Is the meaning of urban and suburban relative?

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

When I look at Tokyo dense residential areas compared to Manhattan, Tokyo definitely looks less dense in that it doesn't have street after street of highrise and midrise like most of Manhattan does.

Manhattan is an order of magnitude denser than Tokyo in both population and built form. That's not in question.

What is dubious is this idea that Tokyo is a "medium-density" city relative to NYC because the UES (or wherever) has a density of 120K per square mile. That's like saying NYC is a medium-density city compared to Hong Kong because Kowloon (26 square miles, including a huge chunk of mountainous area) has an average density of 111K per square mile, with Mong Kok having the highest density on Earth at 340K per square mile.

But it honestly doesn't seem less urban; it just seems differently urban. I think it's in large part because Tokyo has such narrow, winding streets with such finely-grained fabric that it seems almost claustrophobic.

Yes, the two cities achieve their densities differently. Here's Nerima and the densest part of Bay Ridge from 50 feet above (not quite a perfect scale comparison, but close enough):

Nerima:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4gxbLdtyr1W8Jm4o8

Bay Ridge:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/o7AmEd21fdnhnyVe8

You can see that Brooklyn's streets typically accommodate three lanes of cars with generous sidewalks on each side. Then factor in all those yards and back parking. That adds up quickly.

[pdxtex]

Tokyo doesn't have end over end height like Manhattan but there isn't an ounce of space thats wasted there. Japan has layers upon layers of arterial streets that even tho you can access them with a car still take the pedestrian in mind. And the rail transit is stacked like jenga in some spots. The one thing that surprised me was the prevalence of detached single family homes even in the middle of the city. Yeah they're at weird angles and take up the entire tiny lot but they are separated.

[Notonfoodstamps]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I am not conflating Manhattan with New York you all just like to argue lol. There are not 1.5 million people in Tokyo that live in a population density near or higher than the average density of Manhattan. Manhattan is what New Yorkers attune their scale of urban-to-suburban. Not sure why this is so controversial to some people other than for ax grinding purposes lol.

I lived in the Tokyo area for 4 years and am intimately familiar with NYC due to family ties.

That’s objectively false.

Peak daytime populations of Tokyo’s most central 23 wards (Chiyoda, Shinjuku, Chou, Minato & Shibuya) routinely average 3-4 million people during the work day in roughly ~24 sq/mi which puts central Tokyo on par with Manhattans own peak in both raw population and density. They have lower nighttime residential population (1.1 million) vs Manhattan (1.6 million) because Central Tokyo is proportionally more office heavy than Manhattan.

That being said, Tokyo still has almost 1 million more people than NYC even if you removed Staten Island geographically and added its population to the other 4 boroughs.

Tokyo matches or exceeds NYC on virtually every density level, structural level and every example of “suburban” in Tokyo you can find greater quantities in NYC proper let alone their burbs.

The only thing NYC has more of is buildings over +150/100m and that’s solely due to earthquake laws in Japan.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Notonfoodstamps

Peak daytime populations of Tokyo’s most central 23 wards (Chiyoda, Shinjuku, Chou, Minato & Shibuya) routinely average 3-4 million people during the work day in roughly ~24 sq/mi which puts central Tokyo on par with Manhattans own peak in both raw population and density.

There's no way the above is true.

Core Tokyo isn't dense. It's much less dense than other Asian or Western cities. Tokyo has flat density, and Japan doesn't have some unique office arrangement where workers are uniquely stuffed into office space.

Tokyo isn't a dense city. Not remotely as dense as NYC, Paris, Barcelona, and virtually every major Asian city. It's basically a Mexico City or LA-type arrangement, with flat density over a vast area, and no real peak density.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Notonfoodstamps

I lived in the Tokyo area for 4 years and am intimately familiar with NYC due to family ties.

That’s objectively false.

Peak daytime populations of Tokyo’s most central 23 wards (Chiyoda, Shinjuku, Chou, Minato & Shibuya) routinely average 3-4 million people during the work day in roughly ~24 sq/mi which puts central Tokyo on par with Manhattans own peak in both raw population and density. They have lower nighttime residential population (1.1 million) vs Manhattan (1.6 million) because Central Tokyo is proportionally more office heavy than Manhattan.

What on earth are you talking about? The 23 wards have a land area of 239 square miles, not 24 square miles. They have 10 times the land area of Manhattan. The comment I made was also about residential population, not daytime population. The daytime population of Manhattan (pre-pandemic) was roughly 5 million.

[Notonfoodstamps]

Originally Posted by Crawford

There's no way the above is true.

Core Tokyo isn't dense. It's much less dense than other Asian or Western cities. Tokyo has flat density, and Japan doesn't have some unique office arrangement where workers are uniquely stuffed into office space.

