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kwoldtimer Nov 25, 2022 3:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JakeLRS (Post 9799275)
A flair 737-800 aircraft ran off the runway upon landing in Kitchener from Vancouver.

134 passengers all safe.

In CP24 fashion, they have a breaking news header on their website about it. Not really the publicity flair needs.

In a more economic view tho, 134 passengers on YVR-YKF during shoulder season while running 5x weekly is pretty impressive.

YXX, I think, but yes.

JakeLRS Nov 25, 2022 4:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer (Post 9799276)
YXX, I think, but yes.

Nope. Flair operates YVR-YKF.
YXX-YKF being added next summer.

Dominion301 Nov 25, 2022 5:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakelrs (Post 9799275)
a flair 737-800 aircraft ran off the runway upon landing in kitchener from vancouver.

134 passengers all safe.

In cp24 fashion, they have a breaking news header on their website about it. Not really the publicity flair needs.

In a more economic view tho, 134 passengers on yvr-ykf during shoulder season while running 5x weekly is pretty impressive.

70.9% LF. FIN 802, so one of their 800s. Doesn't look like there's any damage.

hehehe Nov 25, 2022 5:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9799391)
70.9% LF. FIN 802, so one of their 800s. Doesn't look like there's any damage.

I've heard that loads-wise Flair is doing pretty well on basically all of their domestic runs. But of course, if they're not making any money on the seats they're selling then that doesn't mean much.

CBC has an article about it now too.

Airboy Nov 25, 2022 7:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer (Post 9799276)
YXX, I think, but yes.

Some passengers were saying the plane didn't slow down and started to swerve. Could have been some slick conditions.

peytol Nov 25, 2022 8:34 PM

http://avherald.com/h?article=5018aa32&opt=0

470 feet into the grass is a really good overrun. A 7000 foot runway in a -800 is actually on the short side with any contamination, if there was standing water combined with a long landing you could easily be over your numbers.

This is old info, but a friend of mine told me that flair has run their red eye flights as turns, so the crew could have done YKF-YVR-YKF, I don't know of any other airline doing that for obvious reasons, No Idea if that is still the case though.

Arrdeeharharharbour Nov 25, 2022 9:12 PM

I want to give a positive shout out to flair for an excellent return Halifax Toronto Halifax flight last week. I couldn't ask for more for about $74.00 each way and booked on short notice too.

hollywoodcory Nov 26, 2022 6:45 PM

WS extended its schedule into winter 2023. It's mostly a carbon copy of this winter with the exception of:

YYC-CDG appears to have been extended, maybe officially going year-round?
YYC-AMS not scheduled (which implies the slots aren't as permanent as they say)

YYC-LAX appears 3x daily?

Didn't bother to look to deeply into it as changes are very likely. But nice to see CDG potentially going year-round.

zahav Nov 26, 2022 8:57 PM

Does anyone know which 777 version BA will be flying on the YVR-LGW run this summer? Based on Wikipedia, their 777s come in a big variety of configurations. But I don't believe they will have first class, and Wikipedia says there is a special LGW configuration, so assuming that's what will fly here? But not sure obv, maybe Wiki is out to lunch. Assuming it is one of the LGW configuration planes, it will either have 332 or 336 seats. And BA has up gauged YVR-LHR to a 350, originally it was scheduled to be a 777. And I believe that YVR-LHR has first class on the 777, so that means it would have either been 235 or 236 seats. And the 350 is 331, so definitely a boost to what they had a few weeks ago. Wishful thinking that I hope they up gauge it again to the 380 lol that would be amazing. Keep the daily 380 but add a 5 weekly 777 to LGW would be so good, but its unlikely. Still, moving up to the 350 is a clear sign of confidence in market, especially with them offering an LGW route as well. The only unfortunate thing is the loss of first class, there is none on the 350, just Business. Essentially now they are exactly like Air Canada, same classes. And with WS being the only other carrier, there won't be first class to London. In fact, I don't think any of the European carriers will offer first class, just business. First class seems to be getting rarer and rarer, so it is a sign of the future I guess? Even Singapore Airlines, who I always thought had super high end first class on all their long hauls, but that's not the case at all. They offer a limited amount of first class on their 777-300s, but even the A380 doesn't have first class, it has the pods. Which are super amazing, but they are only on one aircraft type. In fact, none of their new aircraft (the 787-9/-10, and the A350-900/-900ULR) have first or the pods. It is getting hard to find first class nowadays; if you have the money and want to experience what it's like, do it soon lol.

