Old Gates at the Halifax Forum??

[K-Man]

Hey all!

To say I’ve gone down a rabbit hole with this would be an understatement, lol. I'll try to keep this short...

Bored at work last week I came across this drawing of the Forum dated 1928. What caught my eye were the gates at the corner of Windsor and Almon St. (now the billboard) and the two large buildings in the background which would have sat along Young St (now just paved parking for the Civic Centre).


Source: Hipstamp - https://www.hipstamp.com/listing/can...cover/13889797

I thought the artist may have been exercising a little artistic freedom for the advertisement (since the Industrial building is missing) but with a little more looking I found this post card. This aerial view clearly shows the gates at Windsor & Almon as well as the two buildings along Young St.


Source: Hip Postcard - https://www.hippostcard.com/listing/...rd-d8/16465224

Unless I've completely overlooked it I can't find any information/pics about the gates or the buildings online. This led me to going down to the NS Archives for an hour or so one afternoon but even there I wasn’t able to find anything.

I did however find this little aerial gem (I’ve been looking for a long time for an older view of this part of the north end). In it you can see the buildings and gates so they weren't just artistic expression.


Source: NS Archives. Cell phone photo of image on their monitor.

I was also able to find this great little shot from the 70's of Scotia Chev-Olds at the the corner of Young and Windsor - right where the buildings would have been. So we know they didn't make it to the disco days, lol.


Source: HRM Archives - https://gencat1.eloquent-systems.com...n1jhb18hd1.jpg

I was hoping a look at the Hopkins Atlas (plates R, T, and V) might lend a clue. Obviously the Forum did not exist at this time but I thought maybe the buildings would have been part of the old exhibition grounds before the 1917 explosion but they weren't on the map.

Hopkins Atlas:
https://novascotia.ca/archives/maps/hopkins.asp

Plate R:
https://novascotia.ca/archives/maps/plate.asp?ID=20

Plate T:
https://novascotia.ca/archives/maps/plate.asp?ID=22

Plate V:
https://novascotia.ca/archives/maps/plate.asp?ID=24

Any thoughts guys? I'm sure the buildings were just part of the old Forum complex used for storage and don't have any real historic value but the gates on Almon St. seem like a pretty great part of Forum history that I didn't even know existed.

[Keith P.]

A history of the Forum would be an interesting read. At some point (I suspect maybe in the late ‘40s or early ‘50s) a number of alterations were made as can be seen via the brickwork. It looks like windows were removed and bricked in, and the Windsor St. doors were taken out of use, among others. Perhaps the gates were removed around that time when the parking lot was put in and paved.

I have no memory of the buildings on Young and Windsor, but I do recall the Scotia Chev used car lot. There was also one catty-corner across the intersection which I think was Citadel Motors used lot, who were the local Pontiac Buick dealer. Their new car facility was on Brunswick and Sackville where Cambridge Suites now is located.

[K-Man]

Yeah, I'd love to know more about the changes that it's seen over the years. For being a bit of a landmark building in the city there's surprisingly not a lot of information that I was able to find. I was hoping the Forums website might have a timeline but the "History" section was only short. It does make mention though of the "cattle shed and accompanying horse barns" on the grounds so I'm assuming at this point that's what they were.

I was excited to see this 2014 proposal where the plan (among other things) was to restore it's original appearance....to when it had character, lol. I believe though as of Aug. 2018 the cost was estimated at $60 million and that council would be making a decision within 18 months.

2014 Proposal and images:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1570191052705

I wish when they had made the alterations that they didn't just brick it up. I'm sure it had something to do with renovations inside the building/structural issues/money/time/etc. but still..... it's lost a lot of it's charm now that you can't see the windows.

I'm curious, you mentioned that Citadel Motors was across the intersection. Would that have been on the Young St. side in the now fenced off lot or on the Windsor side where the apartments are?

There's a great video on YouTube posted by "hamiltonkeith" titled "Halifax Nova Scotia 1970's" where starting at the 55 sec. mark you can see that Citadel Motors lot (along with some other nice views).