Tokyo isn't a dense city. Not remotely as dense as NYC, Paris, Barcelona, and virtually every major Asian city. It's basically a Mexico City or LA-type arrangement, with flat density over a vast area, and no real peak density.

The above is absolutely true. 2020 pop (so slightly outdated)

Chiyoda - 66.7k / 11.6 sq/km
Chuo - 169.2k / 10.2 sq/km
Minato - 260.5k / 20.4 sq/km
Shinjuku - 349.8k / 18.2 sq/km
Shibuya - 243.8k /15.11 sq/km

Total - 1.1 million people in 75 sq/km (28.95 sq/m)

If you remove Chiyoda you still have a night time population of well over 1 million people in ~24 sq/mi vs. Manhattan 1.6 in ~23 sq/mi

Significantly more people commute into central Tokyo than people do into Manhattan. Why? Because Tokyo’s metro is twice the size of NYC’s let alone anything in Europe lmao.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

What on earth are you talking about? The 23 wards have a land area of 239 square miles, not 24 square miles. They have 10 times the land area of Manhattan. The comment I made was also about residential population, not daytime population. The daytime population of Manhattan (pre-pandemic) was roughly 5 million.

Peak Manhattan population pre-pandemic maxed out around 4 million people. https://www.6sqft.com/see-nycs-popul...four%20million.

What part of Chiyoda, Shinjuku, Minato, Chuo & Shibuya did you miss? I specifically said the most central of Tokyo’s 23 wards.

As of 2024, Shinjuku, Minato, Chuo & Shibuya combined have 1.1-1.2 million people in ~24 ish sq/mi

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Notonfoodstamps

Peak Manhattan population pre-pandemic maxed out around 4 million people. https://www.6sqft.com/see-nycs-popul...four%20million.

What part of Chiyoda, Shinjuku, Minato, Chuo & Shibuya did you miss? I specifically said the most central of Tokyo’s 23 wards.

As of 2024, Shinjuku, Minato, Chuo & Shibuya combined have 1.1-1.2 million people in ~24 ish sq/mi

I misread the original comment, my mistake. But I still don't see what this has to do with my point about Manhattan being more densely populated. Those wards combined have a residential population density of 37k/ square mile. That's lower than Brooklyn's population density, to say nothing of Manhattan's.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Notonfoodstamps

The above is absolutely true. 2020 pop (so slightly outdated)

Chiyoda - 66.7k / 11.6 sq/km
Chuo - 169.2k / 10.2 sq/km
Minato - 260.5k / 20.4 sq/km
Shinjuku - 349.8k / 18.2 sq/km
Shibuya - 243.8k /15.11 sq/km

Total - 1.1 million people in 75 sq/km (28.95 sq/m)

If you remove Chiyoda you still have a night time population of well over 1 million people in ~24 sq/mi vs. Manhattan 1.6 in ~23 sq/mi

Assuming these numbers are correct, it means core Tokyo has around half the density of core NYC, so I'm not sure of your point. Clearly Tokyo isn't remotely as dense as NYC. There are no Tokyo equivalents to NYC's core commercial and residential districts.

Originally Posted by Notonfoodstamps

Significantly more people commute into central Tokyo than people do into Manhattan. Why? Because Tokyo’s metro is twice the size of NYC’s let alone anything in Europe lmao.

This is obviously untrue. Core NYC is the world's largest employment center. It's the largest CBD in the history of humanity. Tokyo has dispersed employment, as seen in Mexico City and LA.

And Tokyo's Metro is much smaller than NYC's subway. Same is true for a number of European systems. Even Madrid has a much larger Metro system than Tokyo. Tokyo has a gigantic rail system, but the Metro alone isn't among the largest.

Tokyo has much higher transit ridership than NYC and anywhere in Europe (Tokyo has the highest ridership on earth), but modal share has nothing to do with core employment density, obviously. Many relatively small European cities have higher transit ridership than say Chicago, but that doesn't mean they have larger CBD employment density. Chicago has one of the larger CBDs on earth. Montreal has nearly 3x the rail ridership of Chicago. Montreal's CBD is a fraction of Chicago's size.

[Notonfoodstamps]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I misread the original comment, my mistake. But I still don't see what this has to do with my point about Manhattan being more densely populated. Those wards combined have a residential population density of 37k/ square mile. That's lower than Brooklyn's population density, to say nothing of Manhattan's.

Shinjuku, Minato, Shibuya, Chou have a combined density of ~50k ppsm vs. Manhattan’s ~70k ppsm

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Notonfoodstamps

Shinjuku, Minato, Shibuya, Chou have a combined density of ~50k ppsm vs. Manhattan’s ~70k ppsm

No, they don't. They have a population density of 41,464k/ square mile. Much closer to Brooklyn's than Manhattan's. But even 50k would be closer to Brooklyn's density (38,634/sq mi) than Manhattan's (74,781.6/sq mi).

