Lansdowne Partnership Plan Discussion

[AuxTown]

I think the only way we can have constructive discussions about the future of Lansdowne at this point is to focus the discussion on the current plan, the Lansdowne Partnership Plan (http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/lansdowne_partnership/index_en.html). This is a thread to discuss all things "Lansdowne Live" including the retail portion of the proposal, how and who is best to develop the residential units, ideas for the 'Front Lawn' along the Rideau, and how the current stadium plan can be improved. Obviously, there are many other aspects of this plan that are worth discussion and I'm sure we'll touch on them all at some point.

A few images of the current plan (from www.ottawa.ca):

http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/lansdowne_partnership/gallery/slide003_en-3.jpg

http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/lansdowne_partnership/gallery/slide001_en-2.jpg

http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/lansdowne_partnership/gallery/slide010_en-3.jpg

http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/lansdowne_partnership/gallery/slide011_en-3.jpg

http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/lansdowne_partnership/gallery/slide020_en-3.jpg

http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/lansdowne_partnership/gallery/slide016_en-3.jpg

http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/lansdowne_partnership/gallery/slide015_en-3.jpg

http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/lansdowne_partnership/gallery/slide019_en-3.jpg

http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/lansdowne_partnership/gallery/slide002_en-3.jpg

http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/lansdowne_partnership/gallery/slide006_en-3.jpg

Let's start by discussing the retail component of the plan. So far, we have heard that LCBO, Whole Foods, and Empire Theatres will be tenants. I think these are excellent anchors for the site and they will ensure at least some foot traffic on non-event days. What other retailers/restaurants would you guys and gals like to see at Lansdowne?

[danny the dog]

Might be a nice place to have Ottawa's first H&M. I don't if they have any plans to open a store somewhere else in the city, but this would be a great place I think. It would definitively help create pedestrian traffic and draw people from across the city. It's also a prestigious/remarkable location, which in my experience with H&M they like to go for, at least in Europe.

[Ottawan]

Ottawa really lacks variety in furniture retailers - I think locating some urban/modern furniture stores here would be a great complement to the antiques niche that has built up accross the bridge in Ottawa South.

[JFFournier]

May as well move this list here from the other thread:

Letters of Interest

Stage West Live Dinner Theatre
Bushtukah
Nood Furniture
Firestone Group of restaurants
Highlander Heritage Brew Pub
Gabriel’s
Cornerstone Bar & Grill
Fratelli
Whalesbone
Bier Markt
Bridgehead
Chipotle
Bark & Fritz
The Cake Shop

Targeted Tenants

Jazz clubs
Atmosphere
Mountain Equipment Co-op
Salomon
Sporting Life
New Balance
LA Fitness
The Athletic Club
Urban Barn
Pottery Barn
Pottery Barn Kids
CB2
Williams-Sonoma
Joey’s (restaurant)
Earl’s (restaurant)
Pickle Barrel (restaurant)
Moxie’s (restaurant)
Five Guys (burgers and fries)
Mhk Sushi
Cora’s (restaurant)
LCBO
Banks
Cellphone stores
Physiotherapist
Bath & Body Works
Indigo
Mastermind
H&M
Anthropologie
Olsen
Forever 21

[phil235]

Might be a nice place to have Ottawa's first H&M. I don't if they have any plans to open a store somewhere else in the city, but this would be a great place I think. It would definitively help create pedestrian traffic and draw people from across the city. It's also a prestigious/remarkable location, which in my experience with H&M they like to go for, at least in Europe.

Sadly I think the rumour is that the H&M will be in the St. Laurent expansion.

[AuxTown]

H&M would be great, but I would much rather see them anchor the new street-oriented addition to the Rideau Centre that I imagine we will be seeing in the next couple years. It would be great to see some key retailers with both openings to the mall as well as the street (a la Eaton Centre TO).

I think this would be a great spot for a new Local Heros location. I like that place, but the current building could really use an update and this location is a hundred times better (and probably more expensive). It would be a perfect place for sports fans (Sens, Rivermen (CFL), Fury (USL)....yes I am predicting the names of our new professional teams) of all kinds to congregate even on non-game days.

[AuxTown]

Sadly I think the rumour is that the H&M will be in the St. Laurent expansion.

Shit, that would be the worst. I hate St. Laurent and I don't really know why???

[KHOOLE]

Empire Theatres may not be a good business fit. The residents of the Glebe and Old Ottawa South, Old Ottawa East and surrounding areas, who would provide the walk-in business, are demographically not keen devotees of recently released USA movies. Moreover, the World Exchange, the Rideau Centre and South Keys are within 5 to 10 minutes drive, except when the games are on. Silver City isn’t that far either. It would be doubtful that people would be willing to drive and pay for underground parking when there is free parking for movies everywhere else, except at the Rideau Centre.
A much better fit would be a second GCTC Theatre like the one at the Irving Greenberg Theatre Centre in Westboro. The demographics between the two areas are similar, if not identical.
BTW O-Town Hockey, the Villa Deli was a fantastic pub across the street from Lansdowne. It closed down in 2004 and was replaced by Eco-City (pity!).

[danny the dog]

O-Town I echo your sentiment about H&M and the Rideau Centre and subsequently about H&M and St. Laurent. If the Rideau Centre were to do a street oriented expansion, H&M would be a great anchor retailer to have. Maybe they can open 2 at the same time ;)

A second Zara store would be nice, Roots might be a good fit as well.

[Ottawan]

O-Town I echo your sentiment about H&M and the Rideau Centre and subsequently about H&M and St. Laurent. If the Rideau Centre were to do a street oriented expansion, H&M would be a great anchor retailer to have. Maybe they can open 2 at the same time ;)

A second Zara store would be nice, Roots might be a good fit as well.

A bit off-topic, but with regards to the Rideau Centre, I always hoped that they would do two things in conjunction with a street oriented expansion of the Rideau Centre:

1) Remove the skywalks (heritage photos show a beautifully open view down Rideau Street from the Sappers Bridge that I feel should be reopened - and since all these buildings will ultimately be connected underground as part of the LRT Rideau station, the skywalks will ultimately become redundant)

2) The facade of the existing building could be redone to be more welcoming to the street, and to better speak to its heritage.

[lrt's friend]

What I would so dearly like to see happen as part of Lansdowne Live is to have the last remaining Ottawa streetcar that is still in Ottawa and have it restored and put on display at the Bank Street entrance of Lansdowne Park. After all, the very first streetcar ran from downtown to Lansdowne Park. What an appropriate place to put this important piece of our heritage on display and what more appropriate time to push for the completion of the restoration. Let's get it done.

[KHOOLE]

A bit off-topic, but with regards to the Rideau Centre, I always hoped that they would do two things in conjunction with a street oriented expansion of the Rideau Centre:

1) Remove the skywalks (heritage photos show a beautifully open view down Rideau Street from the Sappers Bridge that I feel should be reopened - and since all these buildings will ultimately be connected underground as part of the LRT Rideau station, the skywalks will ultimately become redundant)

2) The facade of the existing building could be redone to be more welcoming to the street, and to better speak to its heritage.

H&M is a bit too high-end for Lansdowne Park and will probably get lost in the St.Laurent jungle. Rideau Centre with the new Convention Centre, the Chateau Laurier and a more sophisticated crowd would be an ideal place.
However, Rideau Centre has to be more street friendly. Not too long ago, this street had 4 department stores (Freiman's, Caplan's, Larocque's and Ogilvy) plus 3 dime stores (Woolworth's, Kresge's and Metropolitan) all within two short blocks and all kinds of clothing, shoe and jewelry stores like People's Credit Jewelers. The Rideau Centre sucked the life out of this business integrity and streetscape. Opening up the Rideau Centre to the street would reanimate it and provide a more natural pedestrian pathway toward the By Ward Market.

[kevinbottawa]

H&M would be great, but I would much rather see them anchor the new street-oriented addition to the Rideau Centre that I imagine we will be seeing in the next couple years. It would be great to see some key retailers with both openings to the mall as well as the street (a la Eaton Centre TO).

I think this would be a great spot for a new Local Heros location. I like that place, but the current building could really use an update and this location is a hundred times better (and probably more expensive). It would be a perfect place for sports fans (Sens, Rivermen (CFL), Fury (USL)....yes I am predicting the names of our new professional teams) of all kinds to congregate even on non-game days.

