PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread II

[Johnland]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

We don't need to extend the BSL to the airport. Speeding up the regional rail speeds would be great and increasing frequency

That would be a good step in the right direction. In addition to increasing frequency, if those horribly dated terminal rail stations could be updated and cleaned. Let's fix and clean the stairs and the elevators. While they're at it, clean up the whole railway to 30th St. Station. There's fallen dead trees, trash, junk, weeds 10 ft high. Some of that might be on Amtrak. It just makes for a horrible and depressing entrance to the city.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

We don't need to extend the BSL to the airport. Speeding up the regional rail speeds would be great and increasing frequency

Regional Rail to the Airport is about as fast as it could reasonably be. The existing tracks between 60th Street and 90th Street are rated for 80 mph, and with only one intermediate stop at Eastwick, there are very few ways to actually speed it up between Suburban and Airport Terminal F.

There has been some discussion from KPHL of replacing the 4 terminal stops with one, large terminal stop a la Midway, O'Hare, etc. It would mean more walking for passengers but quicker turnaround times and more operational flexibility for the line itself.

The two largest hurdles towards narrowing headways on the Airport Line are freight traffic and the single track bridge over the NEC at the start of the line. If freight traffic could be removed from the Airport Line (perhaps by restoring the old PRR Fort Mifflin Branch as a bypass?) and if a second track could be added from 60th Street to the NEC (this was provided for in the original design of the line), 20 minute headways could be reasonably achieved.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

We don't need to extend the BSL to the airport. Speeding up the regional rail speeds would be great and increasing frequency

You have to admit though, 30 minute headways isn't bad at all. If you are unlucky, you are waiting for 29 minutes but with no forethought about when to get to the platform, the typical person will average a 15-minute wait.

Now if the headways were an hour, I'd agree with you.

[DeltaNerd]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Regional Rail to the Airport is about as fast as it could reasonably be. The existing tracks between 60th Street and 90th Street are rated for 80 mph, and with only one intermediate stop at Eastwick, there are very few ways to actually speed it up between Suburban and Airport Terminal F.

There has been some discussion from KPHL of replacing the 4 terminal stops with one, large terminal stop a la Midway, O'Hare, etc. It would mean more walking for passengers but quicker turnaround times and more operational flexibility for the line itself.

The two largest hurdles towards narrowing headways on the Airport Line are freight traffic and the single track bridge over the NEC at the start of the line. If freight traffic could be removed from the Airport Line (perhaps by restoring the old PRR Fort Mifflin Branch as a bypass?) and if a second track could be added from 60th Street to the NEC (this was provided for in the original design of the line), 20 minute headways could be reasonably achieved.

I have heard of plans to consolidate the terminals into one check-in hall and have the station stops consolidated to one station as well.

Yeah I guess my main complaint is the speed from Penn Med to the bridge crossing the NEC. It feels unreasonably slow imo. The second track would be ideal.

I have seen some documents mentioning a third track to separate the freight from RR in the Eastwick area and extending the 36 trolley to Eastwick station.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by PHL10

You have to admit though, 30 minute headways isn't bad at all. If you are unlucky, you are waiting for 29 minutes but with no forethought about when to get to the platform, the typical person will average a 15-minute wait.

Now if the headways were an hour, I'd agree with you.

I agree with this. I used to think that 30 minute headways were subpar until I did some more traveling across the US and abroad. You'll be lucky to take any form of transit from an airport to a city center, let alone a train that gets you from PHL to Center City in 20 minutes, in the US. Internationally, I was recently in London and Munich. The Elizabeth Line also has 30 minute headways (as my wife and I found out--we JUST missed it once we reached the platform area), and the S1 Bahn in Munich has 20 minute headways (though it runs 24/7, which I wish our Airport Line did).

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

Yeah I guess my main complaint is the speed from Penn Med to the bridge crossing the NEC. It feels unreasonably slow imo. The second track would be ideal.

Sorry in advance for the technical explanation.

There are two reasons why it feels slow: ARSENAL and PHIL interlockings. ARSENAL controls movement on 5 (northbound towards Penn Medicine) and 6 (southbound towards PHL) tracks, allowing trains to enter the Northeast Corridor (R1 Airport and R2 Wilmington/Newark) or the West Chester Line (R3 Media/Wawa). Outbound R1 and R2 trains have to cross over from 6 to 5 track to reach the Northeast Corridor. Sometimes these trains will be held for inbound R1, R2, and R3 trains, which all use 5 track to reach Penn Medicine.

