Lansdowne Park Revitalization | N/A | N/A | Proposed

[Kitchissippi]

Well now that it looks like we're going to get a major stadium nowhere near rapid transit, the issue shifts to how do we kludge and force some kind of higher grade transit into Lansdowne.

My suggestion:

Take the future Carling LRT line and instead of sending it downtown send it along the Queen Elizabeth Driveway (make it look like a European tramway, complete with rails set in cobbles), past Lansdowne and then across and under the Canal, under Clegg to surface at St. Paul's University and then across a new Rideau River bridge to come into Hurdman. From there it can go down, say, the Hospital corridor. Another option would be to keep it on the Driveway all the way into downtown.

I had a similar suggestion way back (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=3379549&postcount=805)

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

The latest...


"Big, noisy concerts?!"

Good God, have our councillors ever set foot in other cities? It's like our council is completely clueless.

[ajldub]

They missed the boat on the international competition... and putting an aquarium in one of the City's few heritage buildings is just dumb. Lansdowne will be ok, but it missed its chance at being spectacular.

[ottawatraffic]

Lansdowne would have been not much more if a design competition was undertaken.

The whole premise for the competition was for the "right to develop" Practically speaking, the Civic Centre was going to stay, you have a half a football stadium and you need the minimum parking that was already there.

[lrt's friend]

This whole business about rapid transit at Lansdowne is one big red herring. If this was such a big concern, why was this not a bigger factor in developing our transit plan? Did we forget where Lansdowne is and what it has been used for as a major community gathering place? It is not as if this is a new idea coming out of the blue. Lansdowne has been there for well over 100 years. If rapid transit was needed for Lansdowne, it should have been included in the recently developed plan. I have said it before, the new transit plan was just a bunch of compromises that was designed to get enough political support rather than really addressing our long-term transportation needs. The lack of service to Lansdowne is just a symptom of that.

[YOWetal]

http://wwuploads.googlepages.com/LansdowneLiveVote.jpg

Interesting voting pattern. Finally the suburban votes outnumbering downtown leads to a good decision.

[lrt's friend]

I laughed when I read the article that appeared in yesterday's Ottawa Citizen opposing a stadium at Lansdowne Park from a resident of the Glebe. He presented an argument that the transportation network to Scotiabank Place was so much better, then argued that all our festivals be located at Lansdowne Park. I really don't know how this would improve the location. Would we just have a big open field so that temporary stages would be put up from time to time throughout the summer? Isn't there some enormous crowds for certain festival events? How do we move them in and out without rapid transit? What about the noise factor from these festivals? It seems to me that having more outdoor events with loud music would still upset many Glebe residents. After reading the article, it just seemed that the writer was trying to find any excuse for getting rid of the stadium, and I wouldn't be surprised that if we were to follow his idea that when reality set in, that he would not be so enthusiatic for turning Lansdowne into a empty field for festivals. Of course, maybe he just hates sports and prefers music. That is not a good reason for making this choice.

[Radster]

With some imagination, transit improvements can be incorporated into the new Lansdowne Live plan.

Parking - During the stadium renovations, dig up the field, and build a huge multi-level underground parking area, then rebuild the field on top, and voila, parking is solved. Only tricky part will be figuring out where the entrance/exit portals should be located. People also forget that many people park in the surrounding streets, or just walk.

Public Transit - It has worked ok in the past during big events at Lansdowne. With some imagination, this can be improved. Set aside a small portion of land for a transit loop. Another idea would be to reinstate a streetcar service on Bank street, which could include a loop and waiting area for streetcars onsite, which would be used only during big events at Lansdowne (already done in some cities). Heck, if the South Stands need a complete rebuild, then why not make a transit loop/waiting area underground? Sure it would be more costly, but it has been done in other cities.

Basically, my point is that with some imagination and international engineers/planners, parking and transit could be improved at Lansdowne. But even the status quo, is not as bad as most make it out to be.

[lrt's friend]

With some imagination, transit improvements can be incorporated into the new Lansdowne Live plan.

Parking - During the stadium renovations, dig up the field, and build a huge multi-level underground parking area, then rebuild the field on top, and voila, parking is solved. Only tricky part will be figuring out where the entrance/exit portals should be located. People also forget that many people park in the surrounding streets, or just walk.

Public Transit - It has worked ok in the past during big events at Lansdowne. With some imagination, this can be improved. Set aside a small portion of land for a transit loop. Another idea would be to reinstate a streetcar service on Bank street, which could include a loop and waiting area for streetcars onsite, which would be used only during big events at Lansdowne (already done in some cities). Heck, if the South Stands need a complete rebuild, then why not make a transit loop/waiting area underground? Sure it would be more costly, but it has been done in other cities.

Basically, my point is that with some imagination and international engineers/planners, parking and transit could be improved at Lansdowne. But even the status quo, is not as bad as most make it out to be.

We just have to remember where our very first electric streetcar went, downtown to Lansdowne Park! About the transit loop, what do you think the street behind Abbotsford House was for, it was the original streetcar loop! That is why that block just west of Bank at Lansdowne is so long and narrow. The streetcars would line up there during the Exhibition. Of course, we need something more modern, but streetcars along Queen Elizabeth Driveway could link downtown with Landsdowne and Dow's Lake and the future N-S LRT and Carling LRT. We already run buses along there for Winterlude and the Tulip Festival and buses used it for the last Grey Cup.

[Dado]

They missed the boat on the international competition... and putting an aquarium in one of the City's few heritage buildings is just dumb. Lansdowne will be ok, but it missed its chance at being spectacular.