[Crawford]

Vancouver, which has very small core CBD employment, has 3x the heavy rail ridership of SF or Philly, and 9x the heavy rail ridership of Miami. Vancouver prolly has the core office employment of a Cincy or Kansas City.

There's no obvious relationship between rail transit ridership and core CBD employment.

[Notonfoodstamps]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Assuming these numbers are correct, it means core Tokyo has around half the density of core NYC, so I'm not sure of your point. Clearly Tokyo isn't remotely as dense as NYC. There are no Tokyo equivalents to NYC's core commercial and residential districts.

Why wouldn’t they be true? I’m not wasting my time to type random numbers.

Shibuya, Minato, Chuo & Shinjuku have have 1.1-1.2 million people in ~24 sq/mi or an average density of ~50k ppsm vs. Manhattans ~73k ppsm.

The district wards of Toshima & Nakano have densities approaching 60k ppsm so by that logic Brooklyn & Bronx are suburban.

Manhattan is by far an outlier to all of NYC, central Tokyo while not as resident population dense as Manhattan is substantially more analogous to the rest of the city form a density standpoint.

Originally Posted by Crawford

This is obviously untrue. Core NYC is the world's largest employment center. It's the largest CBD in the history of humanity. Tokyo has dispersed employment, as seen in Mexico City and LA.

That’s extremely debatable as there is no standard of how CBD are computed, nor is their office space metrics for central Tokyo the way there are for Manhattan.

Originally Posted by Crawford

And Tokyo's Metro is much smaller than NYC'subway. Same is true for a number of European systems. Even Madrid has a much larger Metro system than Tokyo. Tokyo has a gigantic rail system, but the Metro alone isn't among the largest.

Tokyo has much higher transit ridership than NYC and anywhere in Europe (Tokyo has the highest ridership on earth), but modal share has nothing to do with core employment density, obviously. Many relatively small European cities have higher transit ridership than say Chicago, but that doesn't mean they have larger CBD employment density. Chicago has one of the larger CBDs on earth. Montreal has nearly 3x the rail ridership of Chicago. Montreal's CBD is a fraction of Chicago's size.

Chiyoda in isolation goes from a night time population of 66k population to 850k daytime population from commuter inflow. But go off.

Tokyo’s is not analogies to Mexico City or LA and thats a common misconception.

It’s employment is centralized in Chiyoda, Shinjuku, Shibuya, Minato & Chuo hence the creation of the Yamanote Line (Loop) all of which is <30 sq/mi no more than NYC’s is concentrated in Manhattan.

Those 4/5 wards have a GDP in excess of $1 trillion USD

[Notonfoodstamps]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

No, they don't. They have a population density of 41,464k/ square mile. Much closer to Brooklyn's than Manhattan's. But even 50k would be closer to Brooklyn's density (38,634/sq mi) than Manhattan's (74,781.6/sq mi).

They have 1.1-1.2 million in 2024.

1.1-1.2 million people divided by 24 sq/mi is a density of 45-50k ppsm. If nighttime density is your only baring of which is more urban then there’s no point in debating this any further.

Midtown Manhattan only has a density of 46k ppsm so by your logic upper westside is more urban than it?

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Notonfoodstamps

They have 1.1-1.2 million in 2024.

1.1-1.2 million people divided by 24 sq/mi is a density of 45-50k ppsm. If nighttime density is your only baring of which is more urban then there’s no point in debating this any further.

Midtown Manhattan only has a density of 46k ppsm so by your logic upper westside is more urban than it?

Just admit that you were wrong and move on lol:

Originally Posted by Notonfoodstamps

Tokyo matches or exceeds NYC on virtually every density level, structural level and every example of “suburban” in Tokyo you can find greater quantities in NYC proper let alone their burbs

Just being loud and wrong.

[Notonfoodstamps]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Just admit that you were wrong and move on lol:

I didn’t say anything wrong. Manhattan is more residentially dense and I’ve repeatedly said that.

That doesn’t mean Central Tokyo can’t or doesn't reach Manhattan daytime population densities.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Just being loud and wrong.

Definition of “virtually” - nearly; almost.

Not loud and not wrong. Manhattan is residentially denser than the Central Tokyo and that was never contested. Both areas represent ~10% of their respective cities.

This is also coming from someone saying Tokyo isn’t as remotely dense as NYC?

NYC isn’t just Manhattan. Next

[Steely Dan]

Next indeed.

Enough of this city vs. city garbage.