Federal Government & Politics II - Page 641

WarrenC12 · #**12801** Posted **Today, 5:23 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by acottawa

Canada had 92,000 excess deaths during the pandemic, which dwarfs the number of alleged lives saved by all the lockdowns, hiding children at home, letting seniors spend the last years of their lives alone and miserable, ruining the economy, creating a generation of children with severe mental health issues, etc.

How many did Sweden have?

Mandates to stay at home were purely Provincial. Blame your premier.

Acajack · #**12802** Posted **Today, 5:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Ugh... why must we do this? Are you really onside or is it just a sunk cost at this point, an artifact of your overall alignment?

A Canadian COVID policy lover, of all things. Well, let's go I guess.

Your error is twofold. One, you should be looking at excess deaths for this period due to differences in diagnostics, reporting, all sorts of things. Two, you assume that what you perceive as high Swedish COVID deaths are a consequence of the lack of mask mandates, and move these unfortunate people from the gallows into a "saved by Canada" anteroom you have built in your mind.

What we all know here is that Sweden had an absolutely enormous initial wave of COVID that was unlike anything Canada saw and occured in the late winter and spring of 2020. It came about due to Stockholm county's spring break coinciding with the enormous wave of infection in Northern Italy, which was the epicentre of the disease at that time, when it was very early and very potent.

The early "Swedish" wave was in fact a Stockholm phenomenon, and its contribution to the numbers has to do with a specific travel phenomenon and not national prophylactic measures. Malmo, for instance, was seeing numbers in line with Copenhagen across the border.

In March-April 2020, Sweden was no. 3 in COVID infections per capita in the world.

This was before the tomfoolery seen in Canada with masks and plexiglass and "papers, please" . By the time Canada had legislated masks on planes (SAS did that too), the wave was in decline. By June, as these mandates started to spread in Canada, the worst was over for good.

Where Sweden faltered was in its care homes, a truly bad outcome very much like New York and to a lesser extent parts of Quebec, but nothing to do with the metric on which I am comparing the two countries' responses.

There is legitimate moral anger and regret over the care homes here. There is none over your silly "saved by Canada" construction, because nobody thinks that Canadian-style measures would have done anything except distort the society, hamper education and create ugly legal precedents.

It is amazing to me that you would assume that Swedes were just somehow willing to tolerate a massacre, and to send their loved ones into their graves when a crude system of curfews, plexiglass dividers, iPad school and all the rest would have saved them.

That your obedience would force you into such a damning critique of a not-too-dissimilar people.

But you don't think this. Not really. You just know two things: 1) the protesters there were outgroup from your North American centre-left perspective (here, they were mainly old-school socialists), and 2) your country became a "papers, please" place in the 21st century, and no one would want to admit they did that for nothing.

I was in Toronto and Halifax in 2022 and they looked like shit. My niece and nephew thought "school" was a tablet app for two years.

Canada fucked up in those years and Sweden did better. I can't believe this is contested.

Ouf. Now do Florida.

kool maudit · #**12803** Posted **Today, 5:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ouf. Now do Florida.

I have no idea what went on in Florida.

Sweden wasn't without accomodations, particularly for remote work, which was very widely adopted early. It wasn't libertarian here. Maybe it was there. But something Anders Tegnell said very early on was that "we must remember that normalcy has a value, too". Most of Canada did not remember that.

WarrenC12 · #**12804** Posted **Today, 5:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Canada fucked up in those years and Sweden did better. I can't believe this is contested.

Are you going to put any numbers to this word salad, or just spout your opinion. Feel free to quote the excess deaths per capita if that's your measuring stick.

Mandates and lockdowns were all Provincial, so your "Canada fucked up" mantra is again, wrong.

Does Sweden have "legitimate moral anger and regret" over the care home issue, or

theman23 · #**12805** Posted **Today, 5:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I have no idea what went on in Florida.

Sweden wasn't without accomodations, particularly for remote work, which was very widely adopted early. It wasn't libertarian here. Maybe it was there. But something Anders Tegnell said very early on was that "we must remember that normalcy has a value, too". Most of Canada did not remember that.

With the benefit of hindsight, I think your take is probably the right one. I looked up the excess death data from Sweden and Canada, and the per capita numbers seem to be exactly the same.

I think Moncton's point about this being a novel situation is probably right too. In the beginning, there was a lot of hesitancy to do anything for fear of overreacting, which then turned into an inertia that prevented the lifting of restrictions. The initial delayed response of a few weeks is more understandable, but at the end we probably had restrictions in place for 6-12 months longer than we should have had despite strong evidence that they weren't necessary. By then the issue had been exploited for political gain (see the unnecessary 2021 election) and devolved into a mostly political issue.