The other day I was thinking about potential names for the football team and "Rivermen" came to mind. It sounds good and it reflects the city's history. I'd support that name too!

[McC]

May as well move this list here from the other thread:
Targeted Tenants
Earl’s (restaurant)


I know they're just a chain, but I'd love to be able to go to an Earls somewhere east of Calgary (as they long as they find someone to brew their beers nicely, Brick isn't doing justice to the ale that Big Rock brews for Milestones out West). This city should be screaming for more brew pubs, too, I wonder if "Highlander Heritage Brew Pub" is the same as the Highlander on Rideau (which is not a brew pub at all)?

[phil235]

Empire Theatres may not be a good business fit. The residents of the Glebe and Old Ottawa South, Old Ottawa East and surrounding areas, who would provide the walk-in business, are demographically not keen devotees of recently released USA movies. Moreover, the World Exchange, the Rideau Centre and South Keys are within 5 to 10 minutes drive, except when the games are on. Silver City isn’t that far either. It would be doubtful that people would be willing to drive and pay for underground parking when there is free parking for movies everywhere else, except at the Rideau Centre.
A much better fit would be a second GCTC Theatre like the one at the Irving Greenberg Theatre Centre in Westboro. The demographics between the two areas are similar, if not identical.
BTW O-Town Hockey, the Villa Deli was a fantastic pub across the street from Lansdowne. It closed down in 2004 and was replaced by Eco-City (pity!).

Why have you concluded that Glebe residents don't go to American movies? I've never seen any stats to support that statement. The Glebe is a pretty diverse neighbourhood. None of those theatres you mention are a) within easy walking distance or b) updated to the modern standard of theatres like Silver City.

A second GCTC is a nice idea, but I kind of doubt it's viable. The existing GCTC is already touch and go at times, and it draws from a much broader area than just Wellington-Westboro. As well, the Gladstone Theatre is already walkable for a good part of the Glebe, and it has struggled to attract patrons despite a beautiful renovation and critically acclaimed shows. Any new theatre would likely cannibalize the audiences of those theatres.

With respect to H&M, I agree that Rideau is probably a better spot. Or perhaps Sparks, if it could anchor a move to a true fashion district in that area.

[phil235]

What I would so dearly like to see happen as part of Lansdowne Live is to have the last remaining Ottawa streetcar that is still in Ottawa and have it restored and put on display at the Bank Street entrance of Lansdowne Park. After all, the very first streetcar ran from downtown to Lansdowne Park. What an appropriate place to put this important piece of our heritage on display and what more appropriate time to push for the completion of the restoration. Let's get it done.

I agree 100%. How do we push this idea?

[Ottawan]

:previous:

We could contact the volunteers who are restoring it and suggest Lansdowne to them. Also, I'm sure they'd appreciate a donation/purchase of streetcar merchandise - I think cost is a prohibiting factor in the restoration. The official website for restoring Streetcar 696 is: http://www.octranspo1.com/about-octranspo/streetcar_696

It is worth noting, though, that the current idea for the restored streetcar is to actually run track along Sparks, and then down to Lebreton flats, and have it run on special occasions.

[kevinbottawa]

Here's a blog article from today's Ottawa Sun. It says Whole Foods has been removed from the site plan on the Trinity Developments website. I wonder they are just trying to make a big splash like the writer said or if they're backing out of the project.


Whole Foods Off The Map

It appears Whole Foods has been stripped from the Lansdowne Park site plan on the website of Trinity Developments.

You’ll remember that the trendy organic grocer, according to a previous version of the plan, had secured the second level and part of the first level of a building to be constructed northwest of the stadium.

The LCBO, which is slated for the same building, and Empire Theatres remain on the map.

My best guess for why Trinity removed Whole Foods is that the grocer wants to hit Ottawa with a splash, even if the secret is already out. I don’t know that much about Whole Foods, but it seems to me an opening

of a store actually makes news, just like the opening of an Ikea or a T&T.

[gjhall]

H&M is a bit too high-end for Lansdowne Park and will probably get lost in the St.Laurent jungle. Rideau Centre with the new Convention Centre, the Chateau Laurier and a more sophisticated crowd would be an ideal place.
However, Rideau Centre has to be more street friendly. Not too long ago, this street had 4 department stores (Freiman's, Caplan's, Larocque's and Ogilvy) plus 3 dime stores (Woolworth's, Kresge's and Metropolitan) all within two short blocks and all kinds of clothing, shoe and jewelry stores like People's Credit Jewelers. The Rideau Centre sucked the life out of this business integrity and streetscape. Opening up the Rideau Centre to the street would reanimate it and provide a more natural pedestrian pathway toward the By Ward Market.

I don't understand how you could call H&M "high end." Have you ever been to one? Their raison-d'etre is disposable fashion, i.e. suits for less than $200, $9 t-shirts etc.

The first H&M store in Ottawa will be successful anywhere it opens and Lansdowne would be smart to have them on board as guarantee of people from outside the Glebe/OOS coming.

[citizen j]

Regarding the inclusion of Pottery Barn and Williams-Sonoma in that list of retailers -- the only way to get them in Ottawa is to put pressure on their head office. I had a conversation with someone at Pottery Barn here in the main store in Toronto. It was enlightening. They ship online-order merchandise from Bloor St. east to Ottawa and Montreal every day. When I asked them why they weren't in those cities already, they said that it was probably a "French thing" (they'd have to translate labels and advertising; this was the reason given for the delayed arrival of Banana Republic years ago). But even more telling was the idea that Ottawa is a small market. When I told them that there are more than 1.2 million people in Ottawa, they were quite surprised; they seemed to think Ottawa was about the same size as Quebec City and Hamilton.

Sometimes, the squeaky wheel gets the retailer. For this American company, Canada is Toronto, and maybe Vancouver and Calgary.

[K-133]

With everything that this plan has to offer. Being up high in one of those towers, overlooking the canal would make this a kick bum place to live!

[Acajack]

When I asked them why they weren't in those cities already, they said that it was probably a "French thing" (they'd have to translate labels and advertising; this was the reason given for the delayed arrival of Banana Republic years ago).

Montreal I get of course, but I am surprised the "French thing" is a barrier to setting up shop in Ottawa. Most U.S. retailers that open up in Ottawa do so in English only. There is no (legal at least) language requirement difference between Toronto and Ottawa.

[ThaLoveDocta]

Montreal I get of course, but I am surprised the "French thing" is a barrier to setting up shop in Ottawa. Most U.S. retailers that open up in Ottawa do so in English only. There is no (legal at least) language requirement difference between Toronto and Ottawa.

Are you sure about that?
Why is all our street/highway signage bilingual, when Toronto's is not?

[DarkArconio]

Probably because our municipal government is bilingual, while I think all provincial road signs are bilingual. Only Quebec is able to sustain laws through the non-withstanding clause of the charter forcing all businesses to have everything in french.

[Mille Sabords]

Regarding the inclusion of Pottery Barn and Williams-Sonoma in that list of retailers -- the only way to get them in Ottawa is to put pressure on their head office. I had a conversation with someone at Pottery Barn here in the main store in Toronto. It was enlightening. They ship online-order merchandise from Bloor St. east to Ottawa and Montreal every day. When I asked them why they weren't in those cities already, they said that it was probably a "French thing" (they'd have to translate labels and advertising; this was the reason given for the delayed arrival of Banana Republic years ago). But even more telling was the idea that Ottawa is a small market. When I told them that there are more than 1.2 million people in Ottawa, they were quite surprised; they seemed to think Ottawa was about the same size as Quebec City and Hamilton.

Sometimes, the squeaky wheel gets the retailer. For this American company, Canada is Toronto, and maybe Vancouver and Calgary.

Very true. I had a similar conversation with Restoration Hardware people and got basically the same response. Yet, there's another chain that would do well in Ottawa, with the number of older homes that people love restoring here.

As for H&M, that chain is no big deal. In time there will be 5 or 6 of them here. They'll be looking for places like Lansdowne. What I heard is that they want to start with a downtown store (Rideau Centre) and then roll out.

[RTWAP]

Empire Theatres may not be a good business fit. The residents of the Glebe and Old Ottawa South, Old Ottawa East and surrounding areas, who would provide the walk-in business, are demographically not keen devotees of recently released USA movies. Moreover, the World Exchange, the Rideau Centre and South Keys are within 5 to 10 minutes drive, except when the games are on. Silver City isn’t that far either. It would be doubtful that people would be willing to drive and pay for underground parking when there is free parking for movies everywhere else, except at the Rideau Centre.

