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3rd&Brown Jun 3, 2017 3:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1487 (Post 7823222)
Philadelphia is too large and has too little population growth for it to be overwhelmed with gentrification. The lack of physical barriers in and around the city is also a factor. I don't see much indicating the areas of West Philly a few miles from UC are anywhere close to becoming hot spots for gentrification. I do think the trolley access from UC and Spruce Hill, Cedar Park, etc. is one factor. It's not really a hardship to commute along the trolley lines and those areas are relatively stable and more directly tied to the colleges. There seems to be much more going on along the trolley lines than along the El in West Philly.

I don't disagree.

But isn't that what we want in some ways? Not every neighborhood has to "gentrify". I just want neighborhoods to stabalize and be healthy.

Just 2 years ago, you could buy a relatively spacious beautiful home in Cobbs Creek for about $60K. Who does that help? When a 1,700 square foot house is $60K, although yes, you can buy into an "affordable" neighborhood, but it is very difficult, even for middle income people, to justify sinking money into a house that will never go up in value.

Thus, those neighborhoods, because of low values and in spite of appearing relatively stable, are actually on the precipice of demise.

Today, just 1.5 - 2 years later, those same houses are selling for $90-$120K. The people who own those homes see that it's safe to put some money into them and not totally lose their investment.

Also, household size is decreasing and has been for years, so even moderate population growth can have a somewhat drastic effect on the demand for dwelling units.

City Wide Jun 4, 2017 1:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown (Post 7823212)
Define near or distant?

I remember when going past 38th Street was a no go zone.

It wasn't that long ago. And I'm not that old.


Isn't it always a matter of perspective--------the view of student is fortunately different from a homeowner; for students 44th St has long seemed to be about as far as undergrads wanted to venture, but there are large parts of UC that never went that far downhill, so when people talk about the 'boom' in UC real estate they need to understand what the base line was/is.

I always thought 49th St. south of Baltimore Ave was something of a natural line, but there have been a steady uptick of purchasing and some rehabs out into the low 50's. When you have large single family houses being listed for near $1M on 48th st. I guess its to be expected that houses 4 and 5 blocks further west become very marketable.

The west Philly trolley lines really make getting into the Penn/Drexel area and CC extremely easy and fast; everything east of 40th is underground. Trolleys run about every 5 to 10 minutes in the peak hours and its usually standing room only. I used to think that the time it takes to walk to Penn would create something of a line, but with the number of people who uses bikes that line has moved west.

One other big factor is the boundaries of Penn's mortgage assistance program; it started off being around 48th & 49th but I think now its out to 56th St. in certain areas. If Penn were ever to 'sponsor' another K to 8th grade school like they did at 44th St. that would drive demand and prices way up in whatever the schools boundaries were. Presently living in the school zone adds about $100K to the value of the property. (that shows the importance of what a quality public education can mean to real estate values)

summersm343 Jun 4, 2017 5:34 PM

Will the Sports Complex Gain a Museum?

Read more here:
http://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phill...seum-of-sports

Urbanthusiat Jun 4, 2017 5:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by summersm343 (Post 7824518)
Will the Sports Complex Gain a Museum?

Read more here:
http://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phill...seum-of-sports

I am not a fan of a using the warehouse on Darien St as a location for this, unless it's just a "proof of concept" temporary location to see if there is truly demand for this sort of thing. I think a Philly sports museum could be awesome, but it would be best if it were located next to XFinity Live and not hidden from Broad Street by the Linc.

Urbanthusiat Jun 5, 2017 12:32 PM

Home is increasingly where the shopping cart is, as big retail property owners retool

Quote:

These days, visitors entering the South Philadelphia Shopping Center at 23rd Street and Oregon Avenue are greeted by the blank rear wall of a ShopRite supermarket and a defunct auto center’s empty windows.

But the strip mall’s owner, Cedar Realty Trust, has plans to replace those streetscape-deadening facades with low-rise structures featuring dwellings over ground-floor shopping in an effort to redevelop the property into a 24-hour town center for the Girard Estate neighborhood.
...
Cedar Realty Trust’s project in the Girard Estate neighborhood, meanwhile, involves the rebranding of the Quartermaster Plaza and South Philadelphia Shopping Center it owns along Oregon Avenue into a single one million-square-foot complex it is calling South Quarter Crossing, according to a presentation posted online.

