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  #1  
Old Posted May 25, 2009, 11:46 PM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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Verrado...interesting place

So yesterday, we decided to take a trip to Verrado just for the hell of it. I had heard about it before, about the tree lined streets and the "town square" plus the older style architecture so why not.

It's a very interesting place. It has a lot of the qualities that I've asked over and over of why home builders don't do anymore, such as the tree lined streets. While not as common here in Phoenix as in the midwest and east coast, even Phoenix in the early days had streets lined with shade or palm trees. I think it gives neighborhoods a much better feel, much more inviting and easier to walk. Not to mention, they did this to every street, even the ones with no development. Smart move, as when they do build in years down the road, the trees will be mature. Back alleys, with garage access from the alley, not the street. Rowhomes, again with very little setback.

The "town square" are was done very well and felt authentic, I was asking myself "How can they pull off 0 setback here, and downtown Phoenix seems to struggle with the concept so much?" This place has a street front CVS, Bashas, dry cleaner, coffee shop, and pizza/wine bar. It really did have a feel that we were in another town, maybe Prescott but much smaller.

The strange thing though...we went from...

"Wow, this place is amazing, I could definitely see living here" to

"It's nice" to

"Wow, there sure are a lot of kids and people seem to move (drive) slower" to

"It feels sort of isolated" to

"I feel like I'm on a movie set".

While the place had your basic necessities, such as pharmacy and grocery, where do you get gas if you need? Where do you get something from a hardware store? Driving back home, we did pass a Home Depot about 6-7 miles from Verrado on the I-10, and the distance isn't that bad, but it felt completely isolated.
If you are married, have kids and don't go out much, it could be a very good place. Definitely had that small town feel, everyone knows each other, all the kids go to the same school type of thing. But if not, then it could be a little weird.

Last gripe...while the homes looked great on the outside, they disappointed inside. I would have looked to the style followed through with large baseboards, crown moldings, and encased windows and doorways. They had none of that, the inside looked like any other tract home anywhere else in the Valley.















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  #2  
Old Posted May 26, 2009, 10:01 AM
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HooverDam HooverDam is offline
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Verrado certainly is an interesting place, you can see some of the photos I took of it (and other parts of the SW Valley) here.

While Ill certainly take New Urbanist developments like Verrado over typical sprawl any day, they still leave a lot to be desired. Ive read nearly every book put about the New Urbanist cult people and they all seem to be missing the mark in the same way. Andres Duany and Co have these brilliant ideas about how to lay out a town, to increase pedestrian activity, to use alleys, shade trees, on street parking, et cetera but the buildings themselves are just awful.

It seems that they're interest in using the historical pattern in which towns were developed somehow seeped over into them wanting to recreate old buildings as well. While I can certainly understand them being adverse to some styles of overly cold modernism or brutalism, a lot of clean contemporary architecture is beautiful. The bullshit fake historicism is what makes all the New Urbanist developments feel like creepy Disneylands. There's a reason they shot THE TRUMAN SHOW at Seaside, its because it looks fucking fake, like a TV set. I haven't been to a lot of New Urbanist developments, but I always have this weird feeling thats some mix between being in the Twilight Zone and thinking everyone is a covert Neo Nazi- its weird. The fake historical architecture just doesn't feel right or comfortable.

The other big problem with New Urbanist developments is of course the lack of retail and office space. While they obviously do a thousand times better job at this than your typical sprawling subdivision, its still not enough. Like you noted the people in Verrado can walk to the CVS or Bashas, but thats about it. They have to drive for hardware, movies, etc.. But thats to be expected with any development on a far flung fringe. Growing up in Ahwautukee before it was really developed my Mom would get groceries and things in Mesa on her way home from work, I guess thats just part of being an exurban pioneer.

What really needs to happen to create a fully integrated 'new town' is something like a Verrado with a CityNorth/Kierland in the middle of it, serving as its downtown. Of course this is difficult to have at the start since "retail follows rooftops." You'd have trouble getting the capital lent to you to build it all at once on going for a somewhat unproven concept of building it simultaneously.

Of course the worst thing about the New Urbanist developments we've had here in AZ is that they're all on greenfield sites. I wish more could be done on large infill sites, but obviously the economics of that are difficult. If it were possible for a developer to acquire a large enough parcel near one of the suburban downtowns (i.e. Downtown Gilbert) I think they could really build something excellent. You wouldn't have to provide as much office and retail in your own development if you integrated it well with the existing downtown, and since it would be near already established areas with varying architecture it would feel more 'real' and natural.

For instance there's a lot of empty, undeveloped land just North of 'downtown' Gilbert, at approximately Gilbert Rd and the Western Canal (on both North and South sides of the canal). If that could be rezoned for more of a medium density (as part of a downtown overlay) and rezoned with TND/TOD principals it would be great. There plenty of suburban style retail just north at Guadalupe Rd, allowing the developer(s) to just cram as many residences into those parcels as possible and of course arranging them in a walkable manner.