I think that was what really turned me against Lansdowne Live. Putting an aquarium in a heritage building? To me it just shouted disrespect - disrespect to the Aberdeen Pavilion and disrespect to the idea of an aquarium by putting it in a building entirely unsuited for it. An aquarium building should look like something designed by Douglas Cardinal to convey an image of fluidity. The entire Lansdowne Live proposal should have been shut down there and then for lacking in seriousness. One can almost imagine the conversation:

"Ok, we've got the stadium, the arena, the condos and the stores. We've even got a little parkland and a reflecting pool. Now we just need some cultural thing to throw in to make it palatable to the public and Council."
"How about an aquarium? Ottawa doesn't have one and it gets mentionned every now and then."
"Good idea! It even fits with the watery theme of the Canal. But where are we going to put it?"
"Well there's that space occupied by the Aberdeen Pavilion that we're not doing anything else with."
"Yes, but it's a heritage building so we can't knock it down."
"It's pretty big though. We could put the aquarium inside it."
"Ok, we'll do that. Add it to the presentation."
"We'll need some images for that."
"Here, I've got some aquarium images from 1980s. Use these."

[Dado]

I had a similar suggestion way back (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=3379549&postcount=805)
So you did... though I'd keep it on the northeast bank of Dow's Lake.

It would be good for Tulip Festival tourism and for Winterlude too (that's why I also had the idea of extending it to downtown - but what to do with it once it gets to Laurier or thereabouts is the problem). Not that it's likely to ever happen, of course.

[TransitZilla]

This whole business about rapid transit at Lansdowne is one big red herring.

Agreed. It's laughable that the Kanata location was being described as having "better transit access" just because it's along a Transitway corridor that won't be built for at least 20 years.

Forget that the location is at the far west end of town and everyone needs to head east at the end of the game, wheras at a central location like Lansdowne, people will head in different directions.

Forget that there are zero buses to Scotiabank Place during the day, versus 2 routes that go right by Lansdowne.

It's ridiculous. Lansdowne will have a higher transit model share than Scotiabank Place, whether it is on a rapid transit line or not.

[ajldub]

I think that was what really turned me against Lansdowne Live. Putting an aquarium in a heritage building? To me it just shouted disrespect - disrespect to the Aberdeen Pavilion and disrespect to the idea of an aquarium by putting it in a building entirely unsuited for it. An aquarium building should look like something designed by Douglas Cardinal to convey an image of fluidity. The entire Lansdowne Live proposal should have been shut down there and then for lacking in seriousness. One can almost imagine the conversation:

"Ok, we've got the stadium, the arena, the condos and the stores. We've even got a little parkland and a reflecting pool. Now we just need some cultural thing to throw in to make it palatable to the public and Council."
"How about an aquarium? Ottawa doesn't have one and it gets mentionned every now and then."
"Good idea! It even fits with the watery theme of the Canal. But where are we going to put it?"
"Well there's that space occupied by the Aberdeen Pavilion that we're not doing anything else with."
"Yes, but it's a heritage building so we can't knock it down."
"It's pretty big though. We could put the aquarium inside it."
"Ok, we'll do that. Add it to the presentation."
"We'll need some images for that."
"Here, I've got some aquarium images from 1980s. Use these."

Totally. An aquarium needs a modern building, no question. Aberdeen would be a great building for an Ottawa Art Gallery, or a Museum of the City of Ottawa could be put in there with the Bytown Museum's collection as the nucleus...

[osbort]

Not only is Aberdeen Pavillion the wrong building for an aquarium, I think it is wrong to waste money building an aquarium at all. Just because Ottawa doesn't have an aquarium already does not mean that people are going to go to it or even be remotely interested in going to it

[waterloowarrior]

found this in the citizen's online comments
http://i42.tinypic.com/25f3pr5.png

[harls]

They could've at least spelled the name of the place correctly..

[jcollins]

Interesting way of looking at it. I hadnt thought of it like that.

[phil235]

Shouldn't they at least include the time period being discussed and include the revenue from leasing the land to OSEG during that time? And what of current maintenance costs for the park? There needs to be a point of reference for this analysis to make any sense.

The whole principle of Lansdowne Live is that it will be revenue neutral to the city. The stream of revenue from the lease payments will offset the improvements to the stadium. Admittedly I haven't seen the numbers, but that principle makes sense to me. The value of the guaranteed revenue stream over 30 years would be the equivalent to the upfront investment in the park. In fact, if it is revenue neutral as claimed and the city wanted to operate like a business, the city could sell the revenue stream for current value of the improvements to the stadium, and receive the money to invest in the stadium upfront.

That's why I have trouble with the claims that the city is spending $150 million on this project. The number sounds big, but you need to compare that against current expenses - the $4 million per year that the city is spending to maintain the project and take that over 30 years. You also need to add in the revenue to be generated by the project - it is not simply an outlay of $150 million.

[k2p]

Folks like Doucet and the pampered Glebe-ites really take the cake. For alleged lefties, they are elitists. They don't like sports, and, come to think of it, mixed income housing. Imagine the furor if someone dared put social housing on that parking lot at Bank & Fifth. Anyway, Wellington Village long surpassed the Glebe as Ottawa's urban neighbourhood of choice...thanks mainly to thinking like theirs.

If Ottawa embraced public spaces as a matter of course, they might have a better point. But it doesn't. The answer to every issue is the same: less density, more parks, another study, and another year of unfulfilled promise.

Since we know the city is incapable of building lively public space, what's wrong with giving a private group 60 days to see if they can?

[Davis137]

Nobody held a gun to people's heads and told them to move to the Glebe, knowing what's in the neighbourhood, and what's coming...

[Mille Sabords]

That map is dishonest. The city will get tax revenues from the new commercial buildings. And from leases paid by sports teams for both Frank Clair and the Civic Centre.

They also forget: having Ottawa on the pro sports map of North America: Burden: OSEG, Benefit: City.

A hot-potato issue like this brings out the worse in people, and you can see it in this type of map that distorts facts and paints a sky-is-falling picture.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I hate the mentality in this city that everything needs to be studied to death, that something's too expensive, or that the city doesn't need it.

While Ottawa definitely has some good things going for it, If you look at ALL other national capitals in the world, you will find truly impressive cities. Canada, is one of the richest countries in the world, both culturally and economically. You'd think we could have a truly stunning Capital. Just look at cities like Washington D.C., London, Paris, Berlin, Tokyo, Moscow, Beijing, Seoul, New Delhi, Copehagen, Amsterdam, Rome, Stockholm, Athens... Frig, the list goes on. Why does Ottawa have this pathetic mentality.

