CCTV expansion?

[SteelTown]

More cameras coming to city streets
Ken Mann
9/15/2008

Hamilton's Police Services Board is being asked to approve an expanded use of closed circuit surveillance cameras.

The recommendation, which goes before the board this afternoon, calls for them to be placed on James Street North, Concession Street, Ottawa Street and Hess Street.

Police Services Board Chair Bernie Morelli says they could be in place by late winter or early spring.

Morelli adds that it's about using technology to find better and more efficient ways to ensure safe communities.

Closed circuit surveillance was first launched downtown in the summer of 2004.

[FairHamilton]

Infringing on civil liberties creates a steep, slippery slope.

I find it interesting this is in the news today, since this mornings Spec had an article outlining the decline in crime in Hamilton without CCTV being in these areas.

[flar]

As far as I know, there is no evidence that these even work.

My own observations tell me the drug trade continues to flourish in Gore Park and along King St. downtown despite the cameras.

[DC83]

I don't have a problem with them in particular, but is there any evidence that the cameras they have already set up are working?

[SteelTown]

I don't have a problem with this. As long the BIA or a group approves it first than go ahead.

This was Mayor Fred's election promise, add more cameras. Bratina also promised for cameras along James St North.

[FairHamilton]

I've seen no info they reduce crime (usually it moves around the corner), or improves arrest/conviction rates.

Last October in Toronto there was a 5 handgun, 40 shot shootout on Adelaide Street, less than 1/2 block from the Toronto Police camera at Peter and Adelaide. Number of arrests so far, zero.

I have no problem with the cameras. What I have a problem with what they could mean for future civil liberties. We'll all get used to this minor encroachment on our civil liberites, and then they'll introduce something a little more, and so on, and so on.

Just like when the price of gas goes up and everyone gets used to paying $.75/L, and then gets used to paying $1.00/L and then gets used to paying $1.25/L, and then $1.35/L, and so on........

[adam]

^^ completely agree

[SteelTown]

Four new areas of Hamilton to get surveillance cameras

September 15, 2008
By Jackson Hayes

Hamilton police plan to put closed circuit television cameras in four new areas of the city.

The program, which already has five cameras in the downtown core, will now include cameras on James Street North, Ottawa Street, Concession Street and in Hess Village, all capable of beaming live video to nearby police divisions.

Police Chief Brian Mullan today called the cameras “extremely advantageous” and said they will offer police another set of eyes to serve the community.
“We hope it will bring good things to the areas they’re being installed in,” he told the board of police commissioners.

According to Deputy Chief Ken Leendertse, who heads the project, 10 to 12 new cameras will monitor the areas 24 hours a day and keep recorded material for 72 hours.

The $100,000 tab for equipment and monitoring systems has already been approved by the board.

Board member Mark Nimigan said though he had no objection to the cameras, he did wonder how far expansion would go before “Big Brother is watching all over the city.”

Mullan said the plan will happen in small steps and only build if it is successful. He insisted cameras are “just one small piece of a total crime-fighting recipe.”

Dean Collett, who owns Sizzle Steakhouse, Koi Restaurant, Diavolo and the Funky Munky, all in Hess Village, welcomes the new cameras as long as they are used in the right spirit.

“I’m for it. It’s another layer of security on top of all the other security we have down there,” he said.

Hess Village is slated for three cameras and Collett, who has had 15 break-ins in the last two years, said he will support them as long as they’re “used to curb major crime and as an investigators’ tool.”

The cameras were proposed in 1998 and this expansion builds on the city’s pilot project from June 2004.

Unlike the five current cameras, which are hardwired to the viewing facilities, the new “eyes in the sky” will use Internet Protocol (IP) technology, which sends the images to receivers via the Internet using a secure network.

Leendertse said the new camera locations were chosen by police with the help of the community.

“Deterrence is the first thing,” he said.

“The second thing is that we’re actually apprehending offenders on camera … it’s a good crime-fighting tool.”

[the dude]

i can only assume that the reporter didn't press leendertse to qualify his statement that cameras are 'a good crime-fighting tool.' i'd like some proof that we're actually safer by being under constant observation before i give up my civil liberties.

[SteelTown]

If you have nothing to hide you shouldn't have a problem with the cameras. After 70 hrs the tapes are destroyed.

We can put up 20 cameras and patrol 20 spots with a staff of perhaps two. That's a lot cheaper than paying 20 cops with a salary of over $80,000 a year plus 15% for benefits, $92,000.

[flar]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

If you have nothing to hide

..you have everything to fear.

[the dude]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

If you have nothing to hide you shouldn't have a problem with the cameras.

ugh, i'm so tired of that constant refrain. and by the way, these cameras aren't being set-up in your neighbourhood, are they? didn't think so. furthermore, who gives a damn about the police budget? i'm more than happy to pay them to do their job...cameras and segways aside.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by the dude

ugh, i'm so tired of that constant refrain. and by the way, these cameras aren't being set-up in your neighbourhood, are they? didn't think so. furthermore, who gives a damn about the police budget? i'm more than happy to pay them to do their job...cameras and segways aside.

I live in the Downtown BIA and yes the cameras are in my neighbourhood. The 'constant refrain' has merit in public places, not in the home.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by Millstone

I live in the Downtown BIA and yes the cameras are in my neighbourhood. The 'constant refrain' has merit in public places, not in the home.

So, if you live in the area of one of these cameras you'll keep all your blinds pulled?

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by FairHamilton

So, if you live in the area of one of these cameras you'll keep all your blinds pulled?