Source:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1RqM_DEE1yw

[ILoveHalifax]

I do remember the gates and there were other buildings to the east - I believe my grandfather took me as a wee kid to the fair but far to young to remember any details

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by K-Man

Y
I'm curious, you mentioned that Citadel Motors was across the intersection. Would that have been on the Young St. side in the now fenced off lot or on the Windsor side where the apartments are?

On the NW corner where the apartments are: https://goo.gl/maps/Pk9sPBSckW1g6pHy8

[OldDartmouthMark]

Hello K-man, first of all, I noticed your total number of posts so far is 2, so I'd like to say welcome to the forum!

Your post is intriguing to me, as I always thought the Forum had lost some of its character during the renovations over the years (especially the windows!) and I have always liked the building. I recall going there many times over the years right back into the early 1970s for the Atlantic Winter Fair, and watching the Nova Scotia Voyageurs play in that building, among other things like the spring Speed Sport car shows, and Atlantic Grand Prix Wrestling ()!

A couple of notes:
- There have been many posts about historic Halifax in this thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...143037&page=49. I recall posting a large aerial of the Forum, showing the track, in that thread. I will see if I can find it when I have a little time.
- The photo of the Scotia Chev used car dealer you posted looks to be from the mid 1960s, given that I'm seeing a lot of 1959-models on the lot, and it's a used car shop.

I love mysteries like this, and so when I get a chance, I'll join in and see what I can find to bring this to light.

[OldDartmouthMark]

My mistake, I posted it in this thread. Link to the pic below:

https://novascotia.ca/archives/McCul...ives.asp?ID=81

[K-Man]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

On the NW corner where the apartments are: https://goo.gl/maps/Pk9sPBSckW1g6pHy8

Ah, ok...interesting. I wonder if there's any photos around? I'd be curious to see that before all the changes at the intersection.

[K-Man]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

I do remember the gates and there were other buildings to the east - I believe my grandfather took me as a wee kid to the fair but far to young to remember any details

Right on, I bet that would have been pretty cool to see. Too bad the memory has faded. With all the windows I'm intrigued to know what was inside.

[K-Man]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Hello K-man, first of all, I noticed your total number of posts so far is 2, so I'd like to say welcome to the forum

Thanks OldDartmouthMark! Lot's of great discussion in the threads on here and some fantastic old photographs. The aerial photo you posted of the grounds is a lot better resolution than the one I have. I was able to zoom in and get a better look at the gates. I have to say though that this is starting to turn into to one of those "I can't have it so I want it more" type things, lol!

[K-Man]

So, these aren't really related to the Forum Gates in question but I thought I would post them for the sake of interest. The more I dig around the more rich history I'm uncovering about this piece of land.

I'm sure this one has probably been posted before but this is what the view would have looked like from the Forum's grandstand seating in OldDartmouthMark's photo from above.


Source: NS Archives - https://gencat1.eloquent-systems.com...=aerial+ladder

The date on the photo says Aug. 11, 1952. Interesting to note the Piercey's smokestack in the upper left hand of the photo. Most noteably though is that the race track is gone and replaced by the Wellington Court housing. If I'm correct the army used this during WW2 then it was used as residential housing until 1976 when it was demolished to make way for the current Canada Post office.

I found these one day on a visit to the NS Archives. You'll have to forgive the absolute atrocious quality of the photos though. I didn't have my USB drive with me so in a pinch I used the camera on my phone.


Source: NS Archives - Taken with the camera on my phone of images on their monitor

NS Archives has titled the first two images "Exhibition: Girl making a high dive". The third picture is a note written by the photographer on the back of one of the photos that reads "2 views taken by first camera I owned. Both taken at annual exhibition of Halifax. One shows girl making high dive, she is in the air - the other is taken from the Pavilion". Photo Drawer: Hfx: Exhibition

I found these photos particularly interesting because if you look closely you can see the back side of the Nova Scotia Cotton Manufacturing Company in the background. The photos did not have a date on them but the Cotton Factory did not open until 1883 so they were taken sometime after that. I was also interested in what the "Pavilion" was that the photographer mentioned in his note. To my surprise (or I just suck at Google, lol) I wasn't able to find any photos/information on what it was.