[lrt's friend]

I hate the mentality in this city that everything needs to be studied to death, that something's too expensive, or that the city doesn't need it.

While Ottawa definitely has some good things going for it, If you look at ALL other national capitals in the world, you will find truly impressive cities. Canada, is one of the richest countries in the world, both culturally and economically. You'd think we could have a truly stunning Capital. Just look at cities like Washington D.C., London, Paris, Berlin, Tokyo, Moscow, Beijing, Seoul, New Delhi, Copehagen, Amsterdam, Rome, Stockholm, Athens... Frig, the list goes on. Why does Ottawa have this pathetic mentality.

Don't you know, we want parks everywhere. Every time a building needs to come down, we need another park. Parks are easy, especially if they are nothing but some grass, a few trees and a sports field. If its not a park, then we need more big box stores with endless parking lots, a park for cars and shoppers. Anything else, we object until its gone. Remember the Windmill Project, the Botanical Gardens, the Concert Hall? Let's keep adding to the list of good ideas that smart Ottawans objected to for a million different reasons. We love to find reasons to whine about everything creative that someone else has thought of. Its all the retired bureaucrats with big pensions, who have the time and money to exercise their bureaucratic skills in retirement by complaining and obstructing every public improvement project. After all, what we don't spend on public improvements, can be better invested in sewer repairs and pothole patching. Core civic services! The rest is an unnecessary luxury. A bland city for a bland mentality.

[eemy]

I hate the mentality in this city that everything needs to be studied to death, that something's too expensive, or that the city doesn't need it.

While Ottawa definitely has some good things going for it, If you look at ALL other national capitals in the world, you will find truly impressive cities. Canada, is one of the richest countries in the world, both culturally and economically. You'd think we could have a truly stunning Capital. Just look at cities like Washington D.C., London, Paris, Berlin, Tokyo, Moscow, Beijing, Seoul, New Delhi, Copehagen, Amsterdam, Rome, Stockholm, Athens... Frig, the list goes on. Why does Ottawa have this pathetic mentality.

No offense, but it's hardly fair to compare Ottawa to any of those cities. This city has been a capital for just over 150 years now and a settlement for not much longer. A more apt comparison would be to a city like Canberra, or Wellington.

[spotlight]

No offense, but it's hardly fair to compare Ottawa to any of those cities. This city has been a capital for just over 150 years now and a settlement for not much longer. A more apt comparison would be to a city like Canberra, or Wellington.

NO offense, but it's comments like these that make Ottawa what it is today.. just because we are younger than the other cities the other poster mentioned doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to be like them..

If we compare ourselves to cities like Canberra, Wellington, Brasilia etc.. Ottawa will continue to be in trouble when it comes to city planning and development.

we as a city, as a country and as citizens need to stop thinking small, thinking that we can't achieve more. (i'm not specifically targeting you with this last comment) but rather the (what seems to be) general population of Ottawa.. and it's especially geared towards our city governance.

with the bluesfest lineup announced now.. The countdown has started for the start of bluesfest and the start of the noise complaints !!

[YOWflier]

A more apt comparison would be to a city like Canberra, or Wellington.I was in Canberra not 4 months ago. In comparing Ottawa to Canberra I'm going to suggest that you've never been there and know very little about it.

I criticize Ottawa with the best of them, but it has very little in common with Canberra and is vastly superior as a city and capital in every imaginable way.

Canberra is pleasant, and has some nice attractions (their War Memorial/Museum/Tomb of Unknown Soldiers is incredible), but as far as cities and capitals go ... let's just say that if Ottawa is aiming to be like it, God help us.

[k2p]

The Citizen had a piece on wellington/ottawa a while back...

http://www2.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/opinion/story.html?id=c0fe5730-d098-470d-bbd4-f742cacb46b4

[phil235]

Ken Gray's blog had a piece on Alex Cullen's record of saying no to any major project that gets pitched in this city. I think that the same could be said of this council in general - so many good ideas are rejected because they aren't perfect or even worse, as a result of criticisms that aren't based in any kind of fact. It's easier to tear down than to build.

http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/bulldog/archive/2009/04/24/the-saga-of-doctor-no.aspx

[p_xavier]

Ken Gray's blog had a piece on Alex Cullen's record of saying no to any major project that gets pitched in this city. I think that the same could be said of this council in general - so many good ideas are rejected because they aren't perfect or even worse, as a result of criticisms that aren't based in any kind of fact. It's easier to tear down than to build.

http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/bulldog/archive/2009/04/24/the-saga-of-doctor-no.aspx

But then again, Ken Gray can't take criticisim nor his facts straight. I was arguing with him once, and his comeback was, well I've been studying it for 5 years! I answered, it's not for how long you study, but what you remember from it. People seem to be enamor more with the process than the result in Ottawa.

[eemy]

I was in Canberra not 4 months ago. In comparing Ottawa to Canberra I'm going to suggest that you've never been there and know very little about it.

I criticize Ottawa with the best of them, but it has very little in common with Canberra and is vastly superior as a city and capital in every imaginable way.

Canberra is pleasant, and has some nice attractions (their War Memorial/Museum/Tomb of Unknown Soldiers is incredible), but as far as cities and capitals go ... let's just say that if Ottawa is aiming to be like it, God help us.

I'm not saying we should emulate either of those places. Certainly Paris, or Amsterdam, or London offer wonderful urban forms which we should emulate; however, we certainly can't use them as measures of our success. Those cities aren't successful because they have fantastic urban planning departments, those cities are successful because of their long history which has shaped them. Ottawa doesn't have that privilege, and in that respect, it has far more in common with new world cities like Canberra and Wellington - not in form, but in terms of history and development. Even then, Canberra is a much newer city and has more in common with Brasilia than Ottawa or Wellington, whose histories are remarkably similar.

