Housing Bubble II: The Quest To Build Enough Homes Where People Actually Need Them

[theman23]

Condos' made sense when they were cheap - you sacrificed space for a more economical living situation. Now you're paying $1000psf for a tiny closet. The Gatineau market in particular is bonkers, with newer condos selling for Toronto/Vancouver resale prices in a market where you can still buy a SFH for $300k.

[Coldrsx]

The value proposition is also about location location location, walkability, perhaps no need for a vehicle and ability to lock the door and head across the world at a moments notice.

[Build.It]

Not for suburban condos

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

The value proposition is also about location location location, walkability, perhaps no need for a vehicle and ability to lock the door and head across the world at a moments notice.

Yeah, that's what we like about our townhouse. We have a pile of grocery stores (I can think of at least six off the top of my head) within a ten minute walk, a library, dentists, a couple of malls, loads of restaurants. When we bought it our townhouse was running about half the price of a single family home. It comes with two parking spots, but we don't own a car, so we installed bike racks in one of them.

I don't know if you'd call where we live "suburban" but we're in a suburb of Vancouver and we have a bunch of SFHs around us (and a bunch of three-storey apartment building too that are mostly lower-cost rentals).

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

The value proposition is also about location location location, walkability, perhaps no need for a vehicle and ability to lock the door and head across the world at a moments notice.

That only applies to downtown condos and, maybe, condos in the best TOD communities of our suburban areas.

In Toronto, you're just as likely to find 500ft2 1 "bedroom" condos with the unusable kitchen and the "bedroom" that's made up of two glass sliding doors and no real window in suburbs where you're across a stroad from a power centre and there's an occasional bus.

Who knows where the world will be in 30 years, but I don't think it will still be a world of high immigration and insatiable housing demand. Around that time, when those buildings are getting worse for wear, they will be extremely unappealing places to live and will probably be slums.

[Coldrsx]

Sure, but we have had suburban apartments for decades, centuries...

Ownership choice is not a bad thing as the market will help decide that and as we have seen it often shifts between condominiumized and rental apartment every 7-10 years.

There are benefits to both, with many still believing that renting is 'throwing money away'.

Choice is good.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

The value proposition is also about location location location, walkability, perhaps no need for a vehicle and ability to lock the door and head across the world at a moments notice.

Yep those are the exact reasons I've been enjoying condos for years (decades!).

Combine with the fact that you don't actually have to do the maintenance work, just pay for it.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Yep those are the exact reasons I've been enjoying condos for years (decades!).

Combine with the fact that you don't actually have to do the maintenance work, just pay for it.

As someone who's lucky enough to grow up in and currently own a house, no one ever said you have to do the maintenance work, you can still just pay for it. The only thing you have to do is delegate and manage.

Originally Posted by theman23

Condos' made sense when they were cheap - you sacrificed space for a more economical living situation. Now you're paying $1000psf for a tiny closet. The Gatineau market in particular is bonkers, with newer condos selling for Toronto/Vancouver resale prices in a market where you can still buy a SFH for $300k.

There's also a value proposition in owning a new structure, with A/C, modern appliances, amenities, and security.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by chowhou

As someone who's lucky enough to grow up in and currently own a house, no one ever said you have to do the maintenance work, you can still just pay for it. The only thing you have to do is delegate and manage.

That's true, in that sense you have a choice vs. not. The economies of scale that should be present in large condo developments also don't materialize because you've got lazy condo boards, and/or you're paying commercial rates for all of that stuff.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

That's true, in that sense you have a choice vs. not. The economies of scale that should be present in large condo developments also don't materialize because you've got lazy condo boards, and/or you're paying commercial rates for all of that stuff.

Cleaning windows 40 stories above street level is also more expensive than cleaning windows 2 stories above street level.

Houses also don't have elevator maintenance (generally).

[Innsertnamehere]

or structural rehabilitations of parking garages, or full-exterior cladding replacements every 25 years, or common area renovations, or security staffing expenses, etc..