I'm taking a guess here but I'm assuming that it was the original seating at the Exhibition Grounds before the 1917 Explosion and the construction of the new Grandstand seating at the Forum racetrack. I found this postcard of the original Grounds with what I thought might be the Pavilion seating:


Source: Halifax Public Libraries - http://digitalcollections.halifaxpub...ndle/10960/232

But then I found this advertisement for the 1897 Provincial Exhibition which shows different grandstands again. Interesting to note that the fence along the front of the grandstands is drawn somewhat similar in the advertisement as it appears in the undated photos above. Same time frame I wonder?

Anyway, the search for the Forum Gates continues.....


Source: Kijiji - https://www.kijiji.ca/b-rideshare-ca...ved=1349775917

[Keith P.]

It is interesting to read that 2014 proposal for redevelopment and revival of the Forum. Unfortunately while they estimated $38 million at the time it is now more like $60 million as you say. Given HRM's ability to drop $40 million on an absolutely characterless and less than ideal modern 4-pad box like the ones built in Burnside and Bedford this does not seem outrageous, although I would like to see the 2014 design revisited to better integrate parts of the existing structures with the new ones - the renderings of those look like a dog's breakfast. The renovated Forum looks wonderful though.

I am old enough to remember a couple of things not really related to the gates. I do recall being taken as a little kid to early editions of the Atlantic Winter Fair at the Forum site in the 1960s. My memory is that the livestock was on display in the Civic Arena then - the smell is something I would never forget - which impressed a city boy like me quite a bit as I had never seen farm animals up close before. I also remember going to see the domestic displays of food, sewing projects, plants and the like in the Industrial Building. My recollection of that were the narrow, steep stairwells required to go from floor to floor, and the very bouncy, creaky wood floors themselves.

A few years later, late 60s or early 70s, I remember attending a carnival set up on the racetrack lands one summer day, probably the Bill Lynch shows. This was obviously prior to the construction of the Canada Post facility. I cannot remember if the grandstand was still there then. My main memory was pumping nickels into one of the machines where there were various small prizes inside a glass case that you tried to pick up and drop into a chute using a crank-operated crane and bucket contraption also inside. Of course it was set up in such a way as to make that nearly impossible. I remember a stack of 5 nickels wrapped in red cellophane was my main target, one which I could never obtain.

[OldDartmouthMark]

More interesting pics/info!

Speaking of the Nova Scotia Cotton Manufacturing Co., I had posted a little about it in another thread:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...5&postcount=12

From that post, I'll bring forward the pic of the cotton factory's ruins looking towards the Exhibition grounds:
https://novascotia.ca/archives/MacAs...es.asp?ID=2511

[K-Man]

That's a great shot, eh? From Robie St. it helps give some perspective of where the Provincial Exhibition building would have sat on the grounds. Actually....looking closer that shot has a wider angle than what I've seen before. I took this photo at the NS Archives one day of the factory after the 1917 Explosion but I had a little trouble getting a proper perspective on it due to the water tower.


Source NS Archives - Taken with the camera on my phone of the image on their monitor

I'm sure most people have seen it but I was trying to use the early image below to get a better idea of where the tower was placed. I can't find a date for the image though. Because of the wider angle in the photo that you posted the legs and very bottom of that water tower can be seen. Interesting. It must have been added some years later after the factory opened in 1883. Would anyone know when? Or, if we can get a date on that early image of the factory we could at least narrow it down to a certain time frame.