[Ottawade]

It does seem that our council is really hesitant to take first steps unless things are absolutely perfect. As a result we are afraid to make even very small mistakes. We aren't going to get everything perfect, and even if we do citizens' reactions and usage patterns may not live up to the presumed models.

With a lot of these big projects or overall city planning enough studies have been done and we need to move forward and then continually iterate using feedback from the process.

I agree with the many people that in avoid mistakes we are winding up with the worse outcome of all: a stagnant city.

[YOWetal]

I'm not saying we should emulate either of those places. Certainly Paris, or Amsterdam, or London offer wonderful urban forms which we should emulate; however, we certainly can't use them as measures of our success. Those cities aren't successful because they have fantastic urban planning departments, those cities are successful because of their long history which has shaped them. Ottawa doesn't have that privilege, and in that respect, it has far more in common with new world cities like Canberra and Wellington - not in form, but in terms of history and development. Even then, Canberra is a much newer city and has more in common with Brasilia than Ottawa or Wellington, whose histories are remarkably similar.

Paris, London are financial capitals as wells as seats of government. So Canberra, Brasilia as well as Washington DC are better comparisons. I agree Ottawa needs to stop being so hesitant and passive but I think there is a tendency to overplay the "G8 capital" line.

[Davis137]

Every level of government or public office in this town seems to always be afraid to be the "Bad Guy", in some scale/shap or form. Like those of you mentioned before, they are afraid to approve anything that's not cast in stone, afraid that one group or another is going to raise a stink about one project or another, everytime, so they bend over backwards to have some sort of conflict resolution or appeal, etc etc. Hence why things take so long to happen here.

That being said, like the EDC or other projects going on here, once given the go ahead and full support, they DO get them underway quickly.

[waterloowarrior]

City begins negotiations with Landsowne group
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/City+begins+negotiations+with+Landsowne+group/1539238/story.html

BY JAKE RUPERT , THE OTTAWA CITIZENAPRIL 27, 2009 4:57 PMBE THE FIRST TO POST A COMMENT


OTTAWA — Negotiations between city officials and a group of developers for the potential redevelopment of Lansdowne Park got under way Monday, the municipality’s top bureaucrat said.

City manager Kent Kirkpatrick is serving as the city’s point person for the negotiations, which were approved by city council last week.

He said the council motion to enter into detailed negotiations provides lot of direction on what can and can’t be done on the site, and the goal now is to come up with a plan satisfying council and community objectives that the developers can live with too.

Council directed that the negotiations be done in 60 days and for the potential deal to be brought back before them following three weeks of public consultations after that.

In order to get this accomplished on time, Kirkpatrick has put together a team of municipal staff with expertise in engineering, architecture, urban planning and business. He said he will also be using outside experts for some aspects of the negotiations.

However, he warned that people should not get ahead of themselves. He said after 60 days, the deal won’t be complete enough to start signing contracts for development.

Instead, he said the goal is get an agreement in principal on a broad range of topics, including what’s going to be built, and how the project will be financed. If council agrees to continue with the developers, Kirkpatrick said another round of study and review will be necessary before any contracts are signed.

“My job in this is to look out for the public’s interest,” he said. “We’re looking for the best deal we can get, that conforms with what council wants, and that they can live with.”

By a vote of 14 to nine last week, council voted to enter sole-source negotiation with the developers who had made an unsolicited proposal to the city for redevelopment of the site, including at least $100 million in repairs and upgrades to Frank Clair Stadium and the Civic Centre.

However, council passed strict conditions on what can be done by the developers at the park.

These include turning a substantial portion of the site into green space and public use areas, keeping the farmers’ market there, no big-box stores, city approval for any buildings, and that the public be consulted before any final decision is made.

Other conditions are for more trade show space, that the city’s financial contribution be limited and finite, that any deal not increase the costs to taxpayers above the $3.8 million needed to be spent yearly at the park to keep it functioning, and that revenues generated from the revitalization not to subsidize any professional sports team.

The developers, Roger Greenberg of Minto, John Ruddy of Trinity, and Bill Shenkman of the Shenkman Corp., want the city to fix the crumbling Frank Clair Stadium for a conditional Canadian Football League franchise they have won. They estimate this will cost $97 million. The city estimates $125 million. They also want the city to build a roughly $25-million parking garage for the site, and for the city pay for any community spaces to be included in the park.

They also propose a mixed-use development at Lansdowne Park that would include retail and entertainment space, a hotel, office space, and some residential building at a cost of $120 million to them.

Maybe councillors felt there proposal wasn’t a good deal for the city, and they are expecting a better one to come out of the negotiations.

After the council decision, the developers said they will work hard to come up with a plan that fits in with the neighbourhood the park is in and is financially right for the city.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

[Mille Sabords]

Ottawa doesn't have that privilege, and in that respect, it has far more in common with new world cities like Canberra and Wellington - not in form, but in terms of history and development. Even then, Canberra is a much newer city and has more in common with Brasilia than Ottawa or Wellington, whose histories are remarkably similar.

The one key difference between Ottawa and both Canberra and Brasilia, is that Ottawa grew organically, out of military and economic impetus, while the otehr two were planned and built from the ground up as capital cities. Thus, they carry the ideological imprint of whatever a "capital city" was supposed to represent as a concept at the time they were drawn, then built.

Canberra's plan was actually rooted in City Beautiful principles, but because the city took so much time to actually take off (ie. after World War II), it has ended up being a City Beautiful street network with suburban building typologies.

Brasilia was planned after WWII, specifically as a Modernist city with meticulous separation of uses. There is a hotel district. There is an office district. There are commercial and residential districts. It is the purest application of Le Corbusier's planning dogma. The fact that it has become "organic" despite its built form has to do with the opposite as what happened to Canberra: it boomed from zero to 3.6 million (metro) in half a century.

