STL- The Beautiful & The Broken

[OakAngeles]

This thread is the result of 2 Amtrak trips from Chicago to St. Louis that I made in late fall/early winter of 2025. Even though it was only a few weeks apart I found a very different palette each time.

For a HIGHER QUALITY version of these photos check out my Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/196461637@N07/albums/

Departing Snowy Chicago














































































































































































Round2

























The difference a few weeks can make

[STLgasm]

Really great set! St. Louis has a lot of problems, but a lack of character ain’t one of ‘em.

[Cirrus]

Thanks for the thread!

Jesus. So many cities have made so much progress, I'm not sure I knew we still had this kind of blight in the US. Houses, sure, but big buildings like that? Haven't seen that in a long time.

What's the story with this place?'

This is a cool building.

[OhioGuy]

I’ve never explored St. Louis but I’ll be visiting next month and hope to spend some time out exploring if the weather cooperates. These photos have given me some ideas on spots to check out!

[benp]

Thanks for the tour. It was especially great seeing the perspectives from the RR.

[OakAngeles]

Originally Posted by STLgasm

Really great set! St. Louis has a lot of problems, but a lack of character ain’t one of ‘em.

Agreed. Everywhere had something interesting to offer and while some of the neighborhoods obviously have lost large sections of the older housing stock, the places that have been preserved probably have the most complete historical character of anywhere I've been.
One surprise was the mix of architecture more common in the Northeast (red brick rowhouses etc) with the far more French inspired, New Orleans- esque houses, especially around Lafayette & Benton Park. As a place that historically was a bit of a dividing line between the cultures of the North & South it was exciting to see that written in the actual masonry of the city

[OakAngeles]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Thanks for the thread!

Jesus. So many cities have made so much progress, I'm not sure I knew we still had this kind of blight in the US. Houses, sure, but big buildings like that? Haven't seen that in a long time.

What's the story with this place?'

This is a cool building.

So, tbf this warehouse did burn down only about a week or so before my second visit. I actually have a picture of it from my first trip at almost the same angle for comparison





It was intended to be a keystone of a larger "Gateway South" redevelopment project but obviously if that happens now it will be in a very different manner. It had been at least partially abandoned and parts of it (mostly the complex to the west) were already hollowed out by previous fires, so it definitely is a victim of blight but maybe just not as extreme as that single photo would imply

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The building with the plane on top is called "City Museum" and it is a "folk art" style "exploratorium" kind of place. Not even sure how to describe it exactly. I didn't have a chance to go but I've heard amazing things about it and the history of it is also worth looking into.

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And that rounded building was actually my hotel on the 2nd trip I don't remember any other building with rounded facades in STL so it really stood out in a cool way

[OakAngeles]

Originally Posted by OhioGuy

I’ve never explored St. Louis but I’ll be visiting next month and hope to spend some time out exploring if the weather cooperates. These photos have given me some ideas on spots to check out!

That's awesome! It is a pretty amazing city if you know where to go. I would recommend spending some time around the Central West End & the Midtown/ Arts District area if youre in search of the more lively neighborhoods. At least during my visit, downtown seemed almost covid- era empty while the West Side of the City was way more vibrant. In a lot of ways, it seems like the center of the city has shifted westward toward Forest Park, leaving the East side behind. I imagine if theres conventions or sporting events going on, and also when its above freezing cold that downtown may come to life a bit more but that was my experience at least

As for architecture, Soulard & Lafayette Park/Square are probably the most historically immersive neighborhoods I've ever been to. Would very, very highly recommend paying those a visit

If you need any recs or have any questions before the trip feel free to shoot me a message!

[ColDayMan]

Great tour!

[plinko]

I don’t have much experience with St Louis and sadly haven’t been there since 1994(!). Seems like a city that both is a treasure trove but also still struggles a bit. I have two colleagues who went to Wash U who rave about how interesting it is.

