transit Priority (Isolated Measures) on Merivale, Fisher, Holland, Wellington, Somerset, Bronson, Bank, Gladstone, Elgin, King Edward, Beechwood, St Laurent

The "isolated measures" on Beechwood have had the effect of diminising transit service in that area.

Where, when, and what are the other "isolated measures" on any of these corridors?

- Stage 1 and 2 LRT

Neither of which serve local transit needs in the core. They may help region-wide movement, but they do not link downtown neighbourhoods to one another, and the projected changes to local bus routes in the core will add weight times, wet times, and inconvenience to an already crappy situation.

Now I'd agree with you on the fact that Beechwood and Montreal appear to be lost causes for whatever stupid reasons they got screwed up.

Largely the much-more-vocal, and, for some reason, politically influential bike lobby, at least on Beechwood.

However I think it's early to call Elgin a lost cause, as that is still in the design stage (first one wasn't great I agree) and unless I missed something we haven't seen anything yet for the Somerset-Wellington corridor.

As I said: there are no plans to actually improve transit on trunk routes in the core.

Bronson, however, is on the transit priority list.

Does that mean more paint and stop removal and shelter demolition, as is the case for other "transit priority" and "optimization" efforts, or will there actually be improvements in transit for people?

OC Transpo takes the view that the most important thing is moving buses, when it is supposed to be in the business of moving people. If people are not at the centre of the planning chart, which seems to be the current case, then we have a problem: it justifies all the stupid moves like removing shelters, breaking connections, and forcing unnecessary bus:bus or bus:lrt:bus transfers.

It can of course be argued that the studies for the Transit Priority projects may end up not producing results (as shown with Montreal), or what the actual boundaries of the "core" of Ottawa are, but I think it's fair to say that there is/will be an effort in the coming years. Will it help anything? I'm not hopeful, but at least there is a "plan" of sorts.

I have not seen anything of this supposed plan to actually improve local transit in the core.

[lrt's friend]

As I said: there are no plans to actually improve transit on trunk routes in the core.

Most routes run every 15 minutes. That is now the gold standard for Ottawa. Improvements beyond that is a waste of tax money. Only capacity improvements other than frequency will now be considered. Elgin Street is not considered a frequent service corridor therefore 30 minute frequency is good enough according to the 'experts'

[lrt's friend]

It is interesting that transit priority is being proposed between Baseline and Carling while the greatest opportunity for redevelopment is between Baseline and Clyde, the greatest commercial development is between Clyde and Hunt Club and the greatest congestion is also between Clyde and Hunt Club.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Most routes run every 15 minutes. That is now the gold standard for Ottawa. Improvements beyond that is a waste of tax money. Only capacity improvements other than frequency will now be considered.

Except that we've already been told not to expect artics or DDs on those downtown routes that are already sardine cans on wheels.

Where is the new capacity going to come from?

And given that many of these routes actually break even at the farebox, where's the impact on taxpayers?

Elgin Street is not considered a frequent service corridor therefore 30 minute frequency is good enough according to the 'experts'

It's not just a question of frequency: it's also a question of speed, priority, passenger safety, comfort and convenience on the bus and off, and connections AND NOT JUST TO THE DAMN LRT.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The morphology of Carling, in terms of street width, intersection geometry and frequency, and land use along almost its entire length, is mid-century suburban. If you are looking for an urban street, try a Bank, Preston, Somerset, Rideau-Montreal, Beechwood... none of which the city is doing anything meaningful with to improve transit service, and in fact, many things that are deleterious to the quality of that service.

The thing is, what make those urban streets so great (narrow roadway with sidewalks and retail at the curb) make it extremely difficult to build transit priority measures. There just isn't room for bus lanes, bike lanes and still have room for cars and pedestrians. Something has to give. For now the best we can do is paint on the road and some traffic signal optimization.

Optimally we need to tunnel under those streets, but Ottawa is so miserly it took 3 city counsels to agree to a 2.5 km tunnel through the core on the route that has the city's highest number of buses. How are we going to get 4 km tunnels under Bank or Rideau-Montreal approved?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The thing is, what make those urban streets so great (narrow roadway with sidewalks and retail at the curb) make it extremely difficult to build transit priority measures. There just isn't room for bus lanes, bike lanes and still have room for cars and pedestrians. Something has to give. For now the best we can do is paint on the road and some traffic signal optimization.

Optimally we need to tunnel under those streets, but Ottawa is so miserly it took 3 city counsels to agree to a 2.5 km tunnel through the core on the route that has the city's highest number of buses. How are we going to get 4 km tunnels under Bank or Rideau-Montreal approved?

The Confederation Line is going to leave the city's cupboard bare. There will be no other subway downtown in my lifetime.

It is much cheaper to convert bus lanes into bike lanes and convince downtown residents to use bikes instead of use transit.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The thing is, what make those urban streets so great (narrow roadway with sidewalks and retail at the curb) make it extremely difficult to build transit priority measures. There just isn't room for bus lanes, bike lanes and still have room for cars and pedestrians. Something has to give. For now the best we can do is paint on the road and some traffic signal optimization.

Ding ding ding: the trick is signals. (And also more aggressive bus lanes where feasable, which actually IS the case for most of the Rideau-Montreal corridor; less so along Bank, but Bank doesn't have the same bottleneck problems that the east end does.)

But the city isn't doing anything, signals-wise, at least not on urban main streets. Only in the burbs. Always the burbs.

And for such a self-styled high-tech capital, where is the high-tech street signal industry?

Optimally we need to tunnel under those streets, but Ottawa is so miserly it took 3 city counsels to agree to a 2.5 km tunnel through the core on the route that has the city's highest number of buses. How are we going to get 4 km tunnels under Bank or Rideau-Montreal approved?

By waiting a couple of centuries, it would appear, until there is O-Train LRT to every Ottawa suburb from Dollard-des-Ormeaux to Oshawa.

[lrt's friend]

Frankly, we do not want to turn Rideau-Montreal into highways like Bronson. On urban main streets with lots of pedestrians, we want traffic moving slowly. So for fast transit, we need to go underground.