WarrenC12 · #**12806** Posted **Today, 5:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by theman23

I think Moncton's point about this being a novel situation is probably right too. In the beginning, there was a lot of hesitancy to do anything for fear of overreacting, which then turned into an inertia that prevented the lifting of restrictions. The initial delayed response is more understandable, but at the end we probably had restrictions in place for 6-12 months longer than we should have had despite strong evidence that they weren't necessary. By then the issue had been exploited for political gain (see the 2021 election) and devolved into a mostly political issue.

Seems like an Ontario problem.

MolsonExport · #**12807** Posted **Today, 5:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

One thing that escapes people is that COVID (in the early days) was completely novel. The only thing public health officials knew is that it was a highly transmissible virus producing severe symptoms, and that we were dealing with a fast moving pandemic. The initial response to completely shut down international travel and institute strict quarantine conditions here in Canada was absolutely the right thing to do.

Once established, it made sense to keep the shutdown to prevent the health care system and hospitals from being overwhelmed. We had limited staff and limited respirators and no effective treatment, so, again this was absolutely the right thing to do.

As soon as it was discovered that an effective vaccine could be deployed within six months or so, it made sense to keep the restrictions in place until herd immunity could be established. Again, the right thing to do.

Once the vaccine was widely given to the population, this is when restrictions could have been lifted, but, there was a lot of foot dragging by the authorities. This is I think where things started to go off the rails, and led to consequences like the KKKonvoy movement.

It is great to have your well-informed opinion to remind everyone of these facts.

theman23 · #**12808** Posted **Today, 5:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Seems like an Ontario problem.

I don't know, I didn't live in Ontario and didn't pay that close attention to it.
We probably should have had land border restrictions with the USA lifted by 2021, but for some reason we thought we could keep out a virus that was already endemic.