Maybe I need a trip for a Cardinals game…

Great photos as always.

Honest question: is St Louis the most struggling big city in the US? You can find so many thing about other rust belt cities and their metro areas that seem to be righting themselves. Honestly I cannot think of much for STL (admittedly ignorant).

[OakAngeles]

Originally Posted by plinko

I don’t have much experience with St Louis and sadly haven’t been there since 1994(!). Seems like a city that both is a treasure trove but also still struggles a bit. I have two colleagues who went to Wash U who rave about how interesting it is.

Maybe I need a trip for a Cardinals game…

Great photos as always.

Honest question: is St Louis the most struggling big city in the US? You can find so many thing about other rust belt cities and their metro areas that seem to be righting themselves. Honestly I cannot think of much for STL (admittedly ignorant).

Treasure trove is a pretty apt description. There is a lot of truly incredible and unique architecture, unfortunately the city was one of the first and probably the most heavy handed in its pursuit of "urban renewal" and that has left a lot of deep scars even half a century later. What's left is a lot of beautiful places but without a cohesive urban fabric to tie it all together and that is one of the challenges it has imo.

The closest comparison from my experience is Detroit, which I've visited twice now and which was clearly much more on the mend than STL. It also suffered from most, if not all of the same issues, but had its downtown mostly intact and so when it started rehabbing its urban core, it could point to that single crown jewel as a sign of progress. St. Louis does have some neighborhoods that have seen very positive growth, especially in Midtown/Central West End. Unfortunately, the growth has been fairly piecemeal rather than a concerted effort in one region, which does not give it the same kind of positive PR to point to. Outside of those areas, other parts are still shrinking and decaying rapidly. During the time I was there(which was only about 3 days total between the two trips) I witnessed 2 buildings on fire in addition to the warehouse that had burnt down a few days earlier.

What I've noticed about the Rust Belt in general is that a lot of places have revived their downtowns and seen population growth in the core city even as outer neighborhoods might be shrinking, but that the city as a whole is reaching positive growth. Chicago is still losing population in parts of the South Side but has seen tremendous growth in River North, West Loop etc which makes up for it. Detroit obviously has Corktown and Midtown where development is at a breakneck pace, even while some of the fringe neighborhoods are losing residents still. St. Louis has some very positive things going on in certain places, but whereas Detroit succeeded at making Downtown the core of the larger metro again (even if it has lots of abandoned areas in the immediate vicinity), St. Louis has not been able to do that yet.

I really do think STL has a chance at growth again, and it does still have many institutions and economic engines (universities, medical centers, offices, arenas, theatres...) that set it apart from the suburbs and will bring the commuters in, but if it can't revive larger sections of the city into being desirable for new residents rather than just a few new apartments, I do think it will continue to struggle with being just sort of part of its metro rather than the core of it

[OakAngeles]

Originally Posted by benp

Thanks for the tour. It was especially great seeing the perspectives from the RR.

Appreciate it! Entering into the city over the river by train was one of the coolest parts of the trip, even if the RR trestle is a bit concernedly rickety when you see if from the ground

[ThatDarnSacramentan]

Great set. I'm glad you made it to City Museum. I think in all my travels, that's the one place where I'm most glad I went out of my way to spend time there. Even though I'd seen photos of it before, it was such a trippy, unique experience. I'd go back to St. Louis to explore that more over visiting the Arch again (although that's also plenty trippy in a different way).

[OakAngeles]

Originally Posted by ThatDarnSacramentan

Great set. I'm glad you made it to City Museum. I think in all my travels, that's the one place where I'm most glad I went out of my way to spend time there. Even though I'd seen photos of it before, it was such a trippy, unique experience. I'd go back to St. Louis to explore that more over visiting the Arch again (although that's also plenty trippy in a different way).

Didn't get a chance to actually go in this time but I'm absolutely going to make another trip to go see it. It looks incredible and I can't believe I hadn't heard of it before. I have some nephews who would lose their minds over it, so I might have to make a trip down there with the family

[OakAngeles]

Originally Posted by ColDayMan

Great tour!