I think a first-run theatre with a few screens would do well. What that area is lacking is a theatre that is up to modern standards, and is walkable from the other sights and ambiance. South Keys and Silver City have negative ambiance. Rideau Centre is OK if you want to shop afterwards, but it's a bit of a walk to get to anything lively.

If Lansdowne has a couple of nice restaurants, a couple of lively sports bars, an art gallery and some other interesting things to see or do then it will be move than just a place to see a movie. Dinner and a movie, or a movie and sophisticated night-life would be attractive for that neighbourhood. Depending on the mix of tenants, it might end up developing into the anchor for a third night-life area (or fourth if you count Preston).

Maybe we'll get to the point where people make plans to "go to Lansdowne" or the Glebe, they way they make plans to go to "the market" or "Elgin Street".

[Luker]

Good point, but on a second thought; would glebeites even be in favor of that? Heh :shrug:

[Davis137]

Thanks for starting a thread that is a discussion of what's already in place/on the table, and that IS Lansdowne Live. I think that this project is a step in the right direction, for many reasons, and most of what's been discussed in this thread so far, has been an indicator of that. There's no reason Lansdowne can't be a successfull entertainment and retail hub for the city, while having lavish gardens and parkspace around it. If people are really concerned, the retail portions could be deisgned like an old town square on the lower levels, have a water fountain of sorts, and go from there. Have the buildings have a Facade on them like 90 George...

[KHOOLE]

Thanks for starting a thread that is a discussion of what's already in place/on the table, and that IS Lansdowne Live. I think that this project is a step in the right direction, for many reasons, and most of what's been discussed in this thread so far, has been an indicator of that. There's no reason Lansdowne can't be a successfull entertainment and retail hub for the city, while having lavish gardens and parkspace around it. If people are really concerned, the retail portions could be deisgned like an old town square on the lower levels, have a water fountain of sorts, and go from there. Have the buildings have a Facade on them like 90 George...

The comments found so far on this thread have more to do with business and social wish lists than reality.

The J.C.Williams Consultants Group of a few years ago gave a rosy picture of the potential Lansdowne Live clientele as being an elite group with a high disposable income and it recommended boutique stores and specialty enterprises. This Toronto consulting business that caters mostly to shopping centres throughout North America did not seem to understand the mentality of an average-income middle-class society that lives in an older part of the city by choice and not by necessity. There are no slums in Ottawa – just older neighbourhoods and newer neighbourhoods. There are very few blue-collar workers either. Most of the limited disposable income comes from government and government-related jobs. The jobs are secure, people can afford a family and its education, seniors have a pension and singles have a better-than-average disposable income. A few guys are rich, some are poor somewhat, Life is good.

Retail and restaurant businesses, that survive solely by exchanging their goods for money and make a reasonable profit, ask themselves four basic questions before going into new ventures: who, what, when and how much?. They have to know who their potential customers are, their tastes and income, where they live, what they need (or be convinced to need), when they will spend their money, morning, afternoon and night, and how much will it cost to make them part with their money.

Obviously, the OSEG and especially the John Ruddy people are having a hard time getting their sales pitch across. It has now been years that the Lansdowne Live project has been on the table and there is no evidence that anyone is breaking the doors down. Time will tell. They may have to lower the rent so much that it will no longer make much sense business-wise.

Hope for the best. Lively bars would be nice. Don’t forget that the Villa Deli starved to death.

[phil235]

Hope for the best. Lively bars would be nice. Don’t forget that the Villa Deli starved to death.

Didn't the Villa Deli sell out to condo developers?

[KHOOLE]

Didn't the Villa Deli sell out to condo developers?

Don't know for sure. What came first?. Did they sell out because they couldn't survive or did the Eco-Cite developers buy because it was up for grabs?

[phil235]

Don't know for sure. What came first?. Did they sell out because they couldn't survive or did the Eco-Cite developers buy because it was up for grabs?

I thought it was open pretty much up to the point where Eco Cite was supposed to start contstruction. Though as I recall, there were some pretty significant delays from the outset, which didn't bode well for the future of that development.

[AuxTown]

I thought it was open pretty much up to the point where Eco Cite was supposed to start contstruction. Though as I recall, there were some pretty significant delays from the outset, which didn't bode well for the future of that development.

Eco Cite leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. It is an amazing location with some of the most beautiful views in the city including the Rideau Canal on one side and the DT skyline on the other. Yet, for some reason, the condos didn't sell well. I feel like the developers just completely missed their mark with the demographic they tried to sell to and the economic crisis probably didn't help either. Let's hope that residential at Lansdowne will sell a bit better. Though, we only have to look as far as the Vancouver Olympic village to see beautiful condos in a prime location going unsold.

[Acajack]

Are you sure about that?
Why is all our street/highway signage bilingual, when Toronto's is not?

The City of Ottawa chooses to make its street signage bilingual, and the Province of Ontario has chosen to make its highway signage bilingual in certain areas of the province (including Ottawa).

Neither of these decisions has any bearing on the language of business signs in Ottawa, Toronto, etc. And to be quite honest, the vast majority (probably upwards of 90%) of business signs in Ottawa are in English only. Even in so-called francophone areas in the east end like Vanier and Orleans, signs are mostly in English only and those few with some French on them are the exception, not the rule.

[Acajack]

Probably because our municipal government is bilingual, while I think all provincial road signs are bilingual. Only Quebec is able to sustain laws through the non-withstanding clause of the charter forcing all businesses to have everything in french.

The current law in Quebec with respect to the language of commercial signs is not "protected" by the notwithstanding clause and has been consistent with direction in Supreme Court ruling from around 1993.

As for the notwithstanding clause itself, it can be used by any province (and even the federal government). It is not a privilege that only Quebec has.

Other provinces have used it as well over the years: Alberta on gay marriage, Saskatchewan on labour issues, etc.

[phil235]

Eco Cite leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. It is an amazing location with some of the most beautiful views in the city including the Rideau Canal on one side and the DT skyline on the other. Yet, for some reason, the condos didn't sell well. I feel like the developers just completely missed their mark with the demographic they tried to sell to and the economic crisis probably didn't help either. Let's hope that residential at Lansdowne will sell a bit better. Though, we only have to look as far as the Vancouver Olympic village to see beautiful condos in a prime location going unsold.

If something goes unsold, it's all about pricing in my view. If the project isn't selling, the prices are too high.

As I understand it, the Eco Cite condos initially sold well, but delays in construction caused some buyers to back out. Then when the project ultimately went under, the lending bank decided to tear up the existing purchase agreements and re-offer the condos to purchasers at substantially higher prices. They didn't get many takers, so the place is basically empty. A huge strategic blunder by the bank. Once it was largely unsold, it became a much bigger gamble to buy into the building as there are very few owners to cover common/capital costs. Not exactly sure what has happened since, but I think it remains pretty much empty.

There is a great children's bookstore on ground level that did follow through on their agreement to buy their space. Based on a chat that I had with one of the owners, they are quite eager to see Lansdowne go up and bring more foot traffic to the area.

As for Lansdowne, I think the condos will be a considerably lower price point, which is a good thing. You certainly want a mix of people in there.

[DarkArconio]

The current law in Quebec with respect to the language of commercial signs is not "protected" by the notwithstanding clause and has been consistent with direction in Supreme Court ruling from around 1993.

As for the notwithstanding clause itself, it can be used by any province (and even the federal government). It is not a privilege that only Quebec has.

Other provinces have used it as well over the years: Alberta on gay marriage, Saskatchewan on labour issues, etc.

I may be wrong about commercial signage in Quebec, though I sure didn't mean to bash Quebec or imply they are privileged in some way.

I only meant that Quebec has the political motivation to renew language laws every four years. My other point was that a municipal gov't could not invoke the not-withstanding clause.

[Acajack]

I may be wrong about commercial signage in Quebec, though I sure didn't mean to bash Quebec or imply they are privileged in some way.

I only meant that Quebec has the political motivation to renew language laws every four years. My other point was that a municipal gov't could not invoke the not-withstanding clause.

No worries. I actually agree with most everything you said. Although Quebec doesn't have to renew the notwithstanding every couple of years anymore since the current sign laws do not require it and are consistent with the Charter and Constitution (according to the Supreme Court).

