Canadian LRT/RT projects U/C

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Nite

This is what standardization will fix, the plans are already there and you just need to follow them, no need to start all new, and if there is any doubt just go look at the other stations built with the same layouts.

as for how we can get this done i figure Transport Canada, Metrolink or CDPQ Infra could come up with DETAILED design standards and hope the rest of the country adopts them.

Could you elaborate on that idea? I'm having trouble following how standardization relates to the part I was discussing. I was referring to how when cities go for extended periods between projects, it may require new labour to be hired, new organizational structures created, etc. Perhaps standardization would prevent them from having to design the next project from scratch. But how would standardization force cities to provide continual project funding so that as one project winds down, another is immediately ready to ramp up? That seems more like a political rather than a technical issue unless I'm missing something.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Could you elaborate on that idea? I'm having trouble following how standardization relates to the part I was discussing. I was referring to how when cities go for extended periods between projects, it may require new labour to be hired, new organizational structures created, etc. Perhaps standardization would prevent them from having to design the next project from scratch. But how would standardization force cities to provide continual project funding so that as one project winds down, another is immediately ready to ramp up? That seems more like a political rather than a technical issue unless I'm missing something.

Reese explains it here

• Video Link

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Nite

Reese explains it here

• Video Link

Ok... In that case, you're either mis-interpreting what I said or what Reese said. Or both.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Related to cost issues...

In Toronto, a 2km bike path was announced that will cost $150 million.

A lot of this blame should be placed on Metrolinx, which is a very non-transparent organization that relies very heavily on consultants to do work that they should really be doing in house, even though they have a lot of people on payroll.

You'll never get an itemized budget for where that $150 million went. To do this, you would have to submit a FOI request and get something back that's heavily redacted.

I think that Metrolinx gets away with this level of waste for two reasons:

1. They have a comms team that produces very slick content: newsletters, Twitter posts, Instagram reels and stories on their website all have a very glossy and unified look and feel. They pump these out regularly, giving people a sense that things are happening, but they never get into the nitty gritty of things like cost, or detailed impacts or timelines.

2. I think there's a general resignation among the chattering classes that, even if they are opaque, wasteful and maybe something worse, at least they're building badly-needed infrastructure. Nobody wants to go back to the time when detailed studies were released just to be used by politicians to quash proposals.

On point #2, Metrolinx has to be careful, because even though they've spent a lot of money, and there are a lot of promises, they don't have anything to show for it. While there are things like GO train station openings here and there, and modest improvements to train schedules, there hasn't been a ribbon cutting for any major Metrolinx project, most notoriously the Eglinton Crosstown.

In fact, with the closure of the Scarborough RT, Toronto has the dubious distinction of being the only Canadian city to have less rapid transit than it did 5 years ago.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

A lot of this blame should be placed on Metrolinx, which is a very non-transparent organization that relies very heavily on consultants to do work that they should really be doing in house, even though they have a lot of people on payroll.

You'll never get an itemized budget for where that $150 million went. To do this, you would have to submit a FOI request and get something back that's heavily redacted.

I think that Metrolinx gets away with this level of waste for two reasons:

1. They have a comms team that produces very slick content: newsletters, Twitter posts, Instagram reels and stories on their website all have a very glossy and unified look and feel. They pump these out regularly, giving people a sense that things are happening, but they never get into the nitty gritty of things like cost, or detailed impacts or timelines.

2. I think there's a general resignation among the chattering classes that, even if they are opaque, wasteful and maybe something worse, at least they're building badly-needed infrastructure. Nobody wants to go back to the time when detailed studies were released just to be used by politicians to quash proposals.

On point #2, Metrolinx has to be careful, because even though they've spent a lot of money, and there are a lot of promises, they don't have anything to show for it. While there are things like GO train station openings here and there, and modest improvements to train schedules, there hasn't been a ribbon cutting for any major Metrolinx project, most notoriously the Eglinton Crosstown.

In fact, with the closure of the Scarborough RT, Toronto has the dubious distinction of being the only Canadian city to have less rapid transit than it did 5 years ago.