So, personally, I like observing cities like those because they represent extremes in planning in several respects. To emulate them is pointless. We already have a different past and a different path. We grew up as an "urban" town, dense, disorganized, brawling and muddy. We received the superimposed layer of nobility that the status of capital confers upon us. That layer expressed its utmost power and influence at the height of the automobile age. Now, on to the new era.

[eemy]

The one key difference between Ottawa and both Canberra and Brasilia, is that Ottawa grew organically, out of military and economic impetus, while the otehr two were planned and built from the ground up as capital cities. Thus, they carry the ideological imprint of whatever a "capital city" was supposed to represent as a concept at the time they were drawn, then built.

Canberra's plan was actually rooted in City Beautiful principles, but because the city took so much time to actually take off (ie. after World War II), it has ended up being a City Beautiful street network with suburban building typologies.

Brasilia was planned after WWII, specifically as a Modernist city with meticulous separation of uses. There is a hotel district. There is an office district. There are commercial and residential districts. It is the purest application of Le Corbusier's planning dogma. The fact that it has become "organic" despite its built form has to do with the opposite as what happened to Canberra: it boomed from zero to 3.6 million (metro) in half a century.

So, personally, I like observing cities like those because they represent extremes in planning in several respects. To emulate them is pointless. We already have a different past and a different path. We grew up as an "urban" town, dense, disorganized, brawling and muddy. We received the superimposed layer of nobility that the status of capital confers upon us. That layer expressed its utmost power and influence at the height of the automobile age. Now, on to the new era.

It's interesting that you mention this. Both Washington D.C. and Canberra are similar in that they were both planned based on City Beautiful principles. Look what difference time makes though. I wish I knew more about the history of planning in Wellington.

[jcollins]

Park project fishes around for aquarium location

By SHANE ROSS, SUN MEDIA
Last Updated: 30th April 2009, 3:08am


If a world-class aquarium is part of the redevelopment of Lansdowne Park, it won't be located in the Aberdeen Pavilion as originally proposed.

Roger Greenberg of Ottawa Sports & Entertainment Group, which is partnering with the city to create a vision for the park, said after further consultation, it was decided the Victorian heritage building is not the proper location for an aquarium.

But that doesn't mean it couldn't be located elsewhere in the park.

"If it can be located in such a way that there is absolutely no financial burden to the city, why would anyone object to a great tourist and education facility?" Greenberg said.

After debating unsolicited proposals from OSEG and Senators Sports & Entertainment to build a multipurpose outdoor stadium, city council voted last week to grant Greenberg's group the exclusive right to negotiate for 60 days with city staff on a redevelopment plan for Lansdowne Park.

REFURBISHING

The group had its first meeting with city manager Kent Kirkpatrick on Monday.

"We were just trying to map out challenges," Greenberg said. "Instead of being adversaries, now we're on the same side of the table."

Both sides agree any development would have to make financial sense for the city, which would own the land.

"The key to any partnership is that both sides win," Greenberg said. "Kent is the custodian of public funds, and we have to be satisfied we won't lose our shirts."

MOVIE THEATRE

OSEG is prepared to invest $120 million for commercial development along 9.4 acres of Bank St. that could include, with council's blessing, a hotel, movie theatre and retail space.

But OSEG is not prepared to invest in the aquarium, Greenberg said, so for it to become a reality, other sources of funding would have to be found.

Jeff Hunt and Kevin McCrann of OSEG travelled to the U.K. last year to scout out two aquariums built by the Australia-based company Marinescape. The one in Edinburgh, which features tiger sharks and a 112-metre-long underwater viewing tunnel, claims to draw more than 1 million visitors a year.

Many councillors said they are intrigued by the idea, but others are already voicing opposition.

"I don't like aquariums, zoos or even zoological parks," said Knoxdale-Merivale Coun. Gord Hunter. "If people want to see fish they should go where the fish are. We should not be part of capturing and captivating these creatures."

SHANE.ROSS@SUNMEDIA.CA


Well at least it won't be in the pavilion! Maybe they've read some of the posts on here ;)

And that last comment from Gord Hunter, "go where the fish are"...give me a break.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Well at least it won't be in the pavilion! Maybe they've read some of the posts on here ;)

And that last comment from Gord Hunter, "go where the fish are"...give me a break.

Ditto.

And go where the fish are? Yeah, I got $2000 dollars just lying around in this economy to bugger off to Cuba or Jamaica and see some fish. :rolleyes:

P.S. About the Aberdeen Pavillion, why not make that the focal point of the farmer's market? We could set up some very nice stalls and facilities inside, with even more stalls outside, making the Aberdeen Pavillion the centrepiece. What do the rest of you think?

[lrt's friend]

Ditto.

And go where the fish are? Yeah, I got $2000 dollars just lying around in this economy to bugger off to Cuba or Jamaica and see some fish. :rolleyes:

P.S. About the Aberdeen Pavillion, why not make that the focal point of the farmer's market? We could set up some very nice stalls and facilities inside, with even more stalls outside, making the Aberdeen Pavillion the centrepiece. What do the rest of you think?

Think of the St. Lawrence market in downtown Toronto. A great success!

[jcollins]

Ditto.

And go where the fish are? Yeah, I got $2000 dollars just lying around in this economy to bugger off to Cuba or Jamaica and see some fish. :rolleyes:

P.S. About the Aberdeen Pavillion, why not make that the focal point of the farmer's market? We could set up some very nice stalls and facilities inside, with even more stalls outside, making the Aberdeen Pavillion the centrepiece. What do the rest of you think?

I dont really know what Aberdeen Pavillion is like inside, so I cant speak to that. But can I come to Cuba or Jamaica with you? haha :cheers:

[rodionx]

Ditto.

And go where the fish are? Yeah, I got $2000 dollars just lying around in this economy to bugger off to Cuba or Jamaica and see some fish. :rolleyes:

P.S. About the Aberdeen Pavillion, why not make that the focal point of the farmer's market? We could set up some very nice stalls and facilities inside, with even more stalls outside, making the Aberdeen Pavillion the centrepiece. What do the rest of you think?