I also feel like the Laveen area is ripe for this sort of development. Hopefully in the next general plan that area can be rezoned so that as it grows it grows a bit more dense and in a walkable fashion. Of course at first blush people in that area will freak out about density, but if it can be properly explained that more density means more preserved open space and that the rural character of the area could be preserved to a greater degree, it might work. If developers could build in the TND style at a higher density perhaps they'd even be able to integrate large community farms and gardens into their developments.

With that in mind, Im going to end this (insanely) long post because I'm worried I might be coming up against a character limit. I went to Agrotopia in Gilbert recently, which is a TND with a farming 'theme',sort of like what Im idealizing for Laveen. Ill post some pictures in my next post--HX_Guy I hope you don't think thats hijacking your thread, I figure it goes with the overall thread theme of these sorts of developments
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  #3  
Old Posted May 26, 2009, 11:42 AM
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HooverDam HooverDam is offline
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Agritopia pictures as promised:


Sign for the grill from the road


They did an excellent job of tree-lining even the major boulevard that borders the development. I wish we saw more landscaping like this downtown if grass is too expensive/water intensive for the planter strips. The flower strips look great and would look even better if a few agaves, barrel cacti or century plants were added to fill in the dirt gaps.


For all the talk of walkability, it seemed most people drove to the grill (though that is in part due to the development not being at full build out, most of the homes are far from the grill).



More of the grill


This self serve farm stand had goods for sale that were grown on site




The coffee shop


Thats right, they have a Vespa service place


The parking spots near the retail were made of a permeable paver which was great to see (though the drivable part is the traditional asphalt)


This small (actually old) building is the Agritopia offices


nice arches abounded in the retail area









parts of the still functioning farm operation


In the distance past the undeveloped section you can see a typical strip mall




Homes in the distance, you only see garage fronts because these are the 'backs' of homes. The next phase will have other homes facing their garages towards these ones.


Some of the alleys had small areas for visitor parking (check out that sweet Vibe!)


Nothing says walkable urbanism like a Hummer!


The largest surface lot in the development served the private Christian school


The rather ugly school. The fact that it was a private religious school added to the Stepford feeling of the place.


But it had a nice field with built in bleachers


The town clubhouse had meeting rooms inside (a bday party was going on) and a pool behind it, as well as tennis courts that border the schools ballfield and create a nice recreation area.





Agritopia does a poor job of terminating views with major buildings or interesting visual resting points. Tsk tsk, messing up one of the main tenants of TND.



This large linear park backs up to the 202 and does a good job of buffering the residents


This main street with the round about didn't have on street parking, but most streets did







Many of the smaller houses forego yards all together and are built around a communal green space. The garages are built into the back of the homes (like seen above)






Another popular design configuration was homes backing up to large linear park spaces. Most of these homes had garages or carports on their sides set far back from the street



Like that!









Various housing types abound


A lot of the houses like this one had parking on the side and a granny flat style in the back. This made for a very small backyard (more of a courtyard really) though it doesn't much matter since it backs up to open space.

Also those white fences you see everywhere are fucking plastic, I tried leaning on one and almost broke it!

Agritopia does a lot of stuff well, and is much better than most sprawl. However it does a poor job with retail (there's only the farm stand, coffee shop and grill), there's no office space, some of the streets are too curvilinear & they don't end with nice views. Then there's my typical complaints against the fake architecture and the silly theme, even though it is indeed a working farm, the 'topia' part of the name is eye roll worthy. The location while far flung to me isn't nearly as bad as Verrado.

I give it:


Two Andres Duanys (out of a possible 5)!

EDIT: VV Oh many of them do have yards that I would say are the same size as most homes being built in suburban Phoenix nowadays, that just wasn't too interesting for me to photograph-- plus people's back yards are private and I didn't want to snoop too much. Now the yards aren't like what you'd see in say Arcadia, but yards have been getting smaller and smaller in the Valley for 15 years or so it seems to me, at least Agritopia augments that with well planned common space.

Last edited by HooverDam; May 26, 2009 at 2:55 PM.
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  #4  
Old Posted May 26, 2009, 2:42 PM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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^ Fascinating.

I don't like the overall concept, though, not enough privacy. If you had dogs, where would they run? I want a fenced yard if I'm going to own a single-family home, period.

--don
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  #5  
Old Posted May 26, 2009, 4:59 PM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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Agritopia is a fucked up version of a garden style apartment complex as far as I'm concerned.

I'd be living in Verrado right now if it weren't so far away. I almost bought an Ashton Woods home there a couple of years ago with a rear garage it was the Greenbrier? model I think.
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  #6  
Old Posted May 26, 2009, 10:35 PM
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HooverDam HooverDam is offline
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^Huh? Agritopia is more or less exactly the same as Verrado except its a bit smaller, doen't have quite as much retail and has a farm in the middle. In what way does that make it anything like apartments? In fact Agritopia has only single family homes presently whereas Verrado has lofts, so Id assume its more apartment like if anything.
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  #7  
Old Posted May 27, 2009, 1:27 AM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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because agritopia has a lot of homes that don't even front streets. They pour out into parks like apartments.
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