537 King Street East | 26.9 m | 6 fl | Proposed

[TheHonestMaple]

To go before the DRP on December 9, 2021.

Submission 537 King St E (PDF, 8 MB)
Staff Summary 537 King St E (PDF, 185 KB)
Applicant Summary 537 King St E (PDF, 234 KB)

[LikeHamilton]

Boy I like this. Big upgrade for the area.

[TheRitsman]

This looks great, but I wonder how much is spandrel glass and how much will be actual window. Regardless it will look great for the area. Of course, again really unfortunate that there's no retail along this section. With LRT coming not having commercial makes no sense.

It's also strange and unfortunate that the proposal doesn't incorporate the recently heritage designated Rebel' Rock building.

This does show what having LRT will do though, and what will happen to structures that were demolished for LRT will become. Again without LRT this kind of kills this section a bit, and I'd be surprised if staff doesn't ouch for commercial on the first floor.

[TheHonestMaple]

The one thing I would change is the multi coloured panels. I always thought that looked ugly as hell when implemented in the real world. A dark blue, like the one on Main Street West would be ideal.

[Innsertnamehere]

Grass along king st? No. Convert the townhouses to retail along king and I am happy. Maybe add 2 floors as well.

[TheHonestMaple]

Remember the volume of traffic down King will be significantly reduced with the introduction of the LRT. It won't be a freeway running through the city anymore. It will be a much more walkable street. I think the row of planters is fair. Similar to what we see in KW.

[TheRitsman]

I think the larger issue isn't the grass, it's the suburban style first floor with grass and no retail.

I do like the balcony colour though. Reminds me of this build in Ottawa: 987 Wellington St. W
https://maps.app.goo.gl/DJoHSEzdgQw8vmV76

Or this one in Halifax:

2276 Gottingen St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/45HL3bPssm8f2XE78

[TheHonestMaple]

This is being designed by KNYMH Architects. It will likely end up looking like a red version of Aquablue in Grimsby.



The landscaping is being done by Adesso Design Inc on Locke Street. They have some pictures of other projects they've done here.

[Innsertnamehere]

you can see the landscape plan here. there are elevated townhouse units proposed along King St E with sodded landscape areas and planting areas between the building and the street.



While I like the street trees, I don't like the raised townhouses. It should be retail instead. I especially don't like the sod.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

It's also strange and unfortunate that the proposal doesn't incorporate the recently heritage designated Rebel' Rock building.

It is. Unless it has some structural issues that don't make it worth saving?

If not, I wonder if the developer is going to be asked to modify their plans to avoid knocking it down. Trade a shorter building width for another floor or two up top.

[TheRitsman]

I suspect the sod will be replaced with sidewalk expansion as that's owned by the city, and they won't want to mow a small patch like that. And the sidewalk is already narrow. As I mentioned though, I would like to see retail, at least a single or two units.

[Beedok]

I like the one end of it, but, yes, it definitely needs at least one retail unit and preserving the Rebel’s Rock building would be nice.

[onetimetoomany]

There is no shortage of vacant retail spaces nearby so I’m not fully in agreement with the need to include retail space here.

[StEC]

Originally Posted by onetimetoomany

There is no shortage of vacant retail spaces nearby so I’m not fully in agreement with the need to include retail space here.

Right now yes... you make a good point. But once the LRT is built it will be a very different story!

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by onetimetoomany

There is no shortage of vacant retail spaces nearby so I’m not fully in agreement with the need to include retail space here.

See, there are multiple issues with this line of thinking.

1) This building will likely be here for 100-150 years minimum. Will there never be a need for retail immediately adjacent to a massive rapid transit LRT project? I doubt it. In fact I'd be willing to bet there would be demand immediately for spaces that went in here.

2) Hamilton struggles with vacancy for many reasons. Lack of customers with income to buy things is one, but also the issue of quality retail space. I'm as much a fan of Mulberry, The Brain and Bread Bar on James, but those are maintained buildings. Many retail and commercial spaces in Hamilton haven't been touched in 40 years and tenant is completely responsible to bring it up to shape in most cases. Those empty retail units nearby this building at likely empty because of this reason. Until the property is sold, someone fixes it up, and actually tries to find tenants you're going to have vacancies. My partner worked for the Barton Street BIA and told me many commercial unit owners on that street don't even want tenants, or want to rent it out.

3) New units are better for certain types of needs. While a cool, brick walled hipster dentist is cool in reality, most dentists want a new build with limited effort to fix up and maintain. Old buildings come with old problems, and even one that's fixed up can be difficult to deal with. A basement bathroom is a lot more suited to a bar than a dentist or optometrist. Accessible entrances also make more sense for these and a small doctors office.

[onetimetoomany]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

See, there are multiple issues with this line of thinking.

1) This building will likely be here for 100-150 years minimum. Will there never be a need for retail immediately adjacent to a massive rapid transit LRT project? I doubt it. In fact I'd be willing to bet there would be demand immediately for spaces that went in here.