What? They're not aimed at anybody's home.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

If you have nothing to hide you shouldn't have a problem with the cameras. After 70 hrs the tapes are destroyed.

Really, it's the 'creep' that worries me. Once this becomes the norm, someone will come up with one more way to keep us 'safe' and ratchet up the invasion of our privacy one more notch.

If 'good things' happen in the areas will they take the cameras down, or will they shift their statements to the effect that their continued presence are necessary to keep the 'good things'? People they are good and you really, really need them........

If crime moves around the corner will they remove them because all it's done is shift crime, not stop/prevent it. Or, will they continue to expand until they are on every street corner?

Man, did you see gas this morning at $1.29/L isn't it a real deal, and if it hits $1.20/L it will be like they are giving it away. Oh yeah, it was less than $1.00/L a year ago, but I quickly got used to paying $1.36/L.........

[ryan_mcgreal]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

If you have nothing to hide you shouldn't have a problem with the cameras.

Nope, you've got it exactly backwards. As Bruce Schneier points out, "If I'm not doing anything wrong, then you have no cause to watch me."

Everyone has something to hide, and most people, most of the time, have legitimate reasons to want to hide aspects of their lives. Do you write all your correspondence on postcards? Do you walk around naked? Of course not.

I have a public life and a private life. Even when I go out in public, I take my private life with me. When I walk in public, where I go, who I meet, and so on are simply none of the government's business, but CCTV makes that information available to the government if they decide they want it.

I don't care how quickly they claim to destroy the tapes. I don't care even if they're telling the truth. I don't care if they're so understaffed or incompetent that they never actually look at the tapes. They have no cause and no right to collect that information in the first place.

Even if CCTV deterred crime - which it incontravertibly doesn't - I still don't agree to trade a little privacy for a little security. If the streets are dangerous, identify the source of the danger and address it. That's how the government should work. Installing security cameras is nothing more than an admission that they don't have any ideas.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal

Nope, you've got it exactly backwards. As Bruce Schneier points out, "If I'm not doing anything wrong, then you have no cause to watch me."

Everyone has something to hide, and most people, most of the time, have legitimate reasons to want to hide aspects of their lives. Do you write all your correspondence on postcards? Do you walk around naked? Of course not.

I have a public life and a private life. Even when I go out in public, I take my private life with me. When I walk in public, where I go, who I meet, and so on are simply none of the government's business, but CCTV makes that information available to the government if they decide they want it.

I don't care how quickly they claim to destroy the tapes. I don't care even if they're telling the truth. I don't care if they're so understaffed or incompetent that they never actually look at the tapes. They have no cause and no right to collect that information in the first place.

Even if CCTV deterred crime - which it incontravertibly doesn't - I still don't agree to trade a little privacy for a little security. If the streets are dangerous, identify the source of the danger and address it. That's how the government should work. Installing security cameras is nothing more than an admission that they don't have any ideas.

absolutely! Well said.

[geoff's two cents]

I am on board with this assessment as well. To be honest, I have often fallen back on the maxim that if you have done nothing wrong, there is nothing to worry about.

It makes less sense in my opinion, however, when one considers that there is no (absolutely none) replacement for officers in the flesh patrolling on foot. As much disdain as I generally have for Westdale (no offense to Westdalians intended - It's just not my bag), I have to say that the presence of uniformed officers walking up and down Sterling St. for the first week of classes was a welcome sight. The advantages of video surveillance do not, I think, outweigh the disadvantages of losing one's ability to enjoy the public realm without being filed and ordered by authorities any more than is absolutely necessary.

Or, perhaps my change of heart is due equally to having just recently seen an excellent German film, "The Lives of Others," which concerns the tragic consequences of government surveillance in pre-1989 East Germany. Given the recent controversy over increasingly invasive techniques of government surveillance in western governments, post-9/11, I can't help but think this film to be a very topical one. Well worth seeing - Apparently it won an academy award.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by geoff's two cents

I am on board with this assessment as well. To be honest, I have often fallen back on the maxim that if you have done nothing wrong, there is nothing to worry about.

It makes less sense in my opinion, however, when one considers that there is no (absolutely none) replacement for officers in the flesh patrolling on foot. As much disdain as I generally have for Westdale (no offense to Westdalians intended - It's just not my bag), I have to say that the presence of uniformed officers walking up and down Sterling St. for the first week of classes was a welcome sight. The advantages of video surveillance do not, I think, outweigh the disadvantages of losing one's ability to enjoy the public realm without being filed and ordered by authorities any more than is absolutely necessary.

Or, perhaps my change of heart is due equally to having just recently seen an excellent German film, "The Lives of Others," which concerns the tragic consequences of government surveillance in pre-1989 East Germany. Given the recent controversy over increasingly invasive techniques of government surveillance in western governments, post-9/11, I can't help but think this film to be a very topical one. Well worth seeing - Apparently it won an academy award.

ah, you almost had me interested in the film until mentioning the academy award!
Lol....nah, it sounds good...I'll try to check it out.

I also used to think "i've done nothing wrong, so no worry" until I got nabbed in the US at an airport and fingerprinted, had my prints put into the computer, held up for a long time etc..... I've never done a thing in my life.
Since then, I've come to realize that most likely the US didn't like certain things I was writing online about their foreign policy and overall crappy state.
Their thugs thought they'd harass me for a while to make their point, but the only real point made is how invasive and undemocratic they are.
They LOVE stuff like CCTV.