They should compromise and make it a fish market. People could look at the fish and then take them home and eat them.

[osbort]

Ditto.

And go where the fish are? Yeah, I got $2000 dollars just lying around in this economy to bugger off to Cuba or Jamaica and see some fish. :rolleyes:

P.S. About the Aberdeen Pavillion, why not make that the focal point of the farmer's market? We could set up some very nice stalls and facilities inside, with even more stalls outside, making the Aberdeen Pavillion the centrepiece. What do the rest of you think?

:yes: I think that is a great idea; the interior would be perfect for a farmer's market and it's a great location too. I think it would be very successful. I think the whole aquarium thing was silly and is still silly and will continue to be silly.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

:yes: I think that is a great idea; the interior would be perfect for a farmer's market and it's a great location too. I think it would be very successful. I think the whole aquarium thing was silly and is still silly and will continue to be silly.

I for one, support the idea of having a nice aquarium in Ottawa, but NOT in the Aberdeen Pavillion. I'd much rather see it in the Museum of Nature or better yet, as a stand alone facility somewhere in downtown Hull or somewhere in Ottawa like around LeBreton Flats/Bayview or somewhere in the east end.

[Rathgrith]

^Why don't they just fill Andrew Haydon Hall with water at City Hall? It will make council meetings allot more interesting to watch. (Not that it was in the first place.) Plus the glass at the entrance will make for a pretty display.

[Radster]

We all knew it was coming, now its official...

http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa/2009/05/06/9371746.html

[highdensitysprawl]

We all knew it was coming, now its official...

http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa/2009/05/06/9371746.html

I agree that everybody is entitled to their opinion, but to me this is like the Manotick OMB hearing....1 or more Councillors didn't get what they wanted so they just can't suck it up and move on. Appealing the Manotick OMB decision to some sort of cabinet decision is just a lesson in futility and throwing good money at bad and that is how I feel about this Landsdowne Park issue.

As the Rideau Canal is a world heritage site, does that mean that the McMansions with pesticide laden lawns leading to the rivers edge in Manotick and Osgoode are to preserved for eternity.

Having dealt with Doucet recently (I emerged reasonably unscathed), my opinion of him is rather low. There are, however, some Councillors, that I have a lower opinion of.

[AuxTown]

Doucet is a freakin' blowhard and his quest to make Lansdowne a completely under-utilised space really pisses me off. Walk 10 minutes from Lansdowne and you have tons of great green and park space (Brewer Park, Carleton U, Dow's Lake, Brantwood Park, the entire Rideau River pathway system); we don't need any more parks! Some of the space around the stadium could and probably should be functional parkland (sports fields, paths), but to make it a giant poorly-used blob of grass is irresponsible and is poor planning.

[Mille Sabords]

Doucet is a freakin' blowhard and his quest to make Lansdowne a completely under-utilised space really pisses me off. Walk 10 minutes from Lansdowne and you have tons of great green and park space (Brewer Park, Carleton U, Dow's Lake, Brantwood Park, the entire Rideau River pathway system); we don't need any more parks! Some of the space around the stadium could and probably should be functional parkland (sports fields, paths), but to make it a giant poorly-used blob of grass is irresponsible and is poor planning.

Aye, brother.

[k2p]

Clive Doucet: "New York has Central Park, London has Hyde Park"

Fair enough. So you get your empty grass if you support Manhattan-high buildings all around; and a Piccadilly Circus-like thingy perhaps at Sunnyside. Deal?

Clive Doucet: "Lansdowne Park is at the centre of our city."

Um, okay, so is the Market. Should that be grass, too?

Clive Doucet: "Lansdowne is adjacent to the Rideau Canal, a United Nations World Heritage Site."

Quebec City is a world heritage site, too. And, my, what a dreary awful place that's become with those restaurants, cafes and people cluttering it up.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Isn't there some way we can find/use a law to get rid of Clive?

[highdensitysprawl]

Isn't there some way we can find/use a law to get rid of Clive?

He could run for the title of the official poet laureate of the City...him and John Ralston Saul (the two biggest windbags this City has) could duke it out for the title.

[jchamoun79]

"Doucet is calling on city residents to join his campaign by sending in their memories, stories and photographs of the park and share their ideas for how they want Lansdowne to look in the future".

This campaign doesn't make any sense.

Hey Clive, people's memories and stories of Lansdowne Park probably involve seeing events at the very same venues that would be gone if your vision of Lansdowne were to be realized.

[thurmas]

"Doucet is calling on city residents to join his campaign by sending in their memories, stories and photographs of the park and share their ideas for how they want Lansdowne to look in the future". I can think of it now I remember it was the summer of 2008 and this beautiful ball of tumble-weed came rolling down the sarejevo like parking lot and it sure brought a tear to my eye. thank you doucet for keeping this wonderful site intact. oh brother

[waterloowarrior]

Business expert slams Lansdowne Live
By DEREK PUDDICOMBE, SUN MEDIA
Last Updated: 7th May 2009, 5:11pm
http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa/2009/05/06/9371746.html
Sole sourcing city contracts could lead to corruption, says the head of Carleton University’s MBA program.

Ian Lee, the director of MBA programs at the Sprott School of Business at Carleton, said it’s absurd that in the 21st century any level of government is sole sourcing contracts in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

Lee was speaking at a news conference hosted by Capital Coun. Clive Doucet.

The councillor wants to put a stop to the potential contract between the city and a group of local businessmen who want to renovate Lansdowne Park. Doucet wants to open ideas for the redevelopment of the property up to the world.

“Sole sourcing is not only bad in terms of the research and practice because of the risk of corruption, it is also bad economics.”

Lee was highly critical of city’s policy that allows for sole sourcing contracts and the bureaucrats that condone the practice.

“I think that they don’t have ... the sophistication of say public servants at the level of the federal government,” he said.

Roger Greenberg, one of four local businessmen behind the Lansdowne Live proposal, was fuming when he heard of Lee’s comments and called them “ridiculous.”