2) Hamilton struggles with vacancy for many reasons. Lack of customers with income to buy things is one, but also the issue of quality retail space. I'm as much a fan of Mulberry, The Brain and Bread Bar on James, but those are maintained buildings. Many retail and commercial spaces in Hamilton haven't been touched in 40 years and tenant is completely responsible to bring it up to shape in most cases. Those empty retail units nearby this building at likely empty because of this reason. Until the property is sold, someone fixes it up, and actually tries to find tenants you're going to have vacancies. My partner worked for the Barton Street BIA and told me many commercial unit owners on that street don't even want tenants, or want to rent it out.

3) New units are better for certain types of needs. While a cool, brick walled hipster dentist is cool in reality, most dentists want a new build with limited effort to fix up and maintain. Old buildings come with old problems, and even one that's fixed up can be difficult to deal with. A basement bathroom is a lot more suited to a bar than a dentist or optometrist. Accessible entrances also make more sense for these and a small doctors office.

A dental office to me isn't vibrant retail and if this would just end up with a dental office, pot shop, bank, etc, why bother?

Also there's a spot adjacent to this lot that's been advertised for lease for a minute now; it looks to be in better shape than 40-year-untouched properties... so not really sure that point stands.

Anyway, I live nearby and the retail scene is very behind and as you mentioned the lack of customers with disposable income to shop is a major factor. The nearby plaza has anchors such as NoFrills and Dollarama (and has vacancies btw).

[ScreamingViking]

Plus the market will expand. You'll probably see more than a few similarly scaled proposals and builds all along King between Wellington/Victoria and the Delta -- there could be a lot of people living adjacent to the LRT, and that will create demand for various types of neighbourhood retailers and services.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by onetimetoomany

A dental office to me isn't vibrant retail and if this would just end up with a dental office, pot shop, bank, etc, why bother?

Define "vibrant"

The average stuff may be mundane, but it's needed (will be needed, I mean)

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by onetimetoomany

A dental office to me isn't vibrant retail and if this would just end up with a dental office, pot shop, bank, etc, why bother?

Also there's a spot adjacent to this lot that's been advertised for lease for a minute now; it looks to be in better shape than 40-year-untouched properties... so not really sure that point stands.

Anyway, I live nearby and the retail scene is very behind and as you mentioned the lack of customers with disposable income to shop is a major factor. The nearby plaza has anchors such as NoFrills and Dollarama (and has vacancies btw).

I never suggested this needed to be vibrant. People need essential commercial and shouldn't have to drive to a dentist office downtown. I suspect if there were 3 or 4 commercial units you'd likely see a cafe or restaurant or something with 1 Jarvis and KiWi going up around the corner. KW is seeing this type of development with essentials mixed in with vibrancy. The next development next door won't be able to encourage a cafe or something if the essentials aren't met, because a doctor's office will offer more rent.

Also having a "For Lease" sign doesn't mean they are actively looking for tenants. The sign could be there to claim a loss on the property, or an old remnant. Look at the Vrancor buildings on George, they've been for lease for years now. Nothing. I asked my realtor friend and he said they have the signs but they don't actually want tenants.

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

See, there are multiple issues with this line of thinking.

1) This building will likely be here for 100-150 years minimum. Will there never be a need for retail immediately adjacent to a massive rapid transit LRT project? I doubt it. In fact I'd be willing to bet there would be demand immediately for spaces that went in here.

2) Hamilton struggles with vacancy for many reasons. Lack of customers with income to buy things is one, but also the issue of quality retail space. I'm as much a fan of Mulberry, The Brain and Bread Bar on James, but those are maintained buildings. Many retail and commercial spaces in Hamilton haven't been touched in 40 years and tenant is completely responsible to bring it up to shape in most cases. Those empty retail units nearby this building at likely empty because of this reason. Until the property is sold, someone fixes it up, and actually tries to find tenants you're going to have vacancies. My partner worked for the Barton Street BIA and told me many commercial unit owners on that street don't even want tenants, or want to rent it out.

3) New units are better for certain types of needs. While a cool, brick walled hipster dentist is cool in reality, most dentists want a new build with limited effort to fix up and maintain. Old buildings come with old problems, and even one that's fixed up can be difficult to deal with. A basement bathroom is a lot more suited to a bar than a dentist or optometrist. Accessible entrances also make more sense for these and a small doctors office.

I think that your second point is probably the strongest and most accurate reason for the vacant store fronts.

There is simply a complete lack of high earning residents in downtown Hamilton, especially around the Gore Park area. That is about to very much change. But for now, it is what is it. Affordable housing, and rent control leads to individuals that have little expendable income. I've been saying it over and over again, what this city needs is high end condos with a high end price tag if we ever want to see true revitalization of the core. Thankfully, that appears to be on the horizon - maybe in 5 years.