MolsonExport · #**12809** Posted **Today, 6:00 PM**

Table of total cases, deaths, and death rates by country

COVID-19 pandemic cases and mortality by country

Country Deaths / million Deaths Cases
World 884 7,067,247 776,385,727
Peru 6,601 220,975 4,526,977
Bulgaria 5,672 38,721 1,334,300
North Macedonia 5,423 9,981 351,819
Bosnia and Herzegovina 5,117 16,399 403,830
Hungary 5,066 49,068 2,232,924
Croatia 4,802 18,765 1,337,770
Slovenia 4,590 9,710 1,358,356
Georgia 4,519 17,150 1,863,615
Montenegro 4,317 2,654 251,280
Czech Republic 4,080 43,554 4,777,059
Moldova 4,037 12,274 649,505
Latvia 3,973 7,475 977,765
Slovakia 3,879 21,231 1,879,882
Greece 3,793 39,497 5,705,992
San Marino 3,693 126 25,292
Romania 3,594 68,899 3,565,107
United States 3,517 1,201,488 103,436,829
Lithuania 3,487 9,824 1,388,526
United Kingdom 3,404 232,112 24,992,089
Brazil 3,338 702,116 37,511,921
Italy 3,313 197,542 26,826,486
Chile 3,297 64,482 5,402,165
Martinique 3,159 1,104 230,354
Poland 3,147 120,816 6,727,722
Armenia 3,046 8,777 452,273
Gibraltar 3,002 113 20,550
Belgium 2,949 34,339 4,881,753
Paraguay 2,940 19,880 735,759
Trinidad and Tobago 2,934 4,390 191,496
Argentina 2,877 130,678 10,102,944
European Union 2,817 1,264,123 186,098,139
Portugal 2,781 28,977 5,668,055
Russia 2,770 403,352 24,424,123
Colombia 2,758 142,727 6,394,022
Aruba 2,708 292 44,224
Ukraine 2,677 109,923 5,540,420
Serbia 2,658 18,057 2,583,470
Guadeloupe 2,653 1,021 203,235
Sweden 2,644 27,734 2,761,334
France 2,615 168,091 39,016,278
Mexico 2,602 334,724 7,622,076
Spain 2,547 121,852 13,980,340
Bermuda 2,547 165 18,860
Guam 2,536 419 52,287
Austria 2,485 22,534 6,082,582
Tunisia 2,427 29,423 1,153,361
French Polynesia 2,318 650 79,448
Saint Lucia 2,293 410 30,287
Uruguay 2,265 7,682 1,041,472
Liechtenstein 2,262 89 21,594
Suriname 2,256 1,406 82,503
Estonia 2,220 2,998 610,471
Sint Maarten 2,182 92 11,051
Bahamas 2,135 849 39,127
Barbados 2,100 593 108,815
Germany 2,080 174,979 38,437,756
Finland 2,058 11,466 1,499,712
Grenada 2,035 238 19,693
Ecuador 2,022 36,053 1,078,612
Andorra 1,994 159 48,015
Panama 1,989 8,754 1,044,914
Republic of Ireland 1,927 9,852 1,748,736
Lebanon 1,905 10,947 1,239,904
Kosovo 1,869 3,212 274,279
Bolivia 1,853 22,387 1,212,149
Costa Rica 1,844 9,374 1,235,479
Puerto Rico 1,832 5,938 1,252,713
Hong Kong 1,798 13,466 2,876,106
Montserrat 1,787 8 1,403
Malta 1,747 923 123,063
Monaco 1,720 67 17,181
Belize 1,708 688 71,416
British Virgin Islands 1,669 64 7,628
Denmark 1,661 9,808 3,439,642
Curaçao 1,645 305 45,883
South Africa 1,644 102,595 4,072,806
Iran 1,640 146,837 7,627,863
Switzerland 1,611 14,170 4,462,113
Collectivity of Saint Martin 1,591 46 12,324
Guyana 1,584 1,302 74,486
Cyprus 1,575 1,482 699,372
Antigua and Barbuda 1,572 146 9,106
Jersey 1,555 161 66,391
Luxembourg 1,530 1,000 394,694
United States Virgin Islands 1,525 132 25,389
Caribbean Netherlands 1,430 41 11,922
Canada 1,424 55,282 4,819,055
Namibia 1,422 4,110 172,556
Israel 1,395 12,707 4,841,558
French Guiana 1,384 413 98,041
Isle of Man 1,378 116 38,008
Seychelles 1,370 172 51,891
Netherlands 1,283 22,986 8,642,462
Albania 1,274 3,605 335,047
Jamaica 1,273 3,615 157,295
Jordan 1,254 14,122 1,746,997
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 1,214 124 9,674
Eswatini 1,170 1,427 75,356
Turkey 1,164 101,419 17,004,724
Botswana 1,148 2,801 330,696
Guatemala 1,131 20,203 1,250,390
Dominica 1,106 74 16,047
New Caledonia 1,093 314 80,203
Malaysia 1,076 37,351 5,314,299
Palestine 1,075 5,708 703,228
Honduras 1,062 11,114 472,909
Réunion 1,056 921 494,595
Guernsey 1,051 67 35,326
Norway 1,050 5,732 1,519,746
Azerbaijan 1,005 10,353 836,285
Bahrain 1,001 1,536 696,614
Saint Kitts and Nevis 984 46 6,607
Oman 978 4,628 399,449
Australia 963 25,236 11,861,161
Fiji 962 885 69,047
Kazakhstan 951 19,072 1,504,370
Libya 891 6,437 507,269
Northern Mariana Islands 889 41 14,982
Turks and Caicos Islands 872 40 6,805
New Zealand 862 4,424 2,647,737
Anguilla 844 12 3,904
Mauritius 841 1,074 328,744
Cabo Verde 802 417 64,474
Wallis and Futuna 782 9 3,760
Belarus 775 7,118 994,038
Cuba 771 8,530 1,113,662
Sri Lanka 740 16,907 672,802
Taiwan 739 17,672 9,970,937
American Samoa 702 34 8,359
South Korea 693 35,934 34,571,873
El Salvador 673 4,230 201,950
Mongolia 630 2,136 1,011,489
Mayotte 612 187 42,027
Maldives 602 316 186,694
Japan 597 74,694 33,803,572
Philippines 586 66,864 4,173,631
Indonesia 581 162,059 6,829,576
Federated States of Micronesia 579 65 31,765
Iraq 575 25,375 2,465,545
Palau 562 10 6,372
Kuwait 559 2,570 667,290
Faroe Islands 518 28 34,658
Cayman Islands 516 37 31,472
Iceland 489 186 210,591
Thailand 484 34,725 4,801,815
Saint Barthélemy 456 5 5,507
Morocco 436 16,305 1,279,115
Vietnam 433 43,206 11,624,000
Marshall Islands 424 17 16,297
Nepal 404 12,031 1,003,450
Brunei 397 181 348,737
Dominican Republic 390 4,384 661,103
Greenland 374 21 11,971
India 374 533,641 45,043,415
Myanmar 362 19,494 643,133
Singapore 358 2,024 3,006,155
Zimbabwe 357 5,740 266,393
Sao Tome and Principe 353 80 6,771
Saint Pierre and Miquelon 347 2 3,426
Lesotho 310 709 36,138
Saudi Arabia 299 9,646 841,469
Solomon Islands 254 199 25,954
Qatar 238 690 514,524
United Arab Emirates 229 2,349 1,067,030
Egypt 220 24,830 516,023
Venezuela 207 5,856 552,695
Mauritania 204 997 63,875
Zambia 202 4,078 349,880
Afghanistan 197 7,998 235,214
Comoros 191 160 9,109
Kiribati 183 24 5,085
Cambodia 177 3,056 139,324
Bangladesh 174 29,499 2,051,417
Macau 174 121 3,514
Djibouti 166 189 15,690
Algeria 151 6,881 272,170
Kyrgyzstan 147 1,024 88,953
Samoa 144 31 17,057
Gambia 141 372 12,627
Syria 140 3,163 57,423
Cook Islands 135 2 7,375
Malawi 130 2,686 89,168
Gabon 126 307 49,056
Pakistan 125 30,656 1,580,631
Tonga 123 13 16,992
Senegal 111 1,972 89,311
Rwanda 107 1,468 133,266
Kenya 104 5,689 344,109
Sudan 102 5,046 63,993
Equatorial Guinea 101 183 17,130
Timor-Leste 100 138 23,460
Tuvalu 99 1 2,943
Laos 88 671 219,060
China[c] 85 122,358 99,380,363
Nauru 84 1 5,393
Guinea-Bissau 84 177 9,614
Uganda 76 3,632 172,159
Somalia 76 1,361 27,334
Haiti 74 860 34,515
Cameroon 71 1,974 125,266
Mozambique 68 2,252 233,843
Papua New Guinea 65 670 46,864
Republic of the Congo 64 389 25,234
Ethiopia 60 7,574 501,224
Yemen 56 2,159 11,945
Liberia 54 294 8,090
Angola 54 1,937 107,481
Madagascar 46 1,428 68,572
Vanuatu 44 14 12,019
Ghana 44 1,462 172,107
Nicaragua 36 245 16,193
Guinea 33 468 38,575
Mali 32 743 33,166
Togo 31 290 39,531
Eritrea 30 103 10,189
Uzbekistan 29 1,016 175,081
Ivory Coast 27 835 88,444
Bhutan 26 21 62,697
Central African Republic 22 113 15,441
Burkina Faso 17 400 22,139
Sierra Leone 15 126 7,982
Democratic Republic of the Congo 14 1,474 100,973
Nigeria 14 3,155 267,189
South Sudan 13 147 18,830
Tanzania 13 846 43,244
Niger 12 315 9,525
Tajikistan 12 125 17,786
Benin 11 163 28,036
Chad 10 194 7,702
Burundi 1 15 54,569
Vatican City 0 0 26
Niue 0 0 1,087
Falkland Islands 0 0 1,923
Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha 0 0 2,166
Pitcairn Islands 0 0 4
Tokelau 0 0 80