Appreciate you taking the time to check it out

[meh]

Yeah... welcome to STL, where arsonists and the homeless burn down irreplaceable historic landmarks every other day. Vagrants burned down the Crunden-Martin warehouse complex the day after Thanksgiving, just as it was preparing to undergo rehab into office, retail, and industrial space as part of a billion+ dollar redevelopment of the south riverfront.



Pretty sure vagrants also set fire to the St. Liborius rectory a few months ago (building on the left below) which had previously been used as a women's shelter. The church itself had been repurposed as a fucking incredible indoor skate park that had received national attention (http://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/17/op...-liborius.html) but that burned down too, of course.





Between the fires; the parasitic, negligent property owners (many of them out-of-state); the weird, unrelenting suburban hatred toward the city (including from the business community); and the backward-as-fuck state of MO, it's a seemingly never-ending uphill battle.

And speaking of parasitic property owners, the Church of Scientology has owned this beauty in Lafayette Square for decades now, and they just fucking refuse to do anything with it.



Detroit is fortunate to have a business community that is rallying around its downtown, which is where most of Detroit's success has been centered and makes for good PR. Conversely, St. Louis' oblivious business community continues to triple down on suburban office parks like it's 1960 while bitching incessantly about crime even though crime is the lowest it's been in decades.

[meh]

Originally Posted by plinko

Honest question: is St Louis the most struggling big city in the US? You can find so many thing about other rust belt cities and their metro areas that seem to be righting themselves. Honestly I cannot think of much for STL (admittedly ignorant).

I wouldn't say St. Louis metro is struggling. Growth has been slow but I can't recall a decade where the metro lost population. And STL is by far the state's economic engine (something like 45% STL vs 25% KC). The problem is that sprawl has far outpaced population growth, so resources keep getting stretched thinner and thinner. And the City has borne the brunt of that, though the inner ring suburbs are starting to feel it too. I mean, there's development going on around the City, with building permits averaging about a billion $ per year over the last decade. If the majority of that development were occurring downtown, as it is with Detroit, I think public perception would be very different. Curious... can you give some examples of "so many thing about other rust belt cities and their metro areas that seem to be righting themselves" that you are not seeing from STL (aside from recent, modest population gains)? We'd have a shiny new North-South light rail line starting construction in a couple of years if a certain political party hadn't burned the country to the ground.

[OakAngeles]

Originally Posted by meh

And speaking of parasitic property owners, the Church of Scientology has owned this beauty in Lafayette Square for decades now, and they just fucking refuse to do anything with it.

I was wondering about this building, since Lafayette has clearly been seeing a lot of rehab/development and there was quite a bit of new construction just up the street. That's a damn shame b/c it would be a great addition to the area if it were in use again. Do you know any of the history of it before that by any chance?

Also, I had originally heard about St. Liborius b/c of the skatepark conversion and that is a massive loss. That was a truly unique landmark and I'm sad that it's gone. When researching history about the city, I saw a quote something like "We don't cry over lost buildings in St. Louis because otherwise our tears would reach the Mississippi and overflow the levies" and sadly that still seems very relevant

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And to kind of touch on the city/metro/state divide, it is sad to see the state have an openly antagonistic approach to the city, even as KC has become a darling of urban development in the last few years. The city has the necessary infrastructure and consolidated services to constitute a very solid ROI if investment were done properly which would benefit the state tremendously as well, instead of spreading resources thin across a bunch of low density sprawl like you said
I agree that it does seem like an uphill battle though, and I second your frustration. The metro does seem very intentionally disconnected from the city in my experience. I took the train out to Clayton at one point and while the rail system does provide a pretty useful transit backbone for the city/metro, it seems uninterested in providing service anywhere outside of the main East/West corridor, which itself felt very disconnected from the neighborhoods where people actually lived. In a better world, the green line would have started to tie all the pieces back together again, but ffs i hope they AT LEAST build the Rapid bus line to replace it. Its way less of a win, but at least maybe it'll be something.