[Radster]

I could see an H&M here. The thing with H&M is that just because they open one up at Rideau or St-Laurent, it doesn't mean that Lansdowne can't get one, as each H&M caters to a different clientele, this is why some shopping centres in MTL have 2 H&Ms, or even Ste-Catherine has 2 within a couple blocks, as some H&Ms have more contemporary stuff, or clothes for children and women, while others have male clothes and casual women's attire etc...

I would also like to see Simons added to the list of potential Lansdowne tenants, I heard they are thinking of expanding into the Ottawa/Gatineau area, so this could be a potential location, as Simons guaranteer constant foot traffic, even moreso than H&M I think.


I also have a question on the existing North Side stands - Why is there a drop of about 10 feet from the first row to the pitch? It seems like they could add a good 3-5 rows of seating there. Maybe its not possible for football, but perhaps something to consider for soccer, maybe to install temporary seating for soccer there, kind of like they do in arenas for NBA? Being close to the action is very important in soccer, many of the new soccer stadiums have seating coming right onto the pitch, with a mere 6 feet from the out-line to the 1st row of seating.

[lrt's friend]

I also have a question on the existing North Side stands - Why is there a drop of about 10 feet from the first row to the pitch? It seems like they could add a good 3-5 rows of seating there. Maybe its not possible for football, but perhaps something to consider for soccer, maybe to install temporary seating for soccer there, kind of like they do in arenas for NBA? Being close to the action is very important in soccer, many of the new soccer stadiums have seating coming right onto the pitch, with a mere 6 feet from the out-line to the 1st row of seating.

During the latter part of the Rough Rider era, there was additional seating where you suggested.

[c_speed3108]

I also have a question on the existing North Side stands - Why is there a drop of about 10 feet from the first row to the pitch? It seems like they could add a good 3-5 rows of seating there. Maybe its not possible for football, but perhaps something to consider for soccer, maybe to install temporary seating for soccer there, kind of like they do in arenas for NBA? Being close to the action is very important in soccer, many of the new soccer stadiums have seating coming right onto the pitch, with a mere 6 feet from the out-line to the 1st row of seating.


"Temporary" bleachers were added along there for the 1988 Grey Cup game, with three gaps where the Civic Centre fire exits are. The same was done on the south side with one or two gaps to allow for locker room access.

After the Grey Cup the temporary seats on the south side were removed along with the endzone seats. The seats along the North side remained until the turf was replaced prior to the francophone games.

For the 2004 Grey Cup, seats were added again in front of the North and South stands. This time the presence of fire exits was ignored so the seats over the exits were only there for a short time around the game.

The temporary seating - particularly when it was on both sides made the bench areas very tight.

This video shows the 1988 Grey Cup in an abbreviated forum. If you keep you mouse on the pause button there is some shots of the setup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy0FRcSKleQ


Likewise here is a highlight from the 2004 Cup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CtzRUFtGA4

[alecz_dad]

Unfortunately the City gave up its opportunity to give stronger direction as to the ultimate scale and form of the development when it gave the developers a virtual carte blanche, without the City continuing the process to determine what people actually think should be there.

OSEG has provided a site plan with a lot of rather banal Barry Hobin box architecture, and broad strokes about what will be on the site. I don't see them changing from those cheap and fascistic boxes to some cheerful retro town square any time soon.

And it seems every time you turn around the plans change. Densities increase, the total square footage climbs, the towers gain storeys, the parking access ramp in the middle of Bank Street disappears so there will be hundreds more cars and delivery trucks a day trying to turn left into Lansdowne across Bank St., the proposed greenspace gets more and more carved up by roads and turnarounds, and the Farmers' Market shrinks.

Although there were many pretty pictures provided about what will be in the park section, there is virtually no money allocated to that part of the project right now, it will be the last section to be started, and I would not be at all surprised that after a year of operating the mall, OSEG will turn around and say:
"You know, maybe we did overestimate how many people would take the bus here, and underestimated the amount of parking that would be required, so we're going to have to have more paved or grasspaved parking, y'alright?" And what will the City say then? No? Not likely, the mall and some of the condos and offices will already be a fait accompli.

If people are really concerned, the retail portions could be deisgned like an old town square on the lower levels, have a water fountain of sorts, and go from there. Have the buildings have a Facade on them like 90 George...

[alecz_dad]

I do know that at least one of the other businesses that was listed by OSEG this spring as having signed a letter-of-intent -- Bridgehead Coffeehouses -- will definitely NOT be at Lansdowne.

Owner, Tracey Clark has said "We are not planning to join the lansdowne project." Further, that "We share many concerns about the project and have shared w the developers our circumspection about prospects for commercial activity there."

I would be curious to know how many of the other businesses that OSEG had down as prospects actually have real plans to sign up at Lansdowne?

Here's a blog article from today's Ottawa Sun. It says Whole Foods has been removed from the site plan on the Trinity Developments website. I wonder they are just trying to make a big splash like the writer said or if they're backing out of the project.

[reidjr]

I do know that at least one of the other businesses that was listed by OSEG this spring as having signed a letter-of-intent -- Bridgehead Coffeehouses -- will definitely NOT be at Lansdowne.

Owner, Tracey Clark has said "We are not planning to join the lansdowne project." Further, that "We share many concerns about the project and have shared w the developers our circumspection about prospects for commercial activity there."

I would be curious to know how many of the other businesses that OSEG had down as prospects actually have real plans to sign up at Lansdowne?

My fear is some are backing out because maybe they have been contacted by some aginst oseg and say if they are part of the project they will boycott there store or resturant.

[c_speed3108]

I do know that at least one of the other businesses that was listed by OSEG this spring as having signed a letter-of-intent -- Bridgehead Coffeehouses -- will definitely NOT be at Lansdowne.

Owner, Tracey Clark has said "We are not planning to join the lansdowne project." Further, that "We share many concerns about the project and have shared w the developers our circumspection about prospects for commercial activity there."


Given that they already have a location in the area that is on Bank street rather than tucked into the development, I can't see why they would want another or to move. Probably it would be a better fit for one of their competitors.

All those lists of prospects are just that. Until people sign on the dotted line you can't really say much about who might move in...aside from the answer of "whomever is willing to step up and rent the space"

Given that that area of bank doesn't have a ton of vacancies there should be demand. Also many non-traditional main street retailers are becoming more attracted to downtown locations. For example I read the other day that Dollarama is going to be opening on Elgin.

The other thing all this really comes down to is what types of businesses people want to support. An example of this is the rare bookstore that is moving from the Glebe to the market. As the owner more less said: Everyone in the neighbourhood here loves us, except when it comes to actually buyng anything

[K-133]

I do know that at least one of the other businesses that was listed by OSEG this spring as having signed a letter-of-intent -- Bridgehead Coffeehouses -- will definitely NOT be at Lansdowne.

Owner, Tracey Clark has said "We are not planning to join the lansdowne project." Further, that "We share many concerns about the project and have shared w the developers our circumspection about prospects for commercial activity there."


I don't think that this should come as a surprise.

[alecz_dad]

I imagine that in their sales pitches OSEG will not be playing up the strong criticism there has been of the project, and the strong animosity among neighbouring residents, the support of whom will presumably be important to getting new businesses through their first few years at Lansodwne.

Sounds like there is a need for fuller disclosure to prospective tenants about the challenges they might encounter as tenants at Lansdowne.

My fear is some are backing out because maybe they have been contacted by some aginst oseg and say if they are part of the project they will boycott there store or resturant.

[alecz_dad]

Bridgehead said they were interested in the proposed focus on local businesses, but it would seem that as it became apparent the degree of opposition there was to the development, and the fact that really it looks more and more like any other old mall, that they lost interest.

You're right that the proof is when tenants do sign. But will it be Dollarama? I thought that a big part of the sales job to win over Council was that Lansdowne would have a unique mix of distinctive, and local retailers. So far, it sounds like it will be like any other old mall, with glossier finishes.

I'm sad to see Patrick McGahern books is closing its store in the Glebe. It's the last of several used book stores that used to operate in the Glebe. I don't know if it's so much that the local community didn't support the store, or even that a lack of foot traffic was to blame. Rather it's more that it's the type of store that is increasingly moving almost exclusively online. Increasingly bookstores also just don't have enough sales per sq.ft. to justify storefront locations.