“One has nothing to do with the other,” said Greenberg. “It’s a scandalous statement.”

Greenberg said Doucet has reached to the lowest depths of desperation in his attempts to halt the project. He said the process that got the city and developer to this point has been “completely transparent.”

He also criticized Doucet’s idea of greening the property and opening it up to a park for the people.

“It hasn’t been a park for the past 50 years. That’s why we’re calling it Lansdowne Live not Lansdowne Park,” he said. “There’s nothing park about it.”

However, Lee suggested opening up the redevelopment of the space will lead to the best deal for the city.

“You go to competitive bids, why?,” said Lee. “Because you’ll get a better price of better value.”

Doucet would like to see the 18-hectare property converted into a green park similar to other parks in capital cities around the world.

“I have just begun to fight,” said Doucet.

College Coun. Rick Chiarelli, the force who pushed council to allow the city to enter into negotiations with the developers last month, shrugged off any suggestion that sole sourcing will lead to corruption.

“We have a definite process to follow under sole sourcing issues and it complies completely with the law,” he said.

“We have a fairness commissioner and have had legal advice that we take into account every step of way. Mr Doucet knows this.”

Lee added the group is turning to different levels of government for funding because the business plan is so weak that no bank would lend them money for the project.

derek.puddicombe@sunmedia.ca

[jcollins]

At this point I think they actually might be reading the forum...:haha:

Ditto.

And go where the fish are? Yeah, I got $2000 dollars just lying around in this economy to bugger off to Cuba or Jamaica and see some fish. :rolleyes:

P.S. About the Aberdeen Pavillion, why not make that the focal point of the farmer's market? We could set up some very nice stalls and facilities inside, with even more stalls outside, making the Aberdeen Pavillion the centrepiece. What do the rest of you think?


In the market for a roof

Politicians want to move farmers into pavilion

By TERRI SAUNDERS, SUN MEDIA

Last Updated: 11th May 2009, 3:30am


Now that plans to turn Lansdowne Park's Aberdeen Pavilion into a giant, walk-through aquarium have gone down the drain, officials from different levels of government have an idea about what should be housed inside the historic building.

The Ottawa Farmers' Market, which kicked off its fourth season yesterday by setting up shop in the parking lot just north of the pavilion, would benefit from year-round operation, politicians said.

"I'm looking forward to the day when we're having it year-round and it's inside that pavilion," said Capital Coun. Clive Doucet.

Having grown from 19 vendors to more than 150 in just four years, the OFM needs a permanent home like the pavilion in order to serve the community and support local farming operations.

DREAM ONE DAY

"I think we all agree that we want to put the 'park' back into Lansdowne Park and the dream I have is that one day this farmers' market will be a year-round enterprise in the Aberdeen Pavilion," said Yasir Naqvi, MPP for Ottawa Centre.

The talk about the future of the market came on the same day officials from the Ontario government handed over a cheque for $77,000 to Savour Ottawa, an initiative spearheaded by Just Food, Ottawa Tourism and the City of Ottawa to develop and promote the city and the surrounding area as a culinary destination featuring local foods.

"This funding is really important to Savour Ottawa. It allows us to continue doing the work that we started a number of years ago, working with local farmers, working with restaurants, and looking to increase the amount of local food that is served in those restaurants," said Heather Hossie of Savour Ottawa.

Politicians on hand for the market opening and the funding announcement stressed the importance of what Ottawa West-Nepean MPP Jim Watson referred to as "consumer clout."

"Those tomatoes that come from California have been sitting on a truck or a train for an awful long time," said Watson. "You can buy local and press your local grocery store (and) ask them where the local produce is. It's the only way we're going to get the big chains to buy local."

TERRI.SAUNDERS@SUNMEDIA.CA

[flar]

I don't know what else this building is used for, and I haven't been inside, but it looks like it would be ideal for a market. A big full range year round market is something missing here in Ottawa.

I've been to the vendors in the Byward Market and the Parkdale Market, but they're just not the same as what I'm used to. My last two cities had nice year round indoor markets with a full range of produce, meats, cheeses, bakeries, etc. My family and I went to the Hamilton Farmer's Market every Saturday morning and when I lived in London, ON I went to the Covent Garden Market almost daily (I lived a block away). Each had tons of selection and were much cheaper than grocery stores while providing an outlet for local producers.

[Richard Eade]

I don't know what else this building is used for, and I haven't been inside, but it looks like it would be ideal for a market. A big full range year round market is something missing here in Ottawa.

I've been to the vendors in the Byward Market and the Parkdale Market, but they're just not the same as what I'm used to. My last two cities had nice year round indoor markets with a full range of produce, meats, cheeses, bakeries, etc. My family and I went to the Hamilton Farmer's Market every Saturday morning and when I lived in London, ON I went to the Covent Garden Market almost daily (I lived a block away). Each had tons of selection and were much cheaper than grocery stores while providing an outlet for local producers.
I think the point is that these are supposed to be LOCAL MARKETS selling LOCALLY PRODUCED GOODS, not imported bananas and brie. Having a year-round market simply makes it another grocery store; soon they too will be selling baby clothes and barbeques.

[p_xavier]

I think the point is that these are supposed to be LOCAL MARKETS selling LOCALLY PRODUCED GOODS, not imported bananas and brie. Having a year-round market simply makes it another grocery store; soon they too will be selling baby clothes and barbeques.

Well exactly, I was so pissed to learn that most produce from the Byward Market was exactly the same as the Loeb's or any other grocery store. I assumed that it was like Marché Jean-Talon.

[flar]

A real farmer's market is a completely different experience than a grocery store. It's much much larger than a grocery store, there is a great diversity of ethnic foods, you can choose from many local butchers and fishmongers for a better selection of fresher, higher quality meats, fish and cheeses than you can get at any grocery store, there are bakeries that have far better products than any grocery store, it's way cheaper than any grocery store and you really can't match the bustling atmosphere at a grocery store.

