Ottawa Gatineau O-Train expansion | Fantasy

[The Conductor]

It seems obvious that over the next 10 years the O-Train will run from south Bank St heading north right into Gatineau. I'm guessing with the wide spread support of Hull residents that Prince of Wales Bridge is going to need to be upgraded and be back to use. It's the best way to get the O-Train into Gatineau. This is from the Ottawa Sun and makes sense:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/01/27/...s-and-gatineau

With the development of LeBreton Flats getting underway the O-Train will end up playing a vital role in East-West and North-South Ottawa/Gatineau events and traffic

[Hybrid247]

I can see the O-train crossing the river from Bayview to Gatineau within the next 10 years, but there's no way that it'll be travelling down Bank within the next 2 decades. It would definitely require a tunnel which would cost at least a couple billion. And knowing this city, they would rather spend that money to extend the confederation line to Kanata, Barrhaven, and Riverside South before they any kind of major transit improvement is made in the core.

[Hybrid247]

Just noticed that was your first post. Welcome to the forum!

[The Conductor]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Just noticed that was your first post. Welcome to the forum!

Thanks!

It seems the line which the Wakefield steam train used to run from Wakefield into Hull we could see the O-Train run right into Wakefield - once work on the Prince of Wales Bridge crossing is complete.

Interesting to see Gatineau & Ottawa move in this direction

[silvergate]

Originally Posted by The Conductor

Thanks!

It seems the line which the Wakefield steam train used to run from Wakefield into Hull we could see the O-Train run right into Wakefield - once work on the Prince of Wales Bridge crossing is complete.

Interesting to see Gatineau & Ottawa move in this direction

I feel like Wakefield isn't a large enough place to justify extension of LRT there. I know MOOSE wants to run commuter rail out there, but if Trillium line went North it probably wouldn't go past St. Joseph

[The Conductor]

Originally Posted by silvergate

I feel like Wakefield isn't a large enough place to justify extension of LRT there. I know MOOSE wants to run commuter rail out there, but if Trillium line went North it probably wouldn't go past St. Joseph

With the LeBreton Flats development now going forward, the Senators group has made it very clear that they feel the Prince of Wales Bridge crossing is going to be a key role in O-Train expansion into Gatineau. The Mayor has basically said the same thing, as has the NCC.

If the rail line is already there from downtown Gatineau to Wakefield it seems like it really isn't a big deal.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by The Conductor

If the rail line is already there from downtown Gatineau to Wakefield it seems like it really isn't a big deal.

The big deal is that Gatineau has invested in BRT right along the side of the railway right of way and the BRT uses the rail bridge to cross the Gatineau River because they chose not to go with LRT from the beginning just like Ottawa did. You are right though, that cost wise it would not be a big deal to extend the Trillium line O-Train across the river and on to points east or north of Gatineau. Particularly since electrification would not be required in the early stages. This is where we need some leadership from the federal government and the NCC. Neither Ottawa nor Gatineau has shown much interest in crossing the river using rail technology. The current Trillium iine needs to be fully double tracked before this ever has a chance of succeeding.

[eternallyme]

Honestly, I think the best plan for the Trillium Line is to cross the river, turn it onto pre-existing track remnants of the east-west line, and then terminate at a station across from Terrasses de la Chaudiere at the corner of Tache and Eddy.

That would provide a new connection to Gatineau at Bayview at fairly low cost, while connecting to the #2 business area in the region while at the same time preserving the rest of the corridor for STO uses. Those who transfer to work at Chaudiere or Portage (a short walk away) would transfer from the Confederation Line at Bayview and go north one stop. Additionally, those who live in Gatineau and work south or west of downtown Ottawa (such as Confederation Heights, Dow's Lake, Carleton University or Tunney's Pasture), would save considerable time with that connection. Instead of walking through the Rideau Centre or moving up three or four blocks to transfer to a bus, they could connect to the Trillium Line at Chaudiere (and, if necessary, the Confederation Line west at Bayview). STO buses would need to continue to go downtown, but not quite as many trips would be necessary in Ottawa - I would estimate about 20% of passengers on STO buses across the bridges during peak periods are transferring to an OC Transpo bus, of which the majority (but not all) are heading south or west.

[zzptichka]

Wakefield has Ski Vorlage steps from the rail.
Could be a good winter destination. Black Sheep Inn. Scenic train ride for tourists in the summer and fall.
It probably doesn't make sense to electrify all the way, but running diesel O-trains once they are taken off Trillium line, might work.

[The Conductor]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Wakefield has Ski Vorlage steps from the rail.
Could be a good winter destination. Black Sheep Inn. Scenic train ride for tourists in the summer and fall.
It probably doesn't make sense to electrify all the way, but running diesel O-trains once they are taken off Trillium line, might work.

I agree 100%, you simply transfer the existing diesel O-Train over to the Wakefield into Gatineau line. There is a lot of population from Wakefield right down through Cantley into Hull.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by The Conductor

With the LeBreton Flats development now going forward, the Senators group has made it very clear that they feel the Prince of Wales Bridge crossing is going to be a key role in O-Train expansion into Gatineau. The Mayor has basically said the same thing, as has the NCC.

If the rail line is already there from downtown Gatineau to Wakefield it seems like it really isn't a big deal.

The line isn't there. A section of it washed out some 5-6 years ago on a very rainy St-Jean-Baptiste weekend.