Just out of curiosity, from a (I'm assuming) local, if you could do any few things to spur development in STL what would they be? On that long train trip back I spent some time thinking about it and have a few 'armchair urban planning' takes but I'm curious what someone with more familiarity with the region would prioritize

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by OakAngeles

Didn't get a chance to actually go in this time but I'm absolutely going to make another trip to go see it. It looks incredible and I can't believe I hadn't heard of it before. I have some nephews who would lose their minds over it, so I might have to make a trip down there with the family

Don't miss the City Museum next time you're in St. Louis. Even better if you can experience it with some kids.

It's seriously one of the coolest things my family has ever done. It makes Disney World seem like the lamest place on earth by comparison.

As for st. Louis being the most struggling major city, it seems to me to be mostly a downtown problem. Downtown St. Louis has very real and severe headwinds, but there are some great nabes out in the rest of the city.


Anyway, thanks for the tour, great pics!!

[meh]

Originally Posted by OakAngeles

Do you know any of the history of it before that by any chance?

Here's some background on 2345 Lafayette Ave: https://www.urbanreviewstl.com/2012/...louis-germans/.

Originally Posted by OakAngeles

Also, I had originally heard about St. Liborius b/c of the skatepark conversion and that is a massive loss. That was a truly unique landmark and I'm sad that it's gone.

Likewise. It was an amazing, one-of-a-kind place. And IMO St. Liborius was the most beautiful church ever built in St. Louis (check out photos of the original spire), so I was pretty devastated when it burned. Last I heard, the owners are actually hoping to rebuild. There's a Go-Fund-Me, but it doesn't seem to have taken off: https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-sk8-liborius.

Originally Posted by OakAngeles

Just out of curiosity, from a (I'm assuming) local, if you could do any few things to spur development in STL what would they be? On that long train trip back I spent some time thinking about it and have a few 'armchair urban planning' takes but I'm curious what someone with more familiarity with the region would prioritize

I grew up in St. Louis but currently live on the east coast. I moved back to St. Louis briefly in 2017–2018 for a job that didn't work out, but in a year or so I'm hoping to transition to something remote so I can spend part time in St. Louis and part time in Philly (where my spouse is employed). Regardless, I'm there several times per year to visit family.

Anyway, I'm interested to hear your "armchair" takes. Here are 4 of the most badly needed changes in my mind:

1) Go hard on traffic calming (way too many overly-wide thoroughfares throughout the city), zero tolerance for traffic violence, narrow roads all over the place, and aggressively expand pedestrian/cyclist infrastructure.

2) Get serious about levying severe fines on negligent property owners, and streamline the taking of neglected properties through eminent domain. Some progress has been made recently, with increased fines and a couple of prominent eminent domain threats used to spur movement (Railway Exchange and Millennium Hotel). I believe there was some legislation in the past few years making it easier for neighbors to sue negligent owners, which has been used in a couple high-profile cases. But negligent owners are a huge problem throughout the City, and something drastic needs to be done about it.

3) Expand and modernize transit: a N-S light rail line through the meat of the city that sort-of follows the curvature of the river to complements the E-W line and complete the backbone; then more bus routes, increased frequency, and streamlined fare collection to form the connective tissue. and bus rapid transit to serve the suburbs.

4) In additional to office conversions and the occasional new high-rise, the city should make it effortless to build smaller residential (row houses, town houses, X-fams) on the scads of empty lots surrounding downtown to reconnect it to the neighborhoods north and west (sadly the railroad gash to the south will be hard to connect, I think, and the east side of the river is a whole other ordeal). A big part of DT's problem is that it's so disconnected from the surrounding city, and DT residential density isn't high enough to support robust commercial.