Despite inroads by chain stores in the Glebe, there are still a great many independently owned and operated local stores there. In addition to stores that find their place there for the long-term, the Glebe has also served as an incubator for other local businesses.
However, given the rents that a large commerical property developer like Trinity normally demands, I doubt that the Lansdowne shopping centre will really have that much space for small, local businesses.
Instead, it may serve as an opportunity for the City to subsidize chain stores to undercut local businesses and to drive more traffic through the neighbourhood, without any great benefit for existing businesses.


Given that they already have a location in the area that is on Bank street rather than tucked into the development, I can't see why they would want another or to move. Probably it would be a better fit for one of their competitors.

All those lists of prospects are just that. Until people sign on the dotted line you can't really say much about who might move in...aside from the answer of "whomever is willing to step up and rent the space"

Given that that area of bank doesn't have a ton of vacancies there should be demand. Also many non-traditional main street retailers are becoming more attracted to downtown locations. For example I read the other day that Dollarama is going to be opening on Elgin.

The other thing all this really comes down to is what types of businesses people want to support. An example of this is the rare bookstore that is moving from the Glebe to the market. As the owner more less said: Everyone in the neighbourhood here loves us, except when it comes to actually buyng anything

[matty14]

I imagine that in their sales pitches OSEG will not be playing up the strong criticism there has been of the project, and the strong animosity among neighbouring residents, the support of whom will presumably be important to getting new businesses through their first few years at Lansodwne.

Sounds like there is a need for fuller disclosure to prospective tenants about the challenges they might encounter as tenants at Lansdowne.

I think it's a bit of a generalization to say that there has been "strong criticism" of this project. You are assuming that the very vocal minority against the project speak for everybody because they are the loudest. The city as a whole is more or less in favour of the project.

I think (and this could be speculative, I'm not a business major or anything) that a major part of the business plan for the retail portion of the proposal is to draw consumers in from other parts of the city. I imagine that Glebe residents only account for a small piece of the business plan.

[alecz_dad]

I think you hit the nail on the head when you say "more or less in favour." The former Mayor and his developer pals masterfully (and their high-priced PR agency) framed the process as being "anything is better than what's there now." That plus the promise of the return for CFL football to Ottawa, made it easy for people outside of the immediate area to say "well, I guess it's OK... what do I care , it's not next door to me."

But I think apart from the very local concerns of neighbouring residents, people in other parts of the City have swallowed this line without any real debate about: why City ratepayers are paying the whole shot for re-building the stadium when the private sector partners involved are worth billions of dollars?, why is this project being permitted to dedicate property taxes flowing from the commercial project exclusively to financing the public debt?, why are we building a major new sports/commercial/office/residential development somewhere that there is extremely limited public transportation, and which already experiences frequent gridlock?, etc.

The business plan may well be based on drawing customers from a wider area, but the reality is that to maintain many of these businesses day-to-day, especially during the winter, when there are no events at the stadium, they will have to rely disproportionately on local customers.

Generally, the closer you are to a business, the more likely you are to frequent it. I also think that the emphasis on higher-end retailers assumes that there will be considerable custom from the wore affluent residents of adjacent neighbourhoods. However, there is so much bad blood about how this project was put through, that I know there will be considerable resistance to frequenting busineses in the Lansdowne mall among neighbouring residents. No sensible businessperson wants to start out with many people who are actively opposed to your presence, and might indeed organize a boycott of those businesses.

I think it's a bit of a generalization to say that there has been "strong criticism" of this project. You are assuming that the very vocal minority against the project speak for everybody because they are the loudest. The city as a whole is more or less in favour of the project.

I think (and this could be speculative, I'm not a business major or anything) that a major part of the business plan for the retail portion of the proposal is to draw consumers in from other parts of the city. I imagine that Glebe residents only account for a small piece of the business plan.

[reidjr]

Real debate what are you talking about this has been going on fore about 20 years now this is nothing new we have had so many real debates its getting sick..There has been countless debates for so many years now its getting old.Cities helping build arenas or stadiums is nothing new it happens .As for a stronger direction the fact is we need a stadium and arena and most agree with that its just where should it be.As for what people want a fair amount want a stadium and arena its not like not many want a stadium and arena.Lets not act like were just now starting to look at what do do to landsdown park as i said this has been going on for 20 years.

[reidjr]

I imagine that in their sales pitches OSEG will not be playing up the strong criticism there has been of the project, and the strong animosity among neighbouring residents, the support of whom will presumably be important to getting new businesses through their first few years at Lansodwne.

Sounds like there is a need for fuller disclosure to prospective tenants about the challenges they might encounter as tenants at Lansdowne.

I would not say there is strong criticism yes some are aginst it but for the most part alot are infavor of it.

[kwoldtimer]

Why do I feel that this thread is going the way of its predecessor? :yuck:

[lrt's friend]

There should be some rules for this thread. This should be about what we want assuming Lansdowne Live's final approval. After all, this is almost 100% guaranteed. In other words, our comments should be positive. If we want something negative, create another thread, "Why Lansdowne Live will fail".

Frankly, it is sickening listening to the same negative arguments 500 times. It is also sad when the possibility of business boycotts are being brought up in order to encourage failure. I think the Glebe will end up being the big loser in the long-term. This will surely scare away the local or most unique retailers wanted the most.

I personally tried to be creative by bringing up the streetcar restoration as part of the plan. You see the same naysayers will simply never support me on such a thing.

I have seen this hyper-negative attitude before and it seems deeply rooted in the Glebe. These attitudes shamelessly killed the Windmill project which was an enormous slap in the face to the Dutch Canadian community and the Botanical Gardens project which would have opened up and beautified a virtually unused portion of the Experimental Farm.

I am frankly fed up with these sour pusses who poo poo every idea that will enhance this city.

Let's hear something positive for a change.

[danny the dog]

:previous:
Absolutely agreed!

People, before you engage in arbitrary carpet bomb criticisms of Lansdowne Live on the sole basis that this was the latest thread to mention the word "Lansdowne"; please at least make it look like you took the effort to inform yourself on what "debates" have already taken place and were subsequently regurgitated a couple dozen times by people who didn't bother to look. It would be a bit less insulting to the intelligence of the people who actually care about what Lansdowne Park could look like.

Debate is great, not trying to stop it, but it is taking place somewhere else.

[kwoldtimer]

.....
I have seen this hyper-negative attitude before and it seems deeply rooted in the Glebe. These attitudes shamelessly killed the Windmill project which was an enormous slap in the face to the Dutch Canadian community and the Botanical Gardens project which would have opened up and beautified a virtually unused portion of the Experimental Farm.

I am frankly fed up with these sour pusses who poo poo every idea that will enhance this city.

Let's hear something positive for a change.

To be fair, I don't think you can blame Glebites for the Botanical Gardens (which I still hope to see someday!)

[lrt's friend]

To be fair, I don't think you can blame Glebites for the Botanical Gardens (which I still hope to see someday!)

You may be right, but I had some involvement around the periphery of Botanical Gardens project (I knew a number of the people involved) and I have no doubt that many of the opponents lived in surrounding neighbourhoods, which includes the Glebe. Protecting dog walking in parts rarely used for that purpose was a top priority. I also remember one particular lady who was quoted repeatedly about protecting a historical landscape. Since there had been attempts to establish a botanical gardens on a number of occasions over the entire history of the farm, I had a hard time understanding this argument. Objections to a butterfly conservatory in an empty field was crazy when it is known that they are great tourist attractions and wonderful for kids. Then the Disneyland remarks were over the top. When does a real botanical gardens ever resemble Disneyland?

I recall an empassioned speech (totally unprepared) made by a member of the public criticizing the position of the President of the Friends of the Farm for blocking attempts to establish the gardens. To be fair, the Friends of the Farm do a lot of good work but their official position at that time appeared more about power and an unwillingness to share the implementation of ideas with another group.

Sadly, most of the proponents of the Botanical Gardens have got too frustrated and moved on. I would say the possibility of a botanical gardens in Ottawa within the next 25 years is 0%. The previous experience has sapped all the energy from anybody seriously interested.

[kwoldtimer]

Sigh - another good example then of why, when it comes to City of Ottawa, "we can't have nice things". :(

[Merganser]

Organizing a boycott of Lansdowne business', will accomplish what exactly?