[The Conductor]

Originally Posted by Horus

The line isn't there. A section of it washed out some 5-6 years ago on a very rainy St-Jean-Baptiste weekend.

I understand a section washed away, that is really not a big deal, because the majority of it is still there

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by The Conductor

I understand a section washed away, that is really not a big deal, because the majority of it is still there

According to Wikipedia, the cost of repairs is estimated at over $5 million. And that is just to fix that section. Other upgrades and repairs would also likely be needed to make it ready for regular service (including measures to prevent future washouts). The steam train was required to run at a snails pace, and it wouldn't be used for anything more than as an excursion at those speeds. Passing tracks would also be necessary, unless you only offered 1 or 2 round trips a day.

The problem with replacing the Rapibus line with rail, is there is no easy way to get the train from Gatineau to Terrasses de la Chaudière (or beyond) without either tunneling or expropriating lots of land (or go via Bayview as the existing approach into Hull is only from the south and west). As a result the train would only be for those traveling to/from Ottawa and even then it would require a transfer at Bayview.

If the O-Train is extended across the PoW bridge, the only likely destination in the short term is Terrasses de la Chaudière. This would primarily be useful for:

• Ottawa residents working in Hull,
• Gatineau residents going to Carleton, and
• possibly Gatineau residents going to events at the new LeBreton Arena (though most would still need to transfer, so it is uncertain if direct buses wouldn't be better).

The question is, will these users provide enough demand to make it worth the cost?

One day all of this will be viable, so we should keep the infrastructure available, I am just not convinced today is that day.

[McC]

Don't forget Gatineau residents going to Tunney's and future (re)developments further west along the LRT for whom bypassing downtown would have value that could offset the transfer penalties if service/connections are comfortable, reliable and quick.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The question is, will these users provide enough demand to make it worth the cost?

Yes, unless the current ridership of the O-train was not worth the cost.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Yes, unless the current ridership of the O-train was not worth the cost.

That statement assumes the extension would cost the same as the O-train and would serve the same number of riders.

The main reason the O-train is so successful, is that it has Carleton University in the middle of the route, which was awkward to get to by bus. As a comparison, the train wouldn't make it that much easier to get to/from downtown Hull than the current buses (if anything it would be worse as it would likely end at Terrasses de la Chaudière).

From a cost perspective, I suspect it will cost a lot more to rehabilitate the PoW bridge and upgrade the tracks to Terrasses de la Chaudière than was initially spent on the Trillium line, even if they kept it as single track (admittedly an assumption on my part).

So from a cost/benefit analysis standpoint, I am not convinced they are the same.

[Aylmer]

I think that the POW bridge is obviously useful as A transit connection, but it would be disastrous as THE transit connection:
- It's both well west of downtown Hull and far west of downtown Ottawa
- Its capacity is limited by the single-tracked sections, which is a problem if we're trying to funnel a significant number of commuters across in both directions.
- It would mean that any transit from Aylmer or Gatineau would have its frequency split in half: one line/branch to Hull, another to Bayview. That translates to really bad transfers at Bayview.

I maintain that the only truly viable transit connection is via the Alexandra Bridge and the old rail RoW to the Plaza Bridge (beside/under the Château Laurier) since it allows for the same line to serve both cores directly without splitting frequencies or requiring any major new infrastructure* (heck, even the old streetcar loop is still there under Wellington). Using both the Alexandra and the POW would also allow for a future, electrified Trillium Line to reach downtown via Hull.


*I say 'major' because it doesn't require a new bridge or tunnel, but it would most likely still require the reconversion of the car decks of the Alexandra Bridge, the reconfiguration of the Ottawa approach to the bridge, the expropriation of the Rent-a-Bike under the Plaza Bridge and the six HoC meeting rooms in the old Photography museum, and the construction of a passageway from the station to Rideau under Rideau street from the Canal to Sussex.

[The Conductor]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I think that the POW bridge is obviously useful as A transit connection, but it would be disastrous as THE transit connection:
- It's both well west of downtown Hull and far west of downtown Ottawa
- Its capacity is limited by the single-tracked sections, which is a problem if we're trying to funnel a significant number of commuters across in both directions.
- It would mean that any transit from Aylmer or Gatineau would have its frequency split in half: one line/branch to Hull, another to Bayview. That translates to really bad transfers at Bayview.

I maintain that the only truly viable transit connection is via the Alexandra Bridge and the old rail RoW to the Plaza Bridge (beside/under the Château Laurier) since it allows for the same line to serve both cores directly without splitting frequencies or requiring any major new infrastructure* (heck, even the old streetcar loop is still there under Wellington). Using both the Alexandra and the POW would also allow for a future, electrified Trillium Line to reach downtown via Hull.


*I say 'major' because it doesn't require a new bridge or tunnel, but it would most likely still require the reconversion of the car decks of the Alexandra Bridge, the reconfiguration of the Ottawa approach to the bridge, the expropriation of the Rent-a-Bike under the Plaza Bridge and the six HoC meeting rooms in the old Photography museum, and the construction of a passageway from the station to Rideau under Rideau street from the Canal to Sussex.

Excellent points which allow for more O-Train access

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

the expropriation of the Rent-a-Bike under the Plaza Bridge and the six HoC meeting rooms in the old Photography museum,

Governments can't expropriate one another's property. If there's to be a transfer or lease, they have to negotiate it like big people.