Plans call for 210 dwelling units and about 27,000 square feet of office space over ground-floor retail along both sides of 23rd Street, running about a block north from Oregon, according to the presentation. The ShopRite store that stands at the intersection’s northwest corner would be relocated deeper into the complex as part of the plan.

Cedar’s chief operating officer, Robin Zeigler, said in a conference call with analysts last month that the company has begun “pre-leasing efforts” for the site, which she described as “a mixed-use redevelopment that will be unique to the South Philadelphia market.”
https://i.imgur.com/CHam8m2.jpg

From http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...html?mobi=true

1487 Jun 5, 2017 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by City Wide (Post 7824202)
Isn't it always a matter of perspective--------the view of student is fortunately different from a homeowner; for students 44th St has long seemed to be about as far as undergrads wanted to venture, but there are large parts of UC that never went that far downhill, so when people talk about the 'boom' in UC real estate they need to understand what the base line was/is.

I always thought 49th St. south of Baltimore Ave was something of a natural line, but there have been a steady uptick of purchasing and some rehabs out into the low 50's. When you have large single family houses being listed for near $1M on 48th st. I guess its to be expected that houses 4 and 5 blocks further west become very marketable.

The west Philly trolley lines really make getting into the Penn/Drexel area and CC extremely easy and fast; everything east of 40th is underground. Trolleys run about every 5 to 10 minutes in the peak hours and its usually standing room only. I used to think that the time it takes to walk to Penn would create something of a line, but with the number of people who uses bikes that line has moved west.

One other big factor is the boundaries of Penn's mortgage assistance program; it started off being around 48th & 49th but I think now its out to 56th St. in certain areas. If Penn were ever to 'sponsor' another K to 8th grade school like they did at 44th St. that would drive demand and prices way up in whatever the schools boundaries were. Presently living in the school zone adds about $100K to the value of the property. (that shows the importance of what a quality public education can mean to real estate values)

I'm totally unclear about why Penn has not done anything beyond Penn Alexander considering it's success. I know there was a lot of demand and pressure for them to expand the assistance to the next closest elementary school but they have failed to do so for whatever reason.

1487 Jun 5, 2017 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamrobk (Post 7823507)
Re: gentrification, I'm surprised the area between Fairmount/Francisville and NoLibs (ya know, the one that Google Maps calls Poplar but which I've never actually heard anyone call that IRL) hasn't gentrified much. Interestingly, because the NoLibs development trended north along the El (up to Fishtown, breaking into Port Richmond now), and development from Center City hasn't crossed 676, it seems like if that area gentrifies, it'll come from the west once Francisville fills out more in the next year or 2.

There is a lot being built north of Spring Garden and south of Fairmount Ave just east of Broad as well as in North Phila east of the rail viaduct and south of Cecil B Moore. From the viaduct you can see wood framing all over the place east of 11th street scattered around vacant lots.

McBane Jun 5, 2017 1:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1487 (Post 7824974)
I'm totally unclear about why Penn has not done anything beyond Penn Alexander considering it's success. I know there was a lot of demand and pressure for them to expand the assistance to the next closest elementary school but they have failed to do so for whatever reason.

I'm guessing that it costs Penn money and they get nothing but nice PR in return. Ultimately, they are a university and research institution, not an administrator of public schools.

Groundhog Jun 5, 2017 2:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McBane (Post 7825012)
I'm guessing that it costs Penn money and they get nothing but nice PR in return. Ultimately, they are a university and research institution, not an administrator of public schools.

They get a lot more than a boost in PR, they get a boost in property value for any land they're holding as well as a long term improvement of the nearby neighborhood, which increases the attractiveness of the school itself to both students and employees. Beyond that, if they want to attract companies to West Philly to collaborate with near campus, having strong schools and an attractive neighborhood can go a long way. There is a lot of value for Penn to invest in their immediate community in this way. I'm sure there are more benefits I'm not thinking of, but it is not just a way to get brownie points with the city.

Now the difficulty of working with the city in setting up another school and the internal political will to build another Penn Alexander is another story all together that I have no insight to, but I'd be shocked if it wouldn't be worth it in a vacuum.