My wife is hoping for some mid to high end women's retail, Zara and MNG. As long as there is a decent Sportsbar or brewpub I'll be happy. Or I'll hit one of the other's in the Glebe.

Part of me dreads but at the same time relishes the images being broadcast worldwide as OSEG opponents chain themselves to bulldozers as Lansdowne development commences, a decaying stadium and asphalt lurking in the background. Should I laugh or cry?

[KHOOLE]

Merganser:
The legal proceedings against the City of Ottawa by a number of Ottawa taxpayers that is scheduled to be heard by the Ontario Superior Court in April does not address the City’s negligence in taking good care of its stadium nor removal of a concrete surface that was meant for a former tenant, the Central Canada Exhibition Association.
The application of the Friends of Lansdowne to the Ontario Superior Court contends that the City acted unlawfully by approving a scheme without competitive bids or otherwise complying with its own bylaws and by failing to meet the standard of good faith required of municipal governments.
This is a state of affairs that is of concern to all Canadians since it addresses the responsibility that all governments, whether federal, provincial or municipal (this involves also agencies such as police forces) have to respect its laws and regulations for the protection and betterment of the citizens that chose them as their representatives.

This isn’t about football, a stadium, a cinema theatre or an overly tall building beside a World Heritage canal. It’s about honesty in municipal governance.

[blackjagger]

Merganser:
The legal proceedings against the City of Ottawa by a number of Ottawa taxpayers that is scheduled to be heard by the Ontario Superior Court in April does not address the City’s negligence in taking good care of its stadium nor removal of a concrete surface that was meant for a former tenant, the Central Canada Exhibition Association.
The application of the Friends of Lansdowne to the Ontario Superior Court contends that the City acted unlawfully by approving a scheme without competitive bids or otherwise complying with its own bylaws and by failing to meet the standard of good faith required of municipal governments.
This is a state of affairs that is of concern to all Canadians since it addresses the responsibility that all governments, whether federal, provincial or municipal (this involves also agencies such as police forces) have to respect its laws and regulations for the protection and betterment of the citizens that chose them as their representatives.

This isn’t about football, a stadium, a cinema theatre or an overly tall building beside a World Heritage canal. It’s about honesty in municipal governance.

Drinking the KhOOLe-aid again eh?

[lrt's friend]

Merganser:
The legal proceedings against the City of Ottawa by a number of Ottawa taxpayers that is scheduled to be heard by the Ontario Superior Court in April does not address the City’s negligence in taking good care of its stadium nor removal of a concrete surface that was meant for a former tenant, the Central Canada Exhibition Association.
The application of the Friends of Lansdowne to the Ontario Superior Court contends that the City acted unlawfully by approving a scheme without competitive bids or otherwise complying with its own bylaws and by failing to meet the standard of good faith required of municipal governments.
This is a state of affairs that is of concern to all Canadians since it addresses the responsibility that all governments, whether federal, provincial or municipal (this involves also agencies such as police forces) have to respect its laws and regulations for the protection and betterment of the citizens that chose them as their representatives.

This isn’t about football, a stadium, a cinema theatre or an overly tall building beside a World Heritage canal. It’s about honesty in municipal governance.

It is also about legal technicalities and obstruction of democracy. Let's face it, the Friends of Lansdowne are not acting in this manner in an honourable way to preserve 'honesty in municipal governance'. On the contrary, they are doing this simply to overturn a democratic decision made by City Council to serve their own purposes. Sorry, I call them as I see them.

[Merganser]

Merganser:
The legal proceedings against the City of Ottawa by a number of Ottawa taxpayers that is scheduled to be heard by the Ontario Superior Court in April does not address the City’s negligence in taking good care of its stadium nor removal of a concrete surface that was meant for a former tenant, the Central Canada Exhibition Association.
The application of the Friends of Lansdowne to the Ontario Superior Court contends that the City acted unlawfully by approving a scheme without competitive bids or otherwise complying with its own bylaws and by failing to meet the standard of good faith required of municipal governments.
This is a state of affairs that is of concern to all Canadians since it addresses the responsibility that all governments, whether federal, provincial or municipal (this involves also agencies such as police forces) have to respect its laws and regulations for the protection and betterment of the citizens that chose them as their representatives.

This isn’t about football, a stadium, a cinema theatre or an overly tall building beside a World Heritage canal. It’s about honesty in municipal governance.

I wasn't referring to the legal challenges, I was reflecting on the boycott threat. That opponents would stoop to such lengths (assuming they were unsuccessful with the legal challenges), to actually boycott business' at or affiliated with Lansdowne, in another attempt to stop development is very sad.

[phil235]

As was pointed out before, this is a thread for discussing the actual plan, not rehashing old arguments about process. As someone who was sucked into that pointless endeavour on the previous thread, believe me, it's not worth it.

Please don't respond to those from the Friends of Lansdowne who just can't seem to respect the fact that we don't want their opinion shoved down our throats at every opportunity.

[Davis137]

I agree. I want to see this project move forward. Life, much like progress...moves on.

[kwoldtimer]

Not to belabour, but one could respond to the point about it "not being about a too tall building next to a World Heritage canal" - a backdoor advocacy argument the premise of which I reject, but at least it relates to a design element of the plan.

[kevinbottawa]

Perhaps this thread should be renamed "Friends of the Lansdowne Partnership".

[Ottawan]

Perhaps this thread should be renamed "Friends of the Lansdowne Partnership".

I think this is truly unfair criticism. If you read the three other threads (the original Lansdowne revitalization, the Lansdown Conservancy, and the "Official" Lansdowne revitalization threat), you will see how truly open to debate we have all been with regards to this plan - but open to debate on the merits. We have even debated at length every single argument of the Friends of Lansdowne types. No one has dismissed them as not being worthy of respectful debate.

However, we wish for a space for constructive debate regarding the plan that is going forward. If there were new points of criticism, I'm sure we would all welcome them (even in this new, cleaner thread). However, if someone simply wishes to overwhelm constructive debate by rehashing the same old points, that is welcome.

I do not see our situation (open to constructive debate, wherein if you're paying attention many of us have different views, some even opposed to the plan or aspects of it but constructively so) as at all being analogous to the short-sighted, self-interested, and closed one-sided views of the Friends of Lansdowne.

[AuxTown]

I was really hoping this thread would be a place for focused and productive conversations and debates relating to the Lansdowne Partnership Plan. Obviously, I was wrong. :( I've even been avoiding my own thread lately.

[K-133]

I was really hoping this thread would be a place for focused and productive conversations and debates relating to the Lansdowne Partnership Plan. Obviously, I was wrong. :( I've even been avoiding my own thread lately.

The moment you acknowledge it, is the moment you validate its right to be here.

Carry forth the discussion and the noise will soon enough quiet.

[lrt's friend]

I look so forward to when construction begins and all the noice ends.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I look so forward to when construction begins and all the noice ends.


Sadly, even if construction starts, there will STILL be noise...

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

The "Friends" legal challenge will accomplish one thing. It will confirm City Council's right to do do what they did with the OSEG proposal.

Earlier this year City Council approved the sole sourced purchase of 150 million dollars of New Flyer buses. Where is the legal challenge to the sole sourcing of that deal? There is not any because it is not a NIMBY issue.. Alex Cullen championed the bus purchase as he knew that City council can sole source. Clive Doucet supported the sole sourced bus deal.

On a senior level , the feds are spending billions of dollars for the sole -sourced F-35 fighter.

That a court is going to overturn City Council's decision is a very slim hope. The court decsion will confirm their right to sole source, and ironically, act as an encouragement for them to do it again.

Another outcome of the "Friends' challenge is that it will transfer a chunk of money into the pockets of some happy lawyers, representing both sides of the issue.

[Luker]

Coincidentally, those same lawyers live in the Glebe :shrug:

[reidjr]

The "Friends" legal challenge will accomplish one thing. It will confirm City Council's right to do do what they did with the OSEG proposal.

Earlier this year City Council approved the sole sourced purchase of 150 million dollars of New Flyer buses. Where is the legal challenge to the sole sourcing of that deal? There is not any because it is not a NIMBY issue.. Alex Cullen championed the bus purchase as he knew that City council can sole source. Clive Doucet supported the sole sourced bus deal.

On a senior level , the feds are spending billions of dollars for the sole -sourced F-35 fighter.

That a court is going to overturn City Council's decision is a very slim hope. The court decsion will confirm their right to sole source, and ironically, act as an encouragement for them to do it again.

