PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

I mean is every community in the county you live in the same? Little to wide of a generalization there.

I don't think this question follows from my simple observation.

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

It's a simple statement. I have nothing to add or subtract from it. I have a half century of experience with Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and America, so I don't need a lecture.

No lecture provided on my part. Only useful context (i.e., common sense) that is too often conveniently ignored in these kinds of conversations.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

We're going to be visiting Philly next weekend with our kids. Does anyone know how to get discounted tickets for the Franklin Institute? Our son loves Legos and we want to take him to the Lego exhibit.

A little outside of the city but much cheaper and kids can kill some time here:

https://www.legolanddiscoverycenter.com/philadelphia/

The mall is kind of dead but does have a busy D&B, places to eat both inside and outside of the mall, bungee for kids, etc. so there's plenty to do.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

That’s exactly my perspective as well. It’s like an emotional rollercoaster. Sometimes I feel like it’s better to just look the other way otherwise it just puts me in a bad mood for the rest of the day. I believe Nutter had some pretty hardline policies toward antisocial behavior during his term but I doubt people want to go back to that these days.

I was living in the city during his administration. I think it’s difficult for people to compare now vs then, myself included, considering it was so long ago now. However, now that everything is in full swing post COVID, I think generally things are in fact worse to varying degrees in most cities I’ve been to compared to the mid 2010’s. It’s not surprising given the fentanyl crisis, exodus of office workers and perhaps a growing cultural indifference to social disorder. While development is obviously much more ubiquitous (or at least prior to the current crunch), these factors have understandably created a sense of unease for many people. However, I think Parker and Bethel do deserve some credit and I’m somewhat hopeful of their long term effectiveness. Homicides are down dramatically and I rarely see the dirt bike/ATV gangs anymore. So while there are bright spots, I’m not confident we’ll return the full urban renaissance which persisted through the 2000’s-2010’s for most cities anytime soon; perhaps this is the new normal.

I think things are generally better than we give cities credit for.

I loved Nutter probably more than anyone, but let's not kid ourselves. When he was still mayor, Northern Liberties was a shell of it's current self, South/Old Kensington was a flint in somebody's imagination, and most of East Kensington, Upper Fishtown, Brewerytown, Point Breeze, etc were still hollowed out Twelve Monkey's situations.

To say things were better then than they are now is completely disingenuous. Maybe on the 1800 block of Walnut things were better, but for the vast majority of the city they were decidedly not better than they are now. It's almost laughable to even suggest it considering how many formerly barren parts of the city have completely filled in in the interim.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

A little outside of the city but much cheaper and kids can kill some time here:

https://www.legolanddiscoverycenter.com/philadelphia/

The mall is kind of dead but does have a busy D&B, places to eat both inside and outside of the mall, bungee for kids, etc. so there's plenty to do.

Related to PM Mall, there are plans to develop some of the parking lots into apartments. There is an ongoing back and forth for zoning and approvals (and typical pushback), but parking around PM Mall is a great spot for housing/density, and would help the mall.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I think things are generally better than we give cities credit for.

I loved Nutter probably more than anyone, but let's not kid ourselves. When he was still mayor, Northern Liberties was a shell of it's current self, South/Old Kensington was a flint in somebody's imagination, and most of East Kensington, Upper Fishtown, Brewerytown, Point Breeze, etc were still hollowed out Twelve Monkey's situations.

To say things were better then than they are now is completely disingenuous. Maybe on the 1800 block of Walnut things were better, but for the vast majority of the city they were decidedly not better than they are now. It's almost laughable to even suggest it considering how many formerly barren parts of the city have completely filled in in the interim.

No, I’m not being disingenuous. You didn’t read what I said. I said development has obviously been much more ubiquitous over the years which includes development in NoLibs etc. Crime across the board is still worse than under Nutter. And you’re in fact being disingenuous, you know it’s more than the 1800 block of Walnut - it applies to much of Center City. You honestly think Broad St is doing better? lol

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Related to PM Mall, there are plans to develop some of the parking lots into apartments. There is an ongoing back and forth for zoning and approvals (and typical pushback), but parking around PM Mall is a great spot for housing/density, and would help the mall.