Philly Fan Jun 5, 2017 3:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhog (Post 7825057)
They get a lot more than a boost in PR, they get a boost in property value for any land they're holding as well as a long term improvement of the nearby neighborhood, which increases the attractiveness of the school itself to both students and employees. Beyond that, if they want to attract companies to West Philly to collaborate with near campus, having strong schools and an attractive neighborhood can go a long way. There is a lot of value for Penn to invest in their immediate community in this way. I'm sure there are more benefits I'm not thinking of, but it is not just a way to get brownie points with the city.

Not to mention that Penn has one of the highest ranked graduate schools of education in the country (currently one of the top 3 in the US News rankings), which also provides symbiotic benefits to both Penn and any nearby Penn-sponsored/funded public school.

hammersklavier Jun 5, 2017 3:11 PM

Oooh that area as-is is really underutilized with all those ginormous strip malls. Wave of the future?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat (Post 7824971)
Home is increasingly where the shopping cart is, as big retail property owners retool



https://i.imgur.com/CHam8m2.jpg

From http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...html?mobi=true

Incidentally, leasing brochure
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1487 (Post 7824974)
I'm totally unclear about why Penn has not done anything beyond Penn Alexander considering it's success. I know there was a lot of demand and pressure for them to expand the assistance to the next closest elementary school but they have failed to do so for whatever reason.

Leadership, I suspect, has a lot to do with it. IIRC Penn Alexander was a Fry project, and Gutmann hasn't shown any real desire to expand Fry's efforts in University City (although Lea would be a great school for Penn sponsorship).

Groundhog Jun 5, 2017 3:21 PM

Quote:

Leadership, I suspect, has a lot to do with it. IIRC Penn Alexander was a Fry project, and Gutmann hasn't shown any real desire to expand Fry's efforts in University City (although Lea would be a great school for Penn sponsorship).
Makes sense. Speaking of which. I seem to remember a rumor that Drexel (under Fry) was going to follow that model of sponsoring a school. Does anyone remember this rumor and know if there's any movement on it?

Philly Fan Jun 5, 2017 3:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hammersklavier (Post 7825095)
Leadership, I suspect, has a lot to do with it. IIRC Penn Alexander was a Fry project, and Gutmann hasn't shown any real desire to expand Fry's efforts in University City (although Lea would be a great school for Penn sponsorship).

For what it's worth, Gutmann's highly touted Penn Compact includes "direct support of [local] schools"--note the plural--as one of Penn's "top priorities":

Quote:

At the local level, Penn's top priorities include direct support of schools such as Penn Alexander, which was one of just 279 public schools nationwide to be named a U.S. Blue Ribbon School for its success in closing the achievement gap.
https://president.upenn.edu/penn-compact/impact

Not to mention that she talks a great deal about "local engagement" as one of Penn's highest priorities, again for what it's worth.

shadowbat2 Jun 5, 2017 4:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat (Post 7824971)
Home is increasingly where the shopping cart is, as big retail property owners retool



https://i.imgur.com/CHam8m2.jpg

From http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...html?mobi=true

This is right by me! I kept hearing "talk" for years-both online and word of mouth-of how Shoprite was going to move to a new building (where the Dollar Tree and Post office is right now). I've seen other clues that something bigger was planned (such as Strauss/NWL space not being filled, other large vacancies etc in a supposedly booming retail area). Most recently I saw signs in the large Kid City proclaiming "GOOD NEWS! WE'RE HERE FOR ANOTHER YEAR!"

I always thought this area would be perfect for mixed use development and I am glad to see something happening. I'm just wondering if they have approval for all this, since I'm pretty sure the neighborhood backlash could be enormous (6-story buildings=Manhattan:rolleyes:)

Looking at the plans, it is still very much suburban with tons of surface parking (at least the neighbors can shut up about that). Still, this will be interesting to see developed-and I can get frequent photo updates LOL

summersm343 Jun 5, 2017 4:35 PM

That South Quarter Plaza development in Girard Estates could be a huge transformation for the area! Certainly a step in the right direction. This is the kind of development that needs to happen at the Sports Complex as well. I hope it gets off of the ground. :cheers:

1487 Jun 5, 2017 5:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McBane (Post 7825012)
I'm guessing that it costs Penn money and they get nothing but nice PR in return. Ultimately, they are a university and research institution, not an administrator of public schools.

they don't run PA or any other public school. The actual cost to them is minimal. My guess is the real reason is that enough of their high ranking staffers got in the zone and took advantage of the school and now there isn't much interest in spreading the benefit beyond that. I guess as long as the area closest to the campus got further gentrified they were happy and called it a day

1487 Jun 5, 2017 5:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhog (Post 7825107)
Makes sense. Speaking of which. I seem to remember a rumor that Drexel (under Fry) was going to follow that model of sponsoring a school. Does anyone remember this rumor and know if there's any movement on it?

Yes, they have formed a partnership with the PSD to create a school on drexel property. I'm not sure what other resources drexel contributes.

br323206 Jun 5, 2017 5:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McBane (Post 7825012)
I'm guessing that it costs Penn money and they get nothing but nice PR in return. Ultimately, they are a university and research institution, not an administrator of public schools.

They get a living lab for their students and appreciation for all of their real estate holdings in the area.

McBane Jun 5, 2017 7:33 PM

Some good feedback on my question but still, Alexander serves the immediate area around Penn's campus and so why the need to expand outside Penn's campus?

Increased property values? What's the benefit there? Penn isn't selling any land and if anything, they are buying land so increasing land value doesn't seem helpful.

All that said, Penn may want to consider enlarging the school. I understand seats are highly, highly coveted.

Quartermaster Plaza - Awesome! Girard Estates is a nice neighborhood but those two shopping centers are very dumpy. I hope it happens.

City Wide Jun 6, 2017 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1487 (Post 7825251)
they don't run PA or any other public school. The actual cost to them is minimal. My guess is the real reason is that enough of their high ranking staffers got in the zone and took advantage of the school and now there isn't much interest in spreading the benefit beyond that. I guess as long as the area closest to the campus got further gentrified they were happy and called it a day

Most of the district for the school didn't need 'gentrification', its been a stable neighborhood for a very long time. But like just about every area of the City one of the big complaints from people who were interested in staying in the neighborhood and raising a family was the whole education question. That has turned 180 degrees since the school opened. Now even if you live in the district you aren't guaranteed a spot in the school.

Although Penn hasn't turned its back on the local neighborhoods in recent years, other then their mortgage assistance program and their ongoing financial support for the UC service district (both are not small commitments!) Penn hasn't really directly engaged the neighborhoods for quite some time. UC District is really their proxy and their buffer; on a day to day level it gives them a place to direct most of their off campus concerns.

The above isn't such a bad thing though; Penn has never been very good at working with the neighborhoods. It's approach is usually the one of the rich uncle, "I know better then you do, plus anyways its my money so shut up and be thankful for anything you get". Penn has always made sure that its well known that whatever they 'give' can easily be 'taken' away.

The school was done very much in this model, but regardless, its been a big success. I don't know what the ongoing costs are so I have no idea what pocket those costs come out of, the school of education, or the general fund, or a mix of pockets. But I can most certainly say, and concerns about school age children are not my issue, having one or two more top flight K-8 public schools in the UC area, and having Penn help with that goal, would be one of the highest desires for many, many people in the area. I have new neighbors who bought their house with Penn's help and they have a school age kid and they told me that even with the income from two full time, tenured positioned jobs, (in the liberal arts fields) they couldn't afford any of the few homes that come on the market in the district. So they are in the same situation as most parents in the City. I have the sense that if the education question wasn't floating around these people are the types who could stay in their home for the next 30 years, but they just don't know how it will work out for them and their daughter.

My point in all this is if in building the school Penn was trying to primarily respond to a community need, then their success has just created a even bigger need.

I also can't help but think that this is an example of what a good normal type public school can mean to a neighborhood where the parents are engaged and involved. Every new age group that engages with the City and creates new hot areas always brings up the question of how many people will end up leaving the City because of the schools. Whatever the number is, just think what it would mean to the City if it was cut in half. Long term besides the obvious benefits of stable neighborhoods and increased tax base, I think it would create a much more favorable environment for business in the City, business both large and small


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