Another outcome of the "Friends' challenge is that it will transfer a chunk of money into the pockets of some happy lawyers, representing both sides of the issue.

While i don't agree with there stance on this i think there open a huge can of worms with this legal challenge.If they win the probleam is one would think that would mean all deals would have to be looked at meaning the bus deal even the congress centre etc.

[lrt's friend]

While i don't agree with there stance on this i think there open a huge can of worms with this legal challenge.If they win the probleam is one would think that would mean all deals would have to be looked at meaning the bus deal even the congress centre etc.

Well, let's hope that the courts will see the implications of their decision. Many times, the city can only get the best deal based on timely decisions. In the case of the bus deal, sole sourcing made sense. A competitive bidding process would have been pointless as an attractive opportunity would have been lost. Lansdowne Park would never be strictly a competitive bidding process because design elements and planning decisions would dictate that the lowest price would not necessarily win. I could never really understand the logic behind the argument that the lowest price must win in this case. Besides, there are timeliness issues here and special opportunities concerning the stadium tenant that must be considered.

If the Friends of Lansdowne were to win, this could set a precedent that not only affects Ottawa, but every municipality. As demonstrated by the bus contract, it could negatively impact the taxpayer if sole sourcing is deemed illegal.

[kwoldtimer]

I am pretty confident that any court decision on this would be limited to the specific facts of the Landsdowne case but it makes more sense to wait and see before commenting on outcomes.

[reidjr]

I am pretty confident that any court decision on this would be limited to the specific facts of the Landsdowne case but it makes more sense to wait and see before commenting on outcomes.

The issue is if they were to rule this deal illegal that would open the door for all deals to be looked at.

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

am pretty confident that any court decision on this would be limited to the specific facts of the Landsdowne case but it makes more sense to wait and see before commenting on outcomes.

Actually , I expect the defence to intoduce documents of other sole sourcing contracts entered into by the City of Ottawa, as well as by other cities and senior governments, as well as the legal opinions that were sought at the time that indicated that it was legal for them to do so. The defence lawyers will want to show the court that there is a lot of precedence, and that none of them were over turned on a legal challenge.

[kwoldtimer]

.

Actually , I expect the defence to intoduce documents of other sole sourcing contracts entered into by the City of Ottawa, as well as by other cities and senior governments, as well as the legal opinions that were sought at the time that indicated that it was legal for them to do so. The defence lawyers will want to show the court that there is a lot of precedence, and that none of them were over turned on a legal challenge.

Indeed, but what I was thinking was that the challenge would need to relate to the very specific circumstances of Landsdowne, probably beginning with the decision to stop the design competition. I don't think there could be any succesful challenge of sole sourcing per se, since it is fairly common and the City has a policy on it.

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

Indeed, but what I was thinking was that the challenge would need to relate to the very specific circumstances of Landsdowne, probably beginning with the decision to stop the design competition

That would be a very weak argument as tenders are often recalled by governments and canceled..As an example , the city recently put out a tender for an economic impact study for the LRT project. A few days later the tender was cancelled,

In fact contracts are even canceled, as Ottawa did with the original LRT Siemens contract.Of course there are penalties to be paid if a signed contract is cancelled.

Ottawa did re-instate a design competition for the urban park portion of the Lansdowne project. Tenders will be called for construction of the retail/residential portion. A committee looked at design proposals for the refurbished stadium.

If cancellation of the original design competition is the basis of the "Friends" legal challenge it will be an easy victory by the defence.

[JFFournier]

Went to a Sens on Friday night and was reminded that, if possible, I would love to see the Ottawa Sports Hall of Fame be provided with a little space of their own at Lansdowne.

The current wall of plaques at Scotiabank Place is one thing, but it would be sharp if it could be worked into the stadium as (I believe) they do at Ivor Wynne in Hamilton.

[ThaLoveDocta]

The "Friends" legal challenge will accomplish one thing. It will confirm City Council's right to do do what they did with the OSEG proposal.

Earlier this year City Council approved the sole sourced purchase of 150 million dollars of New Flyer buses. Where is the legal challenge to the sole sourcing of that deal? There is not any because it is not a NIMBY issue.. Alex Cullen championed the bus purchase as he knew that City council can sole source. Clive Doucet supported the sole sourced bus deal.

On a senior level , the feds are spending billions of dollars for the sole -sourced F-35 fighter.

That a court is going to overturn City Council's decision is a very slim hope. The court decsion will confirm their right to sole source, and ironically, act as an encouragement for them to do it again.

Another outcome of the "Friends' challenge is that it will transfer a chunk of money into the pockets of some happy lawyers, representing both sides of the issue.


Thats kind of a tough issue, because those F-35's aren't really sole sourced. We just didn't hold the competition ourselves. it was held on our behalf, by a conglomerate of nations with the goal of savings through quantity of scale.
Back to topic though, I agree with the point you're making.

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

OSEG wants to argue its case
By JON WILLING, City Hall Bureau

Last Updated: December 16, 2010 4:38pm

The Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group's plans to redevelop Lansdowne Park are being challenged in court. The three stakeholders in an application to quash the Lansdowne Park redevelopment are expected to meet in court Friday for the first time.

The Friends of Lansdowne are asking the court to cancel the project because the city didn’t have an open competition for the deal.

The city believes its deal with the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group is legal.

The Friends’ application only names the city, but OSEG also wants to be a party to the case.

OSEG on Friday is expected to argue why it should be named as a respondent to the application.

“OSEG has a commercial interest in the subject matter of the application and will be definitely impacted by its outcome,” according to the business group’s court documents, which were filed last week.

The Friends, in their own court documents filed this week, argue OSEG’s participation “will be of little assistance to the court.”

The community group originally hoped to consent to OSEG’s participation, only if the OSEG agreed to not seek costs against the Friends through the court.

“OSEG has a very real concern about the outcome of the application and costs should be available to it,” the business group says in its court filing.

In arguing for the rewarding of costs, OSEG says “there will be no break on the limits to which the (Friends) can go in furtherance of their goal” if the court doesn’t allow it.

Meanwhile, the city is taking no position on whether or not OSEG should be a participant on the legal challenge.

The Friends are expected to ask for an adjournment Friday.

Time could be a factor in this case since the city and OSEG were anticipating shovels in the ground by next June.

The redevelopment calls for a refurbished Frank Clair Stadium to host a Canadian Football League franchise, in addition to retail space, an urban park, offices and residences.

The city is paying $129.3 million for the stadium and parking, plus $54 million for the urban park.

OSEG is paying $98.8 million for the retail-related elements.

Everything is expected to be built by June 2013.

It won’t be until next April that the Friends will appear in court to argue why the redevelopment shouldn’t happen.

jon.willing@sunmedia.ca

LEBLEBLEBLEB

[reidjr]

Uh there was a open competition with very little interest this case by the friends of landsdown seems to be grasping at straws now.

[KHOOLE]

LEBLEBLEBLEB

This thread was started on Dec 1 by O-Town Hockey to discuss the merits of the proposed OSEG plans for Lansdowne Park. He reiterated his intentions on Dec 10. We should respect his intentions and desire.
However, Mike aka LeadingEdge Boomer, you seem to want to do Friends of Lansdowne bashing all the time all over the place. I would suggest that you stay on Ken Gray's Blog site so that appropriate and relevant discussions can take place. I favour the Friends' arguments and the impending court case but this is not the place to discuss them. This thread has much merit but your biased interventions makes it insignificant.

[umbria27]

Uh there was a open competition with very little interest this case by the friends of landsdown seems to be grasping at straws now.

Claiming that there was a competition is a little disingenuous. The competition was canceled well before the submission stage. It got as far as soliciting public input, but not as far as stating the requirements and call for bids. There's no basis for claiming there was little interest, because bidders never got a chance to express interest.
It was reported in the Citizen that OSEG refused to participate in the competition and their proposal was contingent on its cancellation.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Claiming that there was a competition is a little disingenuous. The competition was canceled well before the submission stage. It got as far as soliciting public input, but not as far as stating the requirements and call for bids. There's no basis for claiming there was little interest, because bidders never got a chance to express interest.
It was reported in the Citizen that OSEG refused to participate in the competition and their proposal was contingent on its cancellation.

Then I ask you this question; Where is the interest now? If there was interest from some companies, then why haven't we heard from them? There's been nothing. Not even a "hey, you should've kept it open because we might've been interested".