Source: Collections Canada - http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/s...dehcnksujrln92

Also, just a fun after thought. If you look closely at the image posted by OldDartmouthMark you can see the tips of some tree branches. I wonder if that's the same branches of the trees in the far left of the image above?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I remember a stack of 5 nickels wrapped in red cellophane was my main target, one which I could never obtain.

I remember those crane contraptions from the Bill Lynch shows at Old Home Week in Charlottetown too. I actually was able to retrieve one of those cellophane wrapped rolls of nickels once. I remember that there were three old WW2 "V for Victory" nickels in the roll!

Thanks for reviving the memory!

[K-Man]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

My memory is that the livestock was on display in the Civic Arena then - the smell is something I would never forget

Hahaha! I near spit my coffee out when I read that. I don't know why but that caught me funny. I guess when it comes to old barns and livestock those things are best enjoyed in photos - or at least at a distance, eh?

That was a great read, thanks for that. I always enjoy hearing peoples stories from when they were actually in the buildings. It's nice to see photos but it adds a whole other dimension to the image when someone can describe actually being there. Someone else one time had described the Industrial Building in much the same manner that you did with all the displays and the spongy/creaky old floors painted grey. I get the feeling that it was a building that got old quickly...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by K-Man

That's a great shot, eh? From Robie St. it helps give some perspective of where the Provincial Exhibition building would have sat on the grounds. Actually....looking closer that shot has a wider angle than what I've seen before. I took this photo at the NS Archives one day of the factory after the 1917 Explosion but I had a little trouble getting a proper perspective on it due to the water tower.


Source NS Archives - Taken with the camera on my phone of the image on their monitor

I'm sure most people have seen it but I was trying to use the early image below to get a better idea of where the tower was placed. I can't find a date for the image though. Because of the wider angle in the photo that you posted the legs and very bottom of that water tower can be seen. Interesting. It must have been added some years later after the factory opened in 1883. Would anyone know when? Or, if we can get a date on that early image of the factory we could at least narrow it down to a certain time frame.


Source: Collections Canada - http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/s...dehcnksujrln92

Also, just a fun after thought. If you look closely at the image posted by OldDartmouthMark you can see the tips of some tree branches. I wonder if that's the same branches of the trees in the far left of the image above?

In my previous post that I linked to above was this faded photo of the cotton factory, dated January 26, 1903. It also doesn't show the water tower, so this narrows down the timeline to a 14+ year span between this photo and the Halifax Explosion of Dec. 6, 1917. (As an aside, I'm wondering how they kept the water tower from freezing up during wintertime... but that's another discussion for another time).

City of Halifax fonds
Halifax (N.S.). City Clerk's Office records
Subject files
Dominion Cotton Mills Co. Ltd., Halifax, NS
Retrieval code: 102-5A-17.9
January 26, 1903

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

(As an aside, I'm wondering how they kept the water tower from freezing up during wintertime... but that's another discussion for another time).

I'm not sure what the story is with that water tower. But old railroad water tanks sometimes used heaters at the base to heat water being pumped into the tank. They also could use a pump in the tank to keep water circulating. But my understanding is that most tanks did not have such appliances. As in a lake, the water would rarely freeze completely, especially if the tank was in regular use, meaning water would always be circulating naturally.

[K-Man]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

In my previous post that I linked to above was this faded photo of the cotton factory, dated January 26, 1903. It also doesn't show the water tower, so this narrows down the timeline to a 14+ year span between this photo and the Halifax Explosion of Dec. 6, 1917. (As an aside, I'm wondering how they kept the water tower from freezing up during wintertime... but that's another discussion for another time)

Ah, ok. So 1903 then, eh? Thanks for that!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

I'm not sure what the story is with that water tower. But old railroad water tanks sometimes used heaters at the base to heat water being pumped into the tank. They also could use a pump in the tank to keep water circulating. But my understanding is that most tanks did not have such appliances. As in a lake, the water would rarely freeze completely, especially if the tank was in regular use, meaning water would always be circulating naturally.

Ha! I somehow figured that your rail knowledge would probably be able to provide an answer to my query! Thanks!