To be fair this won't be true within the next 6 months. Both Finch and Eglinton will be opening very soon.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

In fact, with the closure of the Scarborough RT, Toronto has the dubious distinction of being the only Canadian city to have less rapid transit than it did 5 years ago.

Ottawa's Line 2 that had 20k ridership has been closed for 4 years now. Somewhat similar situation. When it reopens, it will offer nothing new to the old ridership base other than a couple new stations and very minor upgrades to a few of the original stations.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

To be fair this won't be true within the next 6 months. Both Finch and Eglinton will be opening very soon.

Six months seems optimistic. Isn't the rumour now that we're looking at a 2025 opening? If that's the case, I can't imagine they'll be opening it in the winter. I would think spring 2025 is best case scenario at this point, with summer being more likely.

[niwell]

TTC driver training has started (training of the trainers is presumably finished) so I don't think a late Fall opening is out of the question. They may wait until Spring but Toronto winters aren't particularly onerous outside of a few weeks in January/February.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by niwell

TTC driver training has started (training of the trainers is presumably finished) so I don't think a late Fall opening is out of the question. They may wait until Spring but Toronto winters aren't particularly onerous outside of a few weeks in January/February.

Metrolinx has come out and said they will make an announcement 3 months prior to opening. That leaves us until the end of the month if they're going to open this fall. Anyways, late spring to summer 2025 seems more likely from what I've heard.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Ok... In that case, you're either mis-interpreting what I said or what Reese said. Or both.

It kinda answered it. It's a China standard and mostly national-level implementation teams and they have scale that even during a hard recession some project would be underway in one city or another.


I'm not sure how that applies to Canada alone. If Canada, USA, and Mexico got together to create and use a small number of common designs with a single shared building code, engineering team, manufacturing facility, etc. then we might have scale to eliminate periods without work. Local governance (Ontario having most of the power in the region) is expensive due to reduced economies of scale; but some of the benefits are non-trivial too.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by rbt

It kinda answered it. It's a China standard and mostly national-level implementation teams and they have scale that even during a hard recession some project would be underway in one city or another.


I'm not sure how that applies to Canada alone. If Canada, USA, and Mexico got together to create and use a small number of common designs with a single shared building code, engineering team, manufacturing facility, etc. then we might have scale to eliminate periods without work. Local governance (Ontario having most of the power in the region) is expensive due to reduced economies of scale; but some of the benefits are non-trivial too.

Yeah I'm not sure how that relates to Canada either. What I was referring to is the idea of individual cities building at a constant steady rate to eliminate the local boom-bust cycle that effects and operations at a local. If cities like say, Toronto and Montreal would basically start a new line or extension as soon as a previous one finished, it would eliminate the costly ramping up cycle. Unless all the labour and operations teams moved from city to city like military deployments then there being projects in other cities wouldn't really help things.

And the bigger part of it is that not only would that approach eliminate the challenge of ramp up/down cycles, but it would also prevent the cities from falling behind on infrastructure. If cities are experiencing constant strong population growth then they generally should be growing their infrastructure at a constant rate too. While it would probably require more monetary investment overall, we'd be getting much more value for that money. Something like 100% more infrastructure for 30-50% greater cost. Which is actually even better than it sounds when you remember that a lack of infrastructure also costs money. Or more accurately, hampers the economy's ability to produce it.

[craner]

And the list of transit rail projects with significant cost increases continues:

Surrey-Langley SkyTrain costs soar by $2B as construction delayed: province

http://https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/highlights/surrey-langley-skytrain-costs-soar-by-2b-as-construction-delayed-province-9357869

[Metro-One]

This is getting insane.

Again, Evergreen Line (elevated + 2.2 KM tunnel, semi-basket weave junction, 6 stations) 1.4 billion less than 10 years ago.

This project is purely elevated (no tunnels) and runs in a straight line, much of it through low density farmland, for 16 KM.

That's now roughly 270 million per KM. This is not sustainable.

The phase 3 section of the Highway 1 expansion in the valley (just a single lane in each direction plus a wider shoulder that duels as a bus lane with several upgraded interchanges, only 3 of them major rebuilds, is now approaching 6 billion dollars as well.

These are not sustainable costs for infrastructure projects. Something really needs to be done.