[reidjr]

Claiming that there was a competition is a little disingenuous. The competition was canceled well before the submission stage. It got as far as soliciting public input, but not as far as stating the requirements and call for bids. There's no basis for claiming there was little interest, because bidders never got a chance to express interest.
It was reported in the Citizen that OSEG refused to participate in the competition and their proposal was contingent on its cancellation.

Yes they did have there chance to bid not just the last time but many times over the past 20 years.As for beeing little interest as i recall yes there was very very little interest.

[lrt's friend]

The Friends of Lansdowne's own actions in the courts are actually going to make Lansdowne Park less attractive for competitive bidding. Any private company will know that if the Friends don't like the proposal in every respect, they will tie everything up in court.

[reidjr]

The Friends of Lansdowne's own actions in the courts are actually going to make Lansdowne Park less attractive for competitive bidding. Any private company will know that if the Friends don't like the proposal in every respect, they will tie everything up in court.

Thats the issue no group is going to say hey i am going to be bashed left and right and get taken to court.

[umbria27]

Yes they did have there chance to bid not just the last time but many times over the past 20 years.As for beeing little interest as i recall yes there was very very little interest.

Now you are saying something different. Initially you claimed there was an open competition. There clearly wasn't.
You've revised your statement to say that other bidders had opportunity to submit an unsolicited bid at any time in the last 20 years. I suppose that is true, but it's hardly relevant to the lawsuit, which claims there should have been a competition. Their point is valid and hardly "clutching at straws."

Then I ask you this question; Where is the interest now? If there was interest from some companies, then why haven't we heard from them? There's been nothing. Not even a "hey, you should've kept it open because we might've been interested".

What would be the point to expressing interest now? OSEG was granted exclusive negotiation rights.

The Friends of Lansdowne's own actions in the courts are actually going to make Lansdowne Park less attractive for competitive bidding. Any private company will know that if the Friends don't like the proposal in every respect, they will tie everything up in court.

That's a bit of convoluted logic. There is no opportunity for other bidders now. It could hardly become less attractive. If the Friends Of win and the city is forced to re-open the competition, they at least have a chance.
Yes, there's likely to be opposition to any development at Lansdowne. That's normal for any high value public/private partnership. That's a good reason to hold a competition, so that there's no opportunity for a legal challenge like this.

Listen guys, I know that the consensus on this board is that OSEG's proposal is the best possible and any objection to it is sheer reactionary nimbyism, but the reactions to the opposing view here sometimes is as instinctive and reflexive as the nimbyism you decry. These aren't the comment boards of the Ottawa Citizen. I would hope that we can be a little more reasoned.

[reidjr]

There was a open competition not only once but around 2 other times over the past 20 years.

[lrt's friend]

That's a bit of convoluted logic. There is no opportunity for other bidders now. It could hardly become less attractive. If the Friends Of win and the city is forced to re-open the competition, they at least have a chance.
Yes, there's likely to be opposition to any development at Lansdowne. That's normal for any high value public/private partnership. That's a good reason to hold a competition, so that there's no opportunity for a legal challenge like this.

We all know that there will be other legal challenges. Others have predicted this for years for any renovation of Lansdowne Park. The question, why bother participating in a design competition unless the participants are being paid for their work?

[umbria27]

There was a open competition not only once but around 2 other times over the past 20 years.

I don't think that's true. To my knowledge there has been only one competition. That was held back in 1996. Candarel "won" that, but their proposal wasn't supported by council. As a result, Candarel had first right of refusal on the land for 10 years ending in 2008, which is when the last competition was initiated. As we all know that competition was canceled before the invitation to bid went out and OSEG was given exclusive negotiation rights.
To say that there has been lots of opportunity to submit a bid is wrong. Since 1996 then, there has been no real opportunity to submit a proposal. It has either been:
a. locked up by Candarel's first right of refusal
b. in a consultation phase, pending a request for bids that never occurred
c. locked up by OSEG with exclusive negotiation rights

We all know that there will be other legal challenges. Others have predicted this for years for any renovation of Lansdowne Park. The question, why bother participating in a design competition unless the participants are being paid for their work?

Developers bother to submit to design competitions because the reward is the right to develop. They submit proposals knowing the risks (the biggest being that they might lose the competition) because those rights to develop can be lucrative.
They don't submit if another developer has exclusive rights to the site. Nor do they submit in the early stages of a competition before the requirements and bid conditions have been set. They would be fools to do so.

[Ottawan]

Listen guys, I know that the consensus on this board is that OSEG's proposal is the best possible and any objection to it is sheer reactionary nimbyism, but the reactions to the opposing view here sometimes is as instinctive and reflexive as the nimbyism you decry. These aren't the comment boards of the Ottawa Citizen. I would hope that we can be a little more reasoned.

This is a very selective reading of this message board. I think there has been some very good critical debate and disagreements on a wide variety of issues, including: about what form the urban park should take, whether it was a good idea to remove the footbridge & other features, what the scale and form of the retail should be (remember the criticism of the original design that didn't conform to the street grid?), the size and potential expansion/appropriateness of the stadium, methods to improve transit access (remember the discussion about water taxis?), and the list goes on.

No one has said that OSEG is the 'bess possible', nor has anyone said that 'any opposing view ... reflexive nimbyism'. However, many of us feel that this is, despite any flaws, a [I]good proposal, and far superior to the status quo, and to what we fear would occur were it not to go forward. We do not decry any and all opposition as nimbyism, particularly where the critic makes a good point. We do however decry reflexive nimbyism (which is exactly and inarguably what the Friends are doing) when we see it.

[reidjr]

I don't think that's true. To my knowledge there has been only one competition. That was held back in 1996. Candarel "won" that, but their proposal wasn't supported by council. As a result, Candarel had first right of refusal on the land for 10 years ending in 2008, which is when the last competition was initiated. As we all know that competition was canceled before the invitation to bid went out and OSEG was given exclusive negotiation rights.
To say that there has been lots of opportunity to submit a bid is wrong. Since 1996 then, there has been no real opportunity to submit a proposal. It has either been:
a. locked up by Candarel's first right of refusal
b. in a consultation phase, pending a request for bids that never occurred
c. locked up by OSEG with exclusive negotiation rights



Developers bother to submit to design competitions because the reward is the right to develop. They submit proposals knowing the risks (the biggest being that they might lose the competition) because those rights to develop can be lucrative.
They don't submit if another developer has exclusive rights to the site. Nor do they submit in the early stages of a competition before the requirements and bid conditions have been set. They would be fools to do so.

Yes it is true there was one 10 years ago there was even a winner but for what ever reason council did not like it.Then there was another one in 1996 same thing winner but council was not happy.Yes there has been lots of chances for any group to make a bid yet its been few and far between.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

NoWhat would be the point to expressing interest now? OSEG was granted exclusive negotiation rights.


The point I was trying to make was that even in light of the exclusivity, companies still would've brought forward some form of interest in order to try and get the competition opened again and have their bid be considered.

There wasn't a word from developers before or after the competition was announced.

[umbria27]

Yes it is true there was one 10 years ago there was even a winner but for what ever reason council did not like it.Then there was another one in 1996 same thing winner but council was not happy.Yes there has been lots of chances for any group to make a bid yet its been few and far between.

No, you are counting the same competition twice. A process was launched in 1996. Candarel, Canadian Gateway and PCL bid. Candarel won and had first right of refusal for ten years from 1998-2008.

Here's a 2007 Ottawa Citizen article summarizing the history:
http://www2.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/observer/story.html?id=ad33dfaf-f223-4cf2-97d6-7e1c547de11e

So there was one competition 14 years ago. For most of the intervening years the site has been locked up by one exclusive agreement or another. At the beginning of this discussion you accused the Friends Of of grasping at straws. One competition 14 years ago is a mighty slim straw if you are claiming "lots of chances to bid."

[JFFournier]

Umbria, thanks for the link. I had tried to find some information about that design competition but came up largely empty. Unless I'm reading right through it though, I see nothing about a 10-year right of first refusal. Were you getting that from that specific article?

Ironically, I didn't find something about that design competition in the Glebe Report some time ago. The writer, someone involved in the project at the time, IIRC, said that their conclusion was that the process was flawed. It sounds an awful lot like the process that now will be guarantee best results, apparently.