Canadian Foreign Policy & Affairs II

[Xelebes]

This is a continuation of the previous thread. Please proceed.

[acottawa]

DND finally admitted the Israelis likely didn’t destroy the hospital.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canad...ital-1.7004384

[whatnext]

In case anyone needed a reminder of the atrocities that came from those operating out of Gaza, this is from the BBC two days ago:

Israeli community frozen as Hamas atrocities continue to emerge
Published 2 days ago
By Lucy Williamson in Nir Oz, Israel
BBC News

They are still finding bodies in the neighbourhoods near Gaza.

Warning: Some readers may find details in this article distressing.

Recovery teams on Wednesday pulled a woman's body from the rubble in Kibbutz Be'eri. She was naked, her feet bound with metal wire.

One of the team said the bodies of more than 20 children had been found nearby, tied together and burned.

Even experienced workers are struggling: deaths like this are enough to break the living....

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67165128

[casper]

Originally Posted by acottawa

DND finally admitted the Israelis likely didn’t destroy the hospital.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canad...ital-1.7004384

Canada at very senior levels is playing a larger diplomatic role than I would have expected relative to past conflicts. Perhaps, just never noticed it.

Melanie Joly, the Canadian foreign affairs minister has been in Israel, Jordan, and Egypt. International Development Minister Ahmed Hussen is in Egypt. Canadian military intelligence are independently assessment of rocket attacks.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by acottawa

DND finally admitted the Israelis likely didn’t destroy the hospital.

When making errors you can see if there is bias in terms of the direction and how the correction is handled. Many media outlets and commentators sure took that fake news story and ran with it.

Mélanie Joly's initial response:

Bombing a hospital is an unthinkable act, and there is no doubt that doing so is absolutely illegal.

In context at the time this could only reasonably have been intended as a condemnation of Israel, and the whole tweet is speculative and misleading.

More recently she retweeted Bill Blair:

We are deeply saddened by the loss of life caused by the explosion at Al Ahli Arab hospital in Gaza on Oct. 17.

In order to determine what happened, the Prime Minister asked me to task the @CanadianForces with preparing an independent analysis. Today I am releasing its findings.

I wonder if she will ever post a conclusion describing the confirmed events and who was responsible or if this is as pointed as it will get. This Bill Blair post as it stands reminds me of the UN statements about how sad it is that people in Ukraine are dying for mysterious reasons (tsunami? earthquake?).

[whatnext]

How disgusting, we've imported our very own brownshirts to target and harass Jewish-owned businesses in Toronto:

https://twitter.com/AntisemitismCA/s...70414616887788

[casper]

Originally Posted by someone123

When making errors you can see if there is bias in terms of the direction and how the correction is handled. Many media outlets and commentators sure took that fake news story and ran with it.

Mélanie Joly's initial response:



In context at the time this could only reasonably have been intended as a condemnation of Israel, and the whole tweet is speculative and misleading.

More recently she retweeted Bill Blair:



I wonder if she will ever post a conclusion describing the confirmed events and who was responsible or if this is as pointed as it will get. This Bill Blair post as it stands reminds me of the UN statements about how sad it is that people in Ukraine are dying for mysterious reasons (tsunami? earthquake?).

I think your reading more into her position that was stated.

Hours earlier Trudeau said:

“Civilian life must always be protected and international and humanitarian law must always be respected. We are working closely with allies to determine exactly what happened,”

"Canada is taking the necessary steps to look at everything before drawing conclusions on what happened."

I think she was echoing the government position, basically we don't have all the details yet to point fingers.

[savevp]

Originally Posted by casper

I think your reading more into her position that was stated.

Hours earlier Trudeau said:

“Civilian life must always be protected and international and humanitarian law must always be respected. We are working closely with allies to determine exactly what happened,”

"Canada is taking the necessary steps to look at everything before drawing conclusions on what happened."

I think she was echoing the government position, basically we don't have all the details yet to point fingers.

"Bombing a hospital is an unthinkable act, and there is no doubt that doing so is absolutely illegal."

That was the tweet in its entirety. Seems pretty clear the accusation is that the hospital was bombed, which was unconfirmed at the time, and subsequently all but proven false.

[casper]

Originally Posted by savevp

"Bombing a hospital is an unthinkable act, and there is no doubt that doing so is absolutely illegal."

That was the tweet in its entirety. Seems pretty clear the accusation is that the hospital was bombed, which was unconfirmed at the time, and subsequently all but proven false.

Well it was a hospital.

I thought she was referring to an incoming object that made a "kaboom" sound, and killed many people. Does that not qualify as a "bombing"?

She had been very clear that Canada's position is Israel has a right to defend itself with due consideration for international law. Interpreting the Canadian position as somehow anti-Israel is a stretch.

[Wigs]

Channel 4 (UK) shows the horrors of War, even going into one of the unimaginably terrorized kibbutzes. They are doing some of the best reporting on this War.
**Caution**: Not for the faint of heart

report uploaded 2 hours ago
• Video Link

[someone123]

Originally Posted by casper

She had been very clear that Canada's position is Israel has a right to defend itself with due consideration for international law. Interpreting the Canadian position as somehow anti-Israel is a stretch.