PS I have never even flown business or premium economy before lol, so it's not like I'm a class snob! I always fly normal economy, regardless of the airline. But just an interesting observation that first is dying out. Notable exception is Emirates, who maintain a first class on most of their long haul aircraft

Can YUL not expand anymore on it's existing property? I have transited through there many times from YVR to the Maritimes, so only ever done domestic. But it never seemed overly crowded or over capacity, seems to run fine and not oppresively crowded or busy. I'm assuming the comments regarding YUL being overcrowded only apply to international flights? Since that's where the biggest growth is? I see all the comments of "no room for this or that", is there something limiting YUL's current size (like a size limit?). I'm assuming they could expand the terminal and include a new lounge? Or is there something blocking any more building (or restricting it ie. the saga around new Heathrow terminals and runways?). Certainly it would be better to expand YUL and keep all airlines under one roof than start using a secondary airport? But sounds like there might some restriction on growing YUL? I'm sure noflyzone can clarify?

casper Nov 27, 2022 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9800087)
Does anyone know which 777 version BA will be flying on the YVR-LGW run this summer? Based on Wikipedia, their 777s come in a big variety of configurations. But I don't believe they will have first class, and Wikipedia says there is a special LGW configuration, so assuming that's what will fly here? But not sure obv, maybe Wiki is out to lunch. Assuming it is one of the LGW configuration planes, it will either have 332 or 336 seats. And BA has up gauged YVR-LHR to a 350, originally it was scheduled to be a 777. And I believe that YVR-LHR has first class on the 777, so that means it would have either been 235 or 236 seats. And the 350 is 331, so definitely a boost to what they had a few weeks ago. Wishful thinking that I hope they up gauge it again to the 380 lol that would be amazing. Keep the daily 380 but add a 5 weekly 777 to LGW would be so good, but its unlikely. Still, moving up to the 350 is a clear sign of confidence in market, especially with them offering an LGW route as well. The only unfortunate thing is the loss of first class, there is none on the 350, just Business. Essentially now they are exactly like Air Canada, same classes. And with WS being the only other carrier, there won't be first class to London. In fact, I don't think any of the European carriers will offer first class, just business. First class seems to be getting rarer and rarer, so it is a sign of the future I guess? Even Singapore Airlines, who I always thought had super high end first class on all their long hauls, but that's not the case at all. They offer a limited amount of first class on their 777-300s, but even the A380 doesn't have first class, it has the pods. Which are super amazing, but they are only on one aircraft type. In fact, none of their new aircraft (the 787-9/-10, and the A350-900/-900ULR) have first or the pods. It is getting hard to find first class nowadays; if you have the money and want to experience what it's like, do it soon lol.

PS I have never even flown business or premium economy before lol, so it's not like I'm a class snob! I always fly normal economy, regardless of the airline. But just an interesting observation that first is dying out. Notable exception is Emirates, who maintain a first class on most of their long haul aircraft

I have never done International First Class. In years past when it was much easier as a frequent flyer to get upgrades from Air Canada I had done International Business Class a few times. I have not been following it lately, but my understanding was BA some seasons offered first class service and other years they simply sold it as Business Class.

AC (and likely most airlines) do not oversell Business and Premium Class cabins. They do oversell economy and if they know it is a route they are not going sell the entire business class cabin a few days before the flight they will do some free upgrades for some of their frequent flyers to open up seats in economy. As well as offering the option for people to pay for an upgrade. If all that goes to plan they end up a full flight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9800087)
Can YUL not expand anymore on it's existing property? I have transited through there many times from YVR to the Maritimes, so only ever done domestic. But it never seemed overly crowded or over capacity, seems to run fine and not oppresively crowded or busy. I'm assuming the comments regarding YUL being overcrowded only apply to international flights? Since that's where the biggest growth is? I see all the comments of "no room for this or that", is there something limiting YUL's current size (like a size limit?). I'm assuming they could expand the terminal and include a new lounge? Or is there something blocking any more building (or restricting it ie. the saga around new Heathrow terminals and runways?). Certainly it would be better to expand YUL and keep all airlines under one roof than start using a secondary airport? But sounds like there might some restriction on growing YUL? I'm sure noflyzone can clarify?

