Federal Government & Politics II

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by acottawa

How dare people talk about the record of the governing party seeking re-election.

Haha… you can talk about it all you want, but I reserve the right to be sick and tired of all the bullshit surrounding it.

Masks vs no masks, vaccines vs no vaccines, restrictions vs no restrictions, convoy good vs convoy bad, government involvement vs libertarianism, ad nauseam…. There’s a few years out of my life that I’ll never get back, so excuse me if I’ve had enough. Of course you are free to relive it all over again if you wish.

IMHO, what’s to debate about with the current government? They’re already done, it’s just a matter of time now. Covid was sketchy for every country, and some did better than others, but JT’s Libs did enough damage in other ways that the covid response seems like a wash at this point. Anti vaxxers are not going to change, doesn’t matter what info is available, there will always be some guy with a youtube channel that knows more than everybody else, and will attract a group of followers who want to believe what he’s selling. Then there will be millions of nuances in between that you could devote an entire forum to, if that’s what turns you on.

For me, I’ve had enough, and will exercise my freedoms to bitch about the conversation and ultimately just skip over it until something more interesting comes up.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Indeed. To me it ranks with "the dog ate my homework" as an excuse.

Or "I don't want to get security clearance".

[casper]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Not the main point, but why would one distinguish between a child not competent and and adult not competent?

I think the key difference is a minor has parents who in principle have both a legal and moral responsibility to look after and make decisions in the best interest of their children.

That said, once kids have some degree of cognitive ability, generally speaking doctors like to turn to the kids to make decisions. While generally I agree with that there are some limits.

When the state steps in and starts to make decisions on medical treatment it is a very complex situation that requires come check and balances. Especially when the decision of the state is in disagreement with the wishes of the individual.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes the system is broken and will shatter when PP arrives. You can't have 20 kids trying to steer a completely hostile bureacracy. DMs and ADMS need to become political appointees even if many are still career civil servants. DMs are already quasi political so making it official and adding 1/2 of ADMs as political appointees could eliminate a lot of the dysfunction. I don't know if there is a better parliamentary model and the US over politicization certainly has it's own issues but our current model is very broken and this is one of several examples recently.

Unless we find something to do with political appointees out of office (the role think tanks and lobbyists play in Washington) I don’t think that would work any better.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Hybrid doesn't mean zero time in the office. And like I said earlier anybody with classified work was always going in. Their aides were also getting briefed and could easily convey something like, "Your minister needs to get in here to see this.". Zero chance somebody can go a year without a briefing at that level, unless they genuinely didn't want that briefing.

The worker bees in the SCIF may have been going to the office regularly, but in most of the government the DGs, ADMs, DMs, staffers, chiefs of staff, Ministers, etc. were not. It is possible people were keeping stuff from the Minister, but it was also possible things were being locket in cabinets and forgotten about because nobody knew when the Chief of Staff or whoever had to review it would actually show up.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Unless we find something to do with political appointees out of office (the role think tanks and lobbyists play in Washington) I don’t think that would work any better.

This is a good point but I think we do have provincial positions and universities to some extent but also a lot of current sycophants could simply become partisan. DMs do whatever their political masters want as they are directly appointed. Making lower level officials also beholden would go an along way. Grabbing private sector people would also be an option. We have ambassadors with no experience in govt for example.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This is a good point but I think we do have provincial positions and universities to some extent but also a lot of current sycophants could simply become partisan. DMs do whatever their political masters want as they are directly appointed. Making lower level officials also beholden would go an along way. Grabbing private sector people would also be an option. We have ambassadors with no experience in govt for example.

Some of whom have been successful, others not so much.

[whatnext]

Looks like all is not rosy in the Liberal caucus:

Trade minister says she is ‘disappointed’ by report of caucus revolt to oust Trudeau
MIA RABSON AND NOJOUD AL MALLEES
OTTAWA
THE CANADIAN PRESS
PUBLISHED YESTERDAY

A growing number of Liberal MPs are banding together to convince Prime Minister Justin Trudeau it’s time to step down, although he appears to retain support from his cabinet.