I can't believe this is contested.

someone123 · #**12810** Posted **Today, 6:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool maudit

But something Anders Tegnell said very early on was that "we must remember that normalcy has a value, too". Most of Canada did not remember that.

You could take this to mean that there's some subjective value to a normal lifestyle, which is true, but you can also look at objective public health outcomes linked to factors like economic performance. A shift of something like 200 deaths per million per year can be induced by comparatively modest shifts in material standards of living and so on. For example it's reasonable to think that 2x housing prices or 10 years of poor productivity growth could have a similar or greater effect.

I would guess that the error bars on those death numbers are bigger than the differences between most of the countries.

There wasn't a whole lot of evidence of that many Canadians understanding these ideas and without them you can't reason about these trade-offs or interpret the data correctly.

suburbanite · #**12811** Posted **Today, 6:15 PM**

We could make a lot of decisions with adverse consequences if our only barometer was that 1,400/deaths per million is astounding, and 2,700 per million is unacceptable.

theman23 · #**12812** Posted **Today, 6:23 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Fair but anybody who cared about this was already in the Conservative camp so not relevant to the election campaign.

I think this is out of touch. There's been a dramatic realignment of the political spectrum in this country, and demographics that routinely have voted for progressive parties are now firmly in the CPC tent. A lot of this has to do with the pandemic and its fallout. You could argue that it's unfair to apportion that much blame to the Liberals, but they did it to themselves by branding themselves as Canada's Pandemic Party in the last election.