Once a train crosses 5 track and enters the Northeast Corridor, they have to pass through PHIL. This interlocking is controlled and dispatched by Amtrak, which will occasionally hold SEPTA trains to prioritize its own. Also, the maximum authorized speed on that set of track is 30MPH. Finally, the single track from PHIL to 60th Street limits train movements, and freight movements can further complicate things.

I hope that SEPTA not only builds out a second track between PHIL and 60th Street, but also that SEPTA works out an agreement to relieve Amtrak of dispatching duties between PHIL and ARSENAL. Things would move a lot more smoothly if SEPTA controlled that entire operation.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

Sorry in advance for the technical explanation.

There are two reasons why it feels slow: ARSENAL and PHIL interlockings. ARSENAL controls movement on 5 (northbound towards Penn Medicine) and 6 (southbound towards PHL) tracks, allowing trains to enter the Northeast Corridor (R1 Airport and R2 Wilmington/Newark) or the West Chester Line (R3 Media/Wawa). Outbound R1 and R2 trains have to cross over from 6 to 5 track to reach the Northeast Corridor. Sometimes these trains will be held for inbound R1, R2, and R3 trains, which all use 5 track to reach Penn Medicine.

Once a train crosses 5 track and enters the Northeast Corridor, they have to pass through PHIL. This interlocking is controlled and dispatched by Amtrak, which will occasionally hold SEPTA trains to prioritize its own. Also, the maximum authorized speed on that set of track is 30MPH. Finally, the single track from PHIL to 60th Street limits train movements, and freight movements can further complicate things.

I hope that SEPTA not only builds out a second track between PHIL and 60th Street, but also that SEPTA works out an agreement to relieve Amtrak of dispatching duties between PHIL and ARSENAL. Things would move a lot more smoothly if SEPTA controlled that entire operation.

I love that we have a handful of SEPTA employees on here. Thank you!

[logansquare]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

I agree with this. I used to think that 30 minute headways were subpar until I did some more traveling across the US and abroad. You'll be lucky to take any form of transit from an airport to a city center, let alone a train that gets you from PHL to Center City in 20 minutes, in the US. Internationally, I was recently in London and Munich. The Elizabeth Line also has 30 minute headways (as my wife and I found out--we JUST missed it once we reached the platform area), and the S1 Bahn in Munich has 20 minute headways (though it runs 24/7, which I wish our Airport Line did).

I was just in Toronto and their train from Pearson airport to downtown Union Station ran every 15 minutes and the ride was less than 20. It was super nice. I also think it is 24 hours a day.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by logansquare

I was just in Toronto and their train from Pearson airport to downtown Union Station ran every 15 minutes and the ride was less than 20. It was super nice. I also think it is 24 hours a day.

What's the point of running a train to the airport 24X7? Unless there are delays outbound, there are generally very few flights after 10PM except for maybe a handful of international departures and early AM flights start at +/- 6 in the morning.

Airports are virtually empty in the interim hours.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Gutmann Hall on 34th seems complete. Looks great imo and a big vibe shift from the long parking lot. Nearby at 33rd and chestnut, Penn is working on the foundation for their new theater/performance space (iirc?)

Also at 2300 Market, a tiny band of facade is up, but it's honestly too small to judge currently

[Easiered]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

Gutmann Hall on 34th seems complete. Looks great imo and a big vibe shift from the long parking lot. Nearby at 33rd and chestnut, Penn is working on the foundation for their new theater/performance space (iirc?)

Also at 2300 Market, a tiny band of facade is up, but it's honestly too small to judge currently

Can we please get a photo of the foundation work of the new performance space at Penn?

[3rd&Brown]

Looks great.

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

Gutmann Hall on 34th seems complete.

Yep, and Gutmann herself helped cut the ribbon:

Celebrating the dedication of Amy Gutmann Hall

[Knight Hospitaller]

Man, how things have changed since I went to law school across the corner in the early Nineties. The other three corners were two parking lots and a field.