Trade Minister Mary Ng said Friday she had full confidence in Trudeau as word began to spread about a growing revolt. Ng was travelling back to Canada with Trudeau from Laos, where they were attending a summit of southeast Asian countries.

When their plane landed in Hawaii for a refuelling stop, Ng said she turned on her phone and saw multiple media reports about efforts by some of her Liberal colleagues in media outlets such as CBC News and The Toronto Star.….

….Details about the strategy and breadth of the attempt to push him to resign remains unclear, though one MP told The Canadian Press the number of MPs involved is not insignificant and that unlike previous rumours of a revolt, this one is real……

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...cus-revolt-to/

[kwoldtimer]

Will be interesting to see how many MPs sign(ed) the letter. I've seen anything from twenty to "dozens" being specualted on.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Will be interesting to see how many MPs sign(ed) the letter. I've seen anything from twenty to "dozens" being specualted on.

It is the eve of the Ides of March. The knives have been purchased but have not yet been brandished in a threatening manner.

et tu Brute????

[someone123]

I was curious if there was a modern precedent for a long-running government to pick a new leader and stick around, and there was. Multiple terms of Lester B. Pearson followed by multiple terms of PET.

[casper]

Originally Posted by someone123

I was curious if there was a modern precedent for a long-running government to pick a new leader and stick around, and there was. Multiple terms of Lester B. Pearson followed by multiple terms of PET.

I think it comes down to how likeable and palatable the Conservatives are. Much of the population has jumped ship to the conservatives. Time will tell if that is strong support of the conservative plan and leadership or just hatred of JT.

A new Liberal leader will hopefully win some of that back.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by casper

I think it comes down to how likeable and palatable the Conservatives are. Much of the population has jumped ship to the conservatives. Time will tell if that is strong support of the conservative plan and leadership or just hatred of JT.

A new Liberal leader will hopefully win some of that back.

Although "some" is not likely to be enough. One doesn't need to "hate" JT - the government is just very spent, which is not a huge surprise after two terms.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by casper

I think it comes down to how likeable and palatable the Conservatives are. Much of the population has jumped ship to the conservatives. Time will tell if that is strong support of the conservative plan and leadership or just hatred of JT.

A new Liberal leader will hopefully win some of that back.

This seems impossible. And who is this mythical savior. I guess Wynne, who wasn't exacltly JFK charisma wise ended up turning things around that was mostly Conservatives imploding. PP is certainly capable of the kind of over-confidence that precipated that but a lot of things would have to align. Regardless the clock seems to have run out on that. Without any runway for a new budget how can a new leader create a new identity. Perhaps someone Trudeau fired could pull it off. Morneau is damaged but maybe Wilson-Raybould? Obviously Liberals wouldn't want a clear traitor as their leader but they are Liberals so will do anything to survive.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by casper

I think it comes down to how likeable and palatable the Conservatives are. Much of the population has jumped ship to the conservatives. Time will tell if that is strong support of the conservative plan and leadership or just hatred of JT.

A new Liberal leader will hopefully win some of that back.

The problem is the Liberal policies are deeply unpopular, regardless of who the leader is. I guess it is possible a new leader might renounce the entire Liberal playbook of the last 5 years, but that is a super awkward strategy that depends on believing the cabinet and caucus had these policies forced on them and now that the cult leader is gone they are no longer interested in drinking the Kool Aid.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The problem is the Liberal policies are deeply unpopular, regardless of who the leader is. I guess it is possible a new leader might renounce the entire Liberal playbook of the last 5 years, but that is a super awkward strategy that depends on believing the cabinet and caucus had these policies forced on them and now that the cult leader is gone they are no longer interested in drinking the Kool Aid.