Yep and there's a lot of potential on that site. Here's the latest that I have for anyone interested: https://morethanthecurve.com/plymout...-meeting-mall/

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

No, I’m not being disingenuous. You didn’t read what I said. I said development has obviously been much more ubiquitous over the years which includes development in NoLibs etc. Crime across the board is still worse than under Nutter. And you’re in fact being disingenuous, you know it’s more than the 1800 block of Walnut - it applies to much of Center City. You honestly think Broad St is doing better? lol

It's clear what I said. The "city" isn't just Center City and many of us are living in much nicer, lower crime neighborhoods than we were 15 years ago.

And crime is nearing 2016 levels again and homeless people with anti social behavior have always existed, so keep on spewing the OAN talking points.

And yes, Broad Street is doing MUCH better than it was during Nutter. Unless you define Broad Street as a few blocks south of City Hall.

Your comments are clearly Center City specific. Broad Street has sprouted new life between City Hall and Temple and south to Washington Avenue.

Are you saying a handful of drive through restaurants are better than Lincoln Square and the new Post Brothers Development? Are you saying the thousands of new apartments the entire length of North Broad have done nothing to make it better?

[Skang]

Guys be honest, That’s Philadelphia still has a top 10 skyline ?

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Skang

Guys be honest, That’s Philadelphia still has a top 10 skyline ?

Top 5 IMO.

My rank...

1. New York - Cliché to some, but the NYC skyline is fascinating. I took a helicopter ride around the city 2 years back, and it was an experience I will never forget.

2. Chicago - Beautiful architecture, elegant layout, integrated into the lakefront.

3/4. Tossup between Philadelphia and San Francisco. Both are tall, beautiful and dense with varying styles of architecture that compliment each other well.

5. Seattle - Elegant skyline.

I hear Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami, etc. mentioned in the top 5 more often. They are nice large skylines and some are in my top 10, however, they are not as harmonized as Philadelphia. Philadelphia has the advantage of old buildings mixed with new, extreme density, and a nice pyramid effect (tallest at the center). I don't base my rank solely on which city has the most skyscrapers (even though NYC & CHI have the most). Even as sunbelt cities boom, I don't see my top 5 changing anytime soon.

My take

[JohnIII]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Top 5 IMO.

My rank...

1. New York - Cliché to some, but the NYC skyline is fascinating. I took a helicopter ride around the city 2 years back, and it was an experience I will never forget.

2. Chicago - Beautiful architecture, elegant layout, integrated into the lakefront.

3/4. Tossup between Philadelphia and San Francisco. Both are tall, beautiful and dense with varying styles of architecture that compliment each other well.

5. Seattle - Elegant skyline.

I hear Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami, etc. mentioned in the top 5 more often. They are nice large skylines and some are in my top 10, however, they are not as harmonized as Philadelphia. Philadelphia has the advantage of old buildings mixed with new, extreme density, and a nice pyramid effect (tallest at the center). I don't base my rank solely on which city has the most skyscrapers (even though NYC & CHI have the most). Even as sunbelt cities boom, I don't see my top 5 changing anytime soon.

My take

I agree with your assessment. I really like how you laid it out.
I have no idea if the views of different individuals are even respected on here but I agree with you.

1. New York - Its large, unique, with an amazing variety and urban core

2. Chicago - Great architecture, from numerous angles its simply amazing.

3. Philadelphia - I would place Philadelphia a solid 3rd; great panoramic view of the skyline and no matter what angle you see center city its amazing. Great variety of old and new skyscrapers; especially from north and south angles but really any angle. Great pyramid concept and layout; plus it has taller buildings.