Just have a look at it from google. They have the Air Canada head office and some others between the two runways. The terminal at the short end. There is likely some room to expand especially if they do major reconfigurations.

nname Nov 27, 2022 3:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9800173)
Just have a look at it from google. They have the Air Canada head office and some others between the two runways. The terminal at the short end. There is likely some room to expand especially if they do major reconfigurations.

Maybe YUL can handle more flights and passengers if the international departures and arrivals are more spread out throughout the day, instead motly concentrate on late-afternoon to evening?

thenoflyzone Nov 27, 2022 1:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 9800207)
Maybe YUL can handle more flights and passengers if the international departures and arrivals are more spread out throughout the day, instead motly concentrate on late-afternoon to evening?

AC and TS have already spread out their intl ops as much as they can. I don’t believe they can do much else. At the end of the day, you can’t depart YUL for Europe in the am or early afternoon as you’ll arrive there either late evening or in the middle of the night, both undesirable and not optimized for connections.

TS’s bulk of European runs in the summer now depart very late at night, after 10-11 pm.

AC has international arrivals that start coming in as early as 11am-noon. In fact for the noon arrival rush there is a decent amount of international flights. The only international long haul flights that now come in sooner than that are RJ from AMM (~7h30 am) and AC’s DEL and GRU flights (6am).

The rest of the international long haul arrivals are all in the early afternoon to evening and late evening hours, for obvious reasons. Times are optimized for connections in Europe.

As for sun flights, airlines already try to do 2 runs down south per day per airframe, so that implies an early morning departure (6h30-7am) and then an early afternoon departure for the second run. TS has some Caribbean runs that leave later in the morning. They can do that as their main European departure bank is late at night. AC, due to sheer economy of scale, has wiggle room as well and has some sun flights that depart at more decent hours.

thenoflyzone Nov 27, 2022 1:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9800087)

Can YUL not expand anymore on it's existing property? I have transited through there many times from YVR to the Maritimes, so only ever done domestic. But it never seemed overly crowded or over capacity, seems to run fine and not oppresively crowded or busy. I'm assuming the comments regarding YUL being overcrowded only apply to international flights? Since that's where the biggest growth is? I see all the comments of "no room for this or that", is there something limiting YUL's current size (like a size limit?). I'm assuming they could expand the terminal and include a new lounge? Or is there something blocking any more building (or restricting it ie. the saga around new Heathrow terminals and runways?). Certainly it would be better to expand YUL and keep all airlines under one roof than start using a secondary airport? But sounds like there might some restriction on growing YUL? I'm sure noflyzone can clarify?

They can expand, but as casper said, it involves a lot of reorganization, and therefore money.

https://www.admtl.com/sites/default/...y_17-05-18.pdf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicko999 (Post 9799082)
It's a serious lack of vision by ADM. YUL capacity is maybe at 25M max. After you reach that mark, you will stop your growth because there is simply not enough space at Dorval.

I agree with you that NIMBY's will never let YHU develop more than what it currently is. Hence the option of building a small terminal at YMX being only one and the best one. If not for ADM's stupidity that is.


Right now, in the current config, yes, it’s around that. 25 million might even be too much. However, if the expansion goes ahead, it will easily be able to handle much more. It’s not just about more gates though. The roadwork to access the airport needs to change as well. Yes, the REM will help ease car congestion, but because YUL is 80% O&D and only 20% connections, you will
always have a growing number of car congestion with added passenger numbers at the airport.

someone123 Nov 27, 2022 5:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour (Post 9799566)
I want to give a positive shout out to flair for an excellent return Halifax Toronto Halifax flight last week. I couldn't ask for more for about $74.00 each way and booked on short notice too.

The Toronto-Halifax connections have improved in recent years. In the 2000's if you wanted to fly to Toronto from Halifax you had to drive to the airport or book an expensive taxi and then book a flight on AC or WJ that was probably $150+ and I think the service was only to Pearson which also didn't have great connections to the rest of the city for people without a car.

Now the travel options are much better on both ends (UP express, YHZ express bus, ride sharing), the nominal ticket prices can be lower, and there's service to the island airport. For a while the Porter service was indirect (would stop in Ottawa and/or Montreal) but it looks like they do direct flights now.