Owning a lowrise house is significantly cheaper to maintain even when subbing out all work than a condo, especially on a per square foot basis. Plus you have the ability to do a lot yourself if you wish, which can bring costs down even further.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

or structural rehabilitations of parking garages, or full-exterior cladding replacements every 25 years, or common area renovations, or security staffing expenses, etc..

Owning a lowrise house is significantly cheaper to maintain even when subbing out all work than a condo, especially on a per square foot basis. Plus you have the ability to do a lot yourself if you wish, which can bring costs down even further.

Or not do a lot yourself. In a condo you've got no choice but to pay up if they vote to replace a roof. In your own house you could just throw a tarp over the leaky bits.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

or structural rehabilitations of parking garages, or full-exterior cladding replacements every 25 years, or common area renovations, or security staffing expenses, etc.

I mean, I think a responsible homeowner does actually have these expenses; garages need to be maintained, houses need to have siding and roofs replaced, interiors have wear and tear that need to be maintained, and I imagine most people are paying for security systems?

[WarrenC12]

You don't get 40th floor views in a SFH either. Most underground parkades are more climate controlled and secure than any garage, etc. etc.

[Nite]

Change in the minimum income to purchase a home in July 2004 compared to a month earlier.



https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/how-mu...onth-1.7006080

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I mean, I think a responsible homeowner does actually have these expenses; garages need to be maintained, houses need to have siding and roofs replaced, interiors have wear and tear that need to be maintained, and I imagine most people are paying for security systems?

yes, but generally these need to be done less often and as others have said, can be deferred.

My house is 50 years old this year - the garage slab is original. Exterior stone cladding is original and in fine condition for probably another 50 years (wood paneling has been replaced). I still have an original window, though it is a deferred item which needs attention soon. Things like soffits, exterior doors, etc. all are replaced from original in the last 10 years or so.

There is maintenance, but they are more limited in scope and done with cheaper materials, generally speaking.

There are things you get in a condo like common area amenities, views, etc. which aren't really achievable in low-rise housing, but in my opinion they aren't worth the significant additional cost you pay in much higher maintenance costs. My 2 cents.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

There are things you get in a condo like common area amenities, views, etc. which aren't really achievable in low-rise housing, but in my opinion they aren't worth the significant additional cost you pay in much higher maintenance costs. My 2 cents.

The other aspects of condo living include being in a downtown/central area. Where I live there are very few if any SFHs nearby and I wouldn't want to live in one anyway (or a ground floor unit TBH).

Now, picking a condo in a far flung suburb seems like a poor choice to me but that's all some people can afford.

Condo maintenance is high but often includes heat, hot water, etc. Like anything else it needs to be compared fairly and accurately. People will tell you renting is "throwing money away" without understanding that home ownership costs more than just a mortgage payment.

[niwell]

There are definitely upsides to condo living as have been described in multiple posts above. However I think the big issue is that in an increasing number of markets the current cost doesn't really justify these benefits. Particularly when taking into account new unit size/layout and location of new buildings. You can justify a premium in neighbourhoods like Vancouver's downtown peninsula or Toronto's Entertainment District, but the units still need to be livable (as opposed to investor targeted). It's pretty egregious in some of the insta-built suburban tower communities that don't exactly have much going for the location. Hell, even my friends condo in an "older" Liberty Village building is quite a bit bigger than new builds and when he got it 10 years ago the price made sense vs ground-oriented housing in central Toronto.

Of course suburban towers aren't anything new in Canada, but in Ontario at least the classic 60s/70s slab apartment tower (a decent number of which are condos) featured spacious units at an affordable price. I lived in a 3 bedroom unit located in Lincoln Fields in Ottawa and even though it wasn't my cup of tea you could easily raise a family there. The price at the time (it was owned by an exes parents) was considerably cheaper psf than the small SFHs in the immediate area. Worth noting that plenty of these buildings do have significant issues today if they were not maintained properly / funds were mismanaged.

[SpongeG]

Here in the LM a lot of projects just haven't started despite being approved and have had sales going on, some of the showrooms shut down as they claimed to be sold out yet the project hasn't been started.

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[giallo]

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