4. San Francisco - I place 4th because the skyscrapers are not as tall and the panoramic view is not quite as spread out but that a lot to do with the fact that their city is on a peninsula so geography and being in an earthquake zone plays a part. Also the city isn't as old but otherwise its skyline is amazing.

5. Seattle - Elegant skyline; I really like Seattle's skyline and I hope at my age I get to see what the city will be like in 20 to 30 years because it has a whole lot of potential. Time will tell.

Out of Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami and Los Angeles I would say:

6. Los Angeles - Its panoramic skyline is developing and spreading out but its architecture is mostly late 20th Century or later so it has good potential to be great especially in time as its earlier skyscrapers get older and new one are built.

7. Miami - Along the coast its skyline is already amazing its just seen mostly from one angle so once again if it grows inland it'll be interesting to see

8. Atlanta - This city has a good skyline and what they seem to have done is place their larger building specifically so they've achieved a panorama effect; however the city has to still grow with time to give it more depth. Atlanta is going to be a great skyline and I can see it moving up from this placement.

9. Houston - This city is essentially like Los Angeles with its building styles but they lack the panoramic spread of Los Angeles; its not as large as Los Angeles and time will change that. Houston has potential in decades to come

10. Dallas - This city has potential to have a great skyline; its just that at this point it is so soon that its hard to tell how it will be in 30 to 40 years.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

I don't think this question follows from my simple observation.

how? Philadelphia is a county. The largest most populated county in the region. Do you think every community is the same? How would that logic not apply to a different county?

This is what you said:

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

Yeah. The city strikes me as having a split personality right now. The look of health from so much development, and the look of sickness from quality of life and social issues.

As someone who grew up in Solebury and Gladwyne, but lived in Rittenhouse, East Passyunk, and now Chestnut Hill for my adult life, you think the communities I have been living in show signs of sickness from a quality of life and social standpoint? I find your comment to be a pretty big generalization...

[PhillyPDX]

Originally Posted by JohnIII

I agree with your assessment. I really like how you laid it out.
I have no idea if the views of different individuals are even respected on here but I agree with you.

1. New York - Its large, unique, with an amazing variety and urban core

2. Chicago - Great architecture, from numerous angles its simply amazing.

3. Philadelphia - I would place Philadelphia a solid 3rd; great panoramic view of the skyline and no matter what angle you see center city its amazing. Great variety of old and new skyscrapers; especially from north and south angles but really any angle. Great pyramid concept and layout; plus it has taller buildings.

4. San Francisco - I place 4th because the skyscrapers are not as tall and the panoramic view is not quite as spread out but that a lot to do with the fact that their city is on a peninsula so geography and being in an earthquake zone plays a part. Also the city isn't as old but otherwise its skyline is amazing.

5. Seattle - Elegant skyline; I really like Seattle's skyline and I hope at my age I get to see what the city will be like in 20 to 30 years because it has a whole lot of potential. Time will tell.

Out of Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami and Los Angeles I would say:

6. Los Angeles - Its panoramic skyline is developing and spreading out but its architecture is mostly late 20th Century or later so it has good potential to be great especially in time as its earlier skyscrapers get older and new one are built.

7. Miami - Along the coast its skyline is already amazing its just seen mostly from one angle so once again if it grows inland it'll be interesting to see

8. Atlanta - This city has a good skyline and what they seem to have done is place their larger building specifically so they've achieved a panorama effect; however the city has to still grow with time to give it more depth. Atlanta is going to be a great skyline and I can see it moving up from this placement.

9. Houston - This city is essentially like Los Angeles with its building styles but they lack the panoramic spread of Los Angeles; its not as large as Los Angeles and time will change that. Houston has potential in decades to come

10. Dallas - This city has potential to have a great skyline; its just that at this point it is so soon that its hard to tell how it will be in 30 to 40 years.

Concur.

Seattle cheats a bit since it's built into a big hill and smaller buildings look much taller than they really are.

