Suburban Public Transit

[Build.It]

Has anyone ever wondered why we don't have a larger bus network? I looked it up and apparently it's next to impossible for private companies to provide municipal bus services.

I've thought for a while that it would make more sense for suburban bus routes to simply follow the arterial roads back and forth, and have people get off at whatever intersection they need to make a turn. As opposed to these windy suburban bus routes where it takes 30 minutes to get somewhere that takes 5 minutes by car.

eg. The town of Oakville has roughly 20 arterial roads, and it takes about 20 minutes to traverse each one its entire length. For 10 minute service you would need 4 drivers per route, so 80 drivers total at a given time.

4x $30/hr x 0.33 hr/route = $40 per 20 minutes

You would need to sell ~12 rides every 20 minutes per arterial to at least pay for the driver, or 3 rides every 20 minutes per bus (since there would be 4 buses per arterial). This gets everyone where they need to go about almost as fast as a car, in the most direct way, and there is more than enough demand for the numbers to actually work. There would other costs, like maintenance, capital costs of the buses, gas, insurance etc, but with all that included, there is enough demand to pay for 15 passenger Sprinter buses to traverse the entire length of Third Line, or Upper Middle, or Dorval without making little detours all over the place.

[Doady]

20 minutes trip is not possible unless it is outside rush hour (no traffic congestion) and there are no riders (the bus does not need to stop to pick up or drop off passengers). More cars, slower buses. More transit riders, slower buses.

A normal bus probably travels 20km/h. If the bus is full, it becomes more like 15km/h. Then you have to add express service to bring the speed back up to 20km/h. An east-west route in Oakville will probably take 45 minutes, and north-south route 30 minutes.

From Oakville border to Kipling Station, the 1/1C Dundas in Mississauga takes 64 minutes along a 18km route, so the average speed is around 17km/h. Including layover time, that is already 12 buses required for this route to operate at 12 minute frequency. 10-minute frequency would require 14 buses.

• 1/1C Dundas: 10,000 riders, 12 minute frequency, 12 buses
• 101/101A Dundas Express: 6,000 riders, 15 minute frequency, 9 buses
• 5 Dixie: 9,000 riders, 13 minute frequency, 14 buses
• 18 Derry: 5,000 riders, 12 minute frequency, 10 buses
• 42 Derry: 13,000 riders, 12 minute frequency, 13 buses
• 61 Mavis: 9,000 riders, 12 minute frequency, 10 buses
• 66 McLaughlin: 10,000 riders, 8 minute frequency, 11 buses

Seven routes, 62,000 riders per weekday, 79 buses, and only one route with 10-minute frequency or better. The entire Oakville Transit system gets 13,000 riders per weekday with 105 buses. Don't expect 10-minute service on 21 different routes in Oakville anytime soon.

[Truenorth00]

If you think it's that easy, start a bus company.

This post is beyond ignorant.

[1overcosc]

^ I think you're too triggered by the privatization hints, TN.

Obviously privatized transit isn't going to work in suburbia. But he has a good point about how transit in the suburbs could be a lot more efficient if routes were more linear.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

^ I think you're too triggered by the privatization hints, TN.

Hardly. I'm okay with privatized transit. It's the routine ignorance and arrogance to suggest that this stuff is so simple that annoys me. It's swimmer_spe level analysis.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Obviously privatized transit isn't going to work in suburbia. But he has a good point about how transit in the suburbs could be a lot more efficient if routes were more linear.

It's usually those very suburbanites begging to make those routes less linear.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If you think it's that easy, start a bus company.

This post is beyond ignorant.

This is probably the best response but in addition to the insane calculations on the timing you need to pay for fuel, maintenance and especially depreciation on the busses. Such a weird government is bad we should just get out of the way arguement.

[Doady]

Most living in Oakville work in Burlington, Mississauga or Toronto. Oakville Transit can't do much more than serve the GO station and other hubs.

If the key to success were simply straighter routes, than Oakville Transit routes 3, 4, 5,and 6 would be run away successes. Hint: they aren't.

Operator salaries probably comprises only 2/3 of operating costs. On weekends they are paid 1.5x.

With a grid network, you expect people to take two buses. So that's one fare for two boardings. The $3 per boarding becomes $1.50. And as I said, most people in Oakville actually work outside of Oakville, that's another free transfer there. So if there are a lot transfers both within the system and between systems, it can become more like $1.00 per boarding.

• Oakville: 4 million boardings, $9 million operating revenue, $2.25 per boarding
• Mississauga: 60 million boardings, $87 million operating revenue, $1.45 per boarding
• Brampton: 63 million boardings, $98 million operating revenue, $1.55 per boarding

As you can see, the grid-based systems get much lower revenue per boarding.

• Oakville: 210k residents, $38 million net operating budget, $180 per capita
• Mississauga: 720k residents, $105 million net operating budget, $145 per capita
• Brampton: 660k residents, $109 million net operating budget, $165 per capita

So in 2023, the Town of Oakville actually spent more per capita to subsidize public transit operations than the Cities of Mississauga and Brampton did. The transit ridership in Oakville is simply too low to support any increase in service.

[WhipperSnapper]

LMAO at Buses. Gondales are the keys to Musk level riches!

There's no such thing as frequent all day service making money. Any private company would buy surplus used buses and run them infrequently at peak periods. Good luck expecting a bus even at every two hours during non peak periods.