I don't think this is really true. Certainly 33% are tired of the woke virute signalling, over-regulation and spending on climate change, and general high spending but that's basically the 2019 and 2021 elections. Most of the rest of the 7-9% now in PP's corner are low information voters who don't like the current economic situation. The conservatives have made the partially true claim that is on said policies. If a new leader grants that I agree it is a pretty difficult sell. Maybe someone popular outside the party could pull that off but I can't think of anyone in Canada that could. Meanwhile half the Liberal voters all the NDP voters and probably a lot of Bloc voters think the problem is they haven't regulated a enough and given out enough cash to counteract inflation. If Singh and Trudeau both fell on their swords a unified party with a new leader could probably win or at least hold the Conservatives to minority as disastous as that might be. Point being we haven't shifted as a country to wanting strongly conservative policies so when the cuts come everyone will be crying foul.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I don't think this is really true. Certainly 33% are tired of the woke virute signalling, over-regulation and spending on climate change, and general high spending but that's basically the 2019 and 2021 elections. Most of the rest of the 7-9% now in PP's corner are low information voters who don't like the current economic situation. The conservatives have made the partially true claim that is on said policies. If a new leader grants that I agree it is a pretty difficult sell. Maybe someone popular outside the party could pull that off but I can't think of anyone in Canada that could. Meanwhile half the Liberal voters all the NDP voters and probably a lot of Bloc voters think the problem is they haven't regulated a enough and given out enough cash to counteract inflation. If Singh and Trudeau both fell on their swords a unified party with a new leader could probably win or at least hold the Conservatives to minority as disastous as that might be. Point being we haven't shifted as a country to wanting strongly conservative policies so when the cuts come everyone will be crying foul.

It seems completely implausible that the Liberals and NDP can organize a merger in less than a year. This isn’t like the PC/Reform that had broken up only a decade earlier, the Liberals and NDP have never been the same party.

The NDP is not going to get back its blue collar support by merging and the Liberals are not going to gain back their suburban support by merging. The five major policies of the Liberals (deficit financing, massive increase in immigration, niche social programs that don’t benefit many people, virtue signalling and consumer facing carbon taxes) are all increasingly unpopular and not solved by a new leader or a merger.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It seems completely implausible that the Liberals and NDP can organize a merger in less than a year. This isn’t like the PC/Reform that had broken up only a decade earlier, the Liberals and NDP have never been the same party.

The NDP is not going to get back its blue collar support by merging and the Liberals are not going to gain back their suburban support by merging. The five major policies of the Liberals (deficit financing, massive increase in immigration, niche social programs that don’t benefit many people, virtue signalling and consumer facing carbon taxes) are all increasingly unpopular and not solved by a new leader or a merger.

An NDP/Liberal merger would be a zero sum game.

This would be a signal to "blue" Liberals that the centrist party of their youth is truly gone, and, they might have to consider a new home, possibly even the Conservative Party. This would actually be a good thing, as the arrival of a few hundred thousand centrist supporters might help to dilute the influence of the reformist wing of the party.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It seems completely implausible that the Liberals and NDP can organize a merger in less than a year. This isn’t like the PC/Reform that had broken up only a decade earlier, the Liberals and NDP have never been the same party.

The NDP is not going to get back its blue collar support by merging and the Liberals are not going to gain back their suburban support by merging. The five major policies of the Liberals (deficit financing, massive increase in immigration, niche social programs that don’t benefit many people, virtue signalling and consumer facing carbon taxes) are all increasingly unpopular and not solved by a new leader or a merger.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

An NDP/Liberal merger would be a zero sum game.

This would be a signal to "blue" Liberals that the centrist party of their youth is truly gone, and, they might have to consider a new home, possibly even the Conservative Party. This would actually be a good thing, as the arrival of a few hundred thousand centrist supporters might help to dilute the influence of the reformist wing of the party.

For sure a merger would be a huge lift and hail mary. If the NDP had a remotely plausible leader the Libs would already be dead in the water outside of Quebec (they are nearly so anyway)aly so. But there are examples of parties moving quickly when they want to. At this point outside of Quebec the only survivors are in cities where a merger would give them a very big leg up.

As for signal to blue Liberals. Most of us left in 2019 and certainly all are gone now. We don't seem to have diluted the party though. No actual MPs seem to have crossed. Even Housefather who basically committed political suicide not doing so as the Libs became pro Hamas is still a Liberal MP.

[ssiguy]

Wht surprises me bout this petition is tht it hs tken so long. {letter before "B" isn't working}.

The Tory support is solid with 40 to 42% for over yer. 90 {min} Libs r bout to get the pink slip so why the mutiny is not bigger & tken so long is beyond me.