Including Canada, since we are so interconnected with them. I'd move Toronto to #3 and Vancouver to #4. Toronto has seen so much growth, I don't think most Americans realize it.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

how? Philadelphia is a county. The largest most populated county in the region. Do you think every community is the same? How would that logic not apply to a different county?

This is what you said:


As someone who grew up in Solebury and Gladwyne, but lived in Rittenhouse, East Passyunk, and now Chestnut Hill for my adult life, you think the communities I have been living in show signs of sickness from a quality of life and social standpoint? I find your comment to be a pretty big generalization...

I wasn't making a comparison. Chill.

[TK2001]

I wonder where Houston would be on that list if the Bank of the Southwest Tower was built. What an absolute shame it didn't come to fruition

[bdurk]

Philly would be ranked 3 for me as well. Honestly I see Philly in most people's top 5's now whether it be on Reddit, X, or Facebook which is awesome to see. I know CTC was hated at first but I feel like a supertall really put Philly in a good light and we are finally getting the recognition our skyline deserves.

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Top 5 IMO.

My rank...

1. New York - Cliché to some, but the NYC skyline is fascinating. I took a helicopter ride around the city 2 years back, and it was an experience I will never forget.

2. Chicago - Beautiful architecture, elegant layout, integrated into the lakefront.

3/4. Tossup between Philadelphia and San Francisco. Both are tall, beautiful and dense with varying styles of architecture that compliment each other well.

5. Seattle - Elegant skyline.

I hear Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami, etc. mentioned in the top 5 more often. They are nice large skylines and some are in my top 10, however, they are not as harmonized as Philadelphia. Philadelphia has the advantage of old buildings mixed with new, extreme density, and a nice pyramid effect (tallest at the center). I don't base my rank solely on which city has the most skyscrapers (even though NYC & CHI have the most). Even as sunbelt cities boom, I don't see my top 5 changing anytime soon.

My take

This seems right on to me. If we add Canada, then I can see Toronto as 3, but Vancouver seems lower than Philadelphia since there's not much variation. I like the Montreal, Edmonton and Calgary skylines more personally.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

It's clear what I said. The "city" isn't just Center City and many of us are living in much nicer, lower crime neighborhoods than we were 15 years ago.

And crime is nearing 2016 levels again and homeless people with anti social behavior have always existed, so keep on spewing the OAN talking points.

And yes, Broad Street is doing MUCH better than it was during Nutter. Unless you define Broad Street as a few blocks south of City Hall.

Your comments are clearly Center City specific. Broad Street has sprouted new life between City Hall and Temple and south to Washington Avenue.

Are you saying a handful of drive through restaurants are better than Lincoln Square and the new Post Brothers Development? Are you saying the thousands of new apartments the entire length of North Broad have done nothing to make it better?

Yes, you live in the NoLibs bubble - surprise surprise. I honestly don't know why you even read or reply to my posts. I never read yours. It’s like you purposely want to be triggered and have an axe to grind with me. It’s bizarre you’re picking on me when I was responding to a different person who expressed many of the same views I have. Go take your political angst out on Twitter.

For the last time, I’ve already addressed the difference between development and QOL issues. Please stop pretending like you don’t understand the difference.

Unlike you, I actually leave my neighborhood. I’m in NYC every week and visit Southern California every other month. Many of us still see the social ills and QOL issues here and elsewhere. Are we not allowed to express that and be critical?

And so what if it’s “Center City” specific? It’s the heart of the city.

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by TK2001

I wonder where Houston would be on that list if the Bank of the Southwest Tower was built. What an absolute shame it didn't come to fruition

Agreed, I hope Houston (and maybe LA) finally realize 1,200+ footers someday.

I think Philly is #3 too but there's a lot of gray area / competition after NY and Chicago. Philly officially has the tallest tower outside of NY or Chi but Salesforce may be a bit more imposing from many angles.

Houston, Miami, LA and maybe a few others pass it in overall quantity though which matters.

In terms of aesthetics Philly is awesome though. Seattle and SF are pretty up there too in that regard.