Dominion301 Nov 27, 2022 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by someone123 (Post 9800381)
The Toronto-Halifax connections have improved in recent years. In the 2000's if you wanted to fly to Toronto from Halifax you had to drive to the airport or book an expensive taxi and then book a flight on AC or WJ that was probably $150+ and I think the service was only to Pearson which also didn't have great connections to the rest of the city for people without a car.

Now the travel options are much better on both ends (UP express, YHZ express bus, ride sharing), the nominal ticket prices can be lower, and there's service to the island airport. For a while the Porter service was indirect (would stop in Ottawa and/or Montreal) but it looks like they do direct flights now.

They do both nonstops (up to 3x) and the 1-stops via YOW & YUL are still there to give more options throughout the day.

thenoflyzone Nov 28, 2022 3:06 PM

Looks like FI is canceling YUL for next summer. 2 carriers was probably too much on the route, and with all the non stops to Europe from YUL, FI probably couldn't compete with AC.

Still surprised they haven't resumed YEG though.

No doubt Denscity will comment any second now on the start of the demise of international ops at YUL....

Zmonkey Nov 28, 2022 3:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9800779)
Looks like FI is canceling YUL for next summer. 2 carriers was probably too much on the route, and with all the non stops to Europe from YUL, FI probably couldn't compete with AC.

Still surprised they haven't resumed YEG though.

No doubt Denscity will comment any second now on the start of the demise of international ops at YUL....

Seems FI is looking hard at the USA, they will be offering more seats in 2023 vs 2019 in the US (although down a few locations).

If they haven't announced it yet, I doubt YEG will be back in 2023.

Zmonkey Nov 28, 2022 3:47 PM

October YMM Airport Stats (only posting since I am heading up there tomorrow).
Interesting to see recovery at the small airports in the country vs focusing on the larger ones. Also note, Flair is starting a Tuscan route this week from YMM.

Passengers 2021 2022

Total 24,615 31,813 29%
Commercial 22,490 30,764 37%
Charter 2,125 1,049 -51%

Year-to-Date 10 Month Total

Passengers 2021 2022 % Change
Total 181,836 265,260 46%
Commercial 177,678 261,054 47%
Charter 4,158 4,206 1%

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...s-Oct+2022.pdf
https://www.flyymm.com/passenger-statistics

casper Nov 28, 2022 4:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9800288)
AC and TS have already spread out their intl ops as much as they can. I don’t believe they can do much else. At the end of the day, you can’t depart YUL for Europe in the am or early afternoon as you’ll arrive there either late evening or in the middle of the night, both undesirable and not optimized for connections.

TS’s bulk of European runs in the summer now depart very late at night, after 10-11 pm.

AC has international arrivals that start coming in as early as 11am-noon. In fact for the noon arrival rush there is a decent amount of international flights. The only international long haul flights that now come in sooner than that are RJ from AMM (~7h30 am) and AC’s DEL and GRU flights (6am).

The rest of the international long haul arrivals are all in the early afternoon to evening and late evening hours, for obvious reasons. Times are optimized for connections in Europe.

As for sun flights, airlines already try to do 2 runs down south per day per airframe, so that implies an early morning departure (6h30-7am) and then an early afternoon departure for the second run. TS has some Caribbean runs that leave later in the morning. They can do that as their main European departure bank is late at night. AC, due to sheer economy of scale, has wiggle room as well and has some sun flights that depart at more decent hours.

Given AC has these longer range A321 with international business class seats on order we will have to see how this all works out. Those logically would be used from Montreal and Toronto into Western European destination that can't support the larger widebody aircraft. But if they are gate constrained in both Montreal and Toronto we will have to see what happens.

nname Nov 28, 2022 7:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9800288)
AC and TS have already spread out their intl ops as much as they can. I don’t believe they can do much else. At the end of the day, you can’t depart YUL for Europe in the am or early afternoon as you’ll arrive there either late evening or in the middle of the night, both undesirable and not optimized for connections.

TS’s bulk of European runs in the summer now depart very late at night, after 10-11 pm.

They could have more flights that depart later at night, namely 10pm to 2am.

AC seems to be very reluctant of having flight depart later than 11:30pm. If you look at YVR, the evening departure bank for AC is generally from 8pm to 11pm, while some Asian carriers will have flights depart as late as 2:30am. Before pandemic, 2nd daily CA departs 3am, and 2nd daily PR departs 4am.


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