On the one hand Canada nominally supports Israel and on the other hand the foreign affairs minister jumps to strongly insinuating that they're committing war crimes before the facts are confirmed.

[Hecate]

It’s absolutely pathetic that it has taken Canada this long to recognize that this hospital incident was Hamas. The initial reaction from the government was very much one of blame. Trudeau outright said the attack was illegal and a war crime. I don’t recall him saying “we ummm will errrr umm wait ummm until we ummm have more ummm information” before making those comments. To me it seems more like pandering to a particular demographic. If they are seen as too critical of Palestine then it will backfire on them at election time with the Muslim voters. Could also be they are worried it could escalate protests and fuel more antisemitism if they condemn those Palestinians, somehow I don’t think the liberals care too much about the Jews.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by someone123

On the one hand Canada nominally supports Israel and on the other hand the foreign affairs minister jumps to strongly insinuating that they're committing war crimes before the facts are confirmed.

They already are committing war crimes. The blockage of the necessities of life {ie water, food, medical supplies} is against the UN Charter and is considered a war crime. Now some aid is trickling thru but this is nearly 2 weeks after the fact and even now the Israelis are not guaranteeing that the flow will continue. From what I have heard on the CTV, it is claimed that Gaza will have to have 100 such transport trucks arrive EVERYDAY in order to provide even the basics of survival for the 2.5 million Gazans.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by someone123

On the one hand Canada nominally supports Israel and on the other hand the foreign affairs minister jumps to strongly insinuating that they're committing war crimes before the facts are confirmed.

At what point do we get to start referring to her as Diplomacy Barbie?

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

They already are committing war crimes. The blockage of the necessities of life {ie water, food, medical supplies} is against the UN Charter and is considered a war crime. Now some aid is trickling thru but this is nearly 2 weeks after the fact and even now the Israelis are not guaranteeing that the flow will continue. From what I have heard on the CTV, it is claimed that Gaza will have to have 100 such transport trucks arrive EVERYDAY in order to provide even the basics of survival for the 2.5 million Gazans.

Gaza typically receives 350-400 trucks a day in better times. It's a largely urban area of 2.3 million people living in an area the size of the city of Detroit.

The Irishman spokesperson from the World Heath Organization said "we don't need 20 trucks we need closer to 2000" to arrive

[casper]

Originally Posted by Hecate

It’s absolutely pathetic that it has taken Canada this long to recognize that this hospital incident was Hamas. The initial reaction from the government was very much one of blame. Trudeau outright said the attack was illegal and a war crime. I don’t recall him saying “we ummm will errrr umm wait ummm until we ummm have more ummm information” before making those comments.

Actually what he said was:

“Civilian life must always be protected and international and humanitarian law must always be respected. We are working closely with allies to determine exactly what happened,”

"Canada is taking the necessary steps to look at everything before drawing conclusions on what happened."

Originally Posted by Hecate

To me it seems more like pandering to a particular demographic. If they are seen as too critical of Palestine then it will backfire on them at election time with the Muslim voters. Could also be they are worried it could escalate protests and fuel more antisemitism if they condemn those Palestinians, somehow I don’t think the liberals care too much about the Jews.

Originally Posted by someone123

On the one hand Canada nominally supports Israel and on the other hand the foreign affairs minister jumps to strongly insinuating that they're committing war crimes before the facts are confirmed.

Israel is committing war crimes, that is clear. I think Canada is trying to be even-handed and diplomatic.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by whatnext

How disgusting, we've imported our very own brownshirts to target and harass Jewish-owned businesses in Toronto:

https://twitter.com/AntisemitismCA/s...70414616887788

The pro-Palestine marches increasingly aren't about showing support and concern for Gaza, but are quickly descending into antisemitic intimidation. As they grow larger and larger this is starting to get concerning.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The pro-Palestine marches increasingly aren't about showing support and concern for Gaza, but are quickly descending into antisemitic intimidation. As they grow larger and larger this is starting to get concerning.

The Ottawa march despite rain and cold was very well attended. I walked through and it was a mix of various Arabs and Muslims, what I assume are general peaceniks and actually a few Jews (in Kippah or even orthodox garb) as well.

Protests don't always indicate broader political support but the general rule is you have a lot of other people who agree who don't want to go protest.

Trudeau despite what I would say was a pretty balanced (which in the North American context means pro Palestinian) approach was shouted down at a mosque. I understand there are a lot of voices in caucus demanding Canada support the Palestinians. Presumably they are hearing from constituents. As I said before we do have 5X more Muslims than Jews in this country. The white male establishment that gets more of their news from the US is shocked at the Trudeau response to this but this is not the Canada of 2001.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The pro-Palestine marches increasingly aren't about showing support and concern for Gaza, but are quickly descending into antisemitic intimidation. As they grow larger and larger this is starting to get concerning.

Well diversity is our strength. Where would we be without those folks marching to support those who harboured terrorists that had no compunction about massacring children in their homes.

And these days you always have to wonder what powers are fuelling dissent behind the scenes through misinformation.

[Acajack]

I'm not surprised at all by the Trudeau response because this is the official line of the western world order and he is a part of it, though it appears to be less and less sustainable.