I don't know if Lansdowne is the place for it, but it's really something that I miss and I think Ottawa could use. As I said, I have shopped at markets weekly for more than ten years and now that is over because I haven't found anything like it here.

[kwoldtimer]

A real farmer's market is a completely different experience than a grocery store. It's much much larger than a grocery store, there is a great diversity of ethnic foods, you can choose from many local butchers and fishmongers for a better selection of fresher, higher quality meats, fish and cheeses than you can get at any grocery store, there are bakeries that have far better products than any grocery store, it's way cheaper than any grocery store and you really can't match the bustling atmosphere at a grocery store.

I don't know if Lansdowne is the place for it, but it's really something that I miss and I think Ottawa could use. As I said, I have shopped at markets weekly for more than ten years and now that is over because I haven't found anything like it here.

Having visited the Ottawa Farmers Market this past (wicked cold) Sunday, I would really like to see it moved into the Aberdeen Pavilion, as long as it did not prevent the building from also being used for other events. The idea of a market selling only local, often organic, seasonal produce and other products is a terrific idea, as the success of the market at Landsdowne has shown.:cheers:

[waterloowarrior]

Lansdowne talks require more time
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/fp/Lansdowne+talks+require+more+time/1640513/story.html

THE OTTAWA CITIZENMAY 28, 2009 11:01 PM


Ottawa’s city manager is seeking an extra month to negotiate the deal to develop Lansdowne Park.

In a note to city councillors Thursday, Kent Kirkpatrick says he is seeking another 30 days beyond the 60-day period already approved by council, to negotiate with the Lansdowne Live group.

That group of businessmen has proposed developing Lansdowne Park, bringing in stores, theatres and housing, while reconstructing Frank Clair Stadium for a new Canadian Football League team. The project would be a joint effort with the city, which owns the land.

City council, having received a report that details millions of dollars of work it must do to maintain Lansdowne, approved negotiations on April 22.

Kirkpatrick says the parties have met regularly and an urban design expert has been hired to work on the concept. The extra time will be requested of council on June 10.

The city manager says the additional time would provide more detail and confidence about the project. The report on the talks would go to council on Aug. 26.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

[waterloowarrior]

from Maria Cook's blog
http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/designingottawa/archive/2009/05/31/is-lansdowne-live-a-good-deal-have-your-say.aspx

Is Lansdowne Live a good deal? Have your say

By MARIACOOK 05-31-2009 COMMENTS(0) DESIGNING OTTAWA

Filed under: Frank Clair Stadium, Lansdowne Live, Lansdowne Park, Glebe, Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group
Are you concerned about the future of Lansdowne Park? If so, there's a public meeting on Tuesday June 2 at 7.30 p.m. in the Assembly Hall at Lansdowne.

The Lansdowne Live project will be described and various experts will offer their views. Public comments will be forwarded to members of city council who are currently negotiating with the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group.

The meeting is organized by a new citizens' group called Friends of Lansdowne Park. Issues of concern include "significant expenditure by the City of Ottawa, payable from property taxes, the leasing of public land without prospect of receiving meaningful rent, and questionable procurement practices by the City."

It is interesting to note that the last public consultation on Lansdowne was in February 2008.

Robert Brocklebank, president of the Glebe Community Association, provides the following summary.

"Competition for the redevelopment of Lansdowne Park was halted a year ago. Last month, the City began negotiations on a single-source basis with a business group known as OSEG (Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group.)

"The project proposal on which negotiations were launched was that Ottawa taxpayers pay for the restoration of Frank Clair stadium and the Civic Centre plus build parking facilities at a cost of about $125 million; that OSEG be given the construction contract and that the renovated facilities be turned over to OSEG for a 30-year lease under a nominal rent.

"In addition, some nine to 10 acres of the park would be leased to OSEG for 30 years (again at a nominal rent) to permit the construction of a shopping and entertainment complex, plus possibly a hotel and office buildings.

"Any improvements to the balance of the park would be at the cost of the City, but OSEG would be granted management and control of the entire park.

"OSEG would build the shopping complex etc. at their expense and would operate a CFL football team which would play its home games in the renovated stadium. City revenue from the project would be limited to whatever nominal rents are determined and property taxes on the shopping complex buildings.

"Negotiations are to proceed for 60 days. If a negotiated arrangement is reached, it will be opened to public consultation, followed by Council acceptance (or rejection) of the deal."

For more: www.friendsoflansdownepark.ca

[waterloowarrior]

Group calls for city to halt talks with Lansdowne Live backers
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Group+calls+city+halt+talks+with+Lansdowne+Live+backers/1656211/story.html
Friends of Lansdowne Park seek restart of competitive bid process

BY JOANNE CHIANELLO, THE OTTAWA CITIZENJUNE 2, 2009 11:02 PM

OTTAWA-It was standing room only in the Assembly Hall in the Civic Centre on Tuesday night as more than 300 residents came out in support of a bid to halt the Lansdowne Live proposal.

A group calling itself Friends of Lansdowne Park wants the city to step back from its negotiations with a group of Ottawa-based developers and return to a competitive, accountable process.

“It is a bad proposal,” panelist Ian Lee said to thunderous applause.

Lee, of the Sprott School of Business at Carleton University, added: “If the deal is so good, why has it not been put to a competitive bid?”

The group is expected to follow Tuesday night’s meeting with a rally scheduled for June 14.

The panel representing Friends of Lansdowne Park told the overwhelmingly supportive crowd that it was concerned many citizens were unaware that the Lansdowne Live proposal would cost taxpayers more than $125 million just to renovate Frank Clair Stadium and the Civic Centre arena and to build two parking structures.

The group is also concerned that the public has not been allowed to see the developer’s detailed proposal for Lansdowne Park.

Other speakers at Tuesday night’s meeting included Bob Brocklebank, president of the Glebe Community Association, Caroline Andrew, a political science professor at the University of Ottawa, and Robert Webster, representing the Ottawa Regional Society of Architects.

The panelists, and most of the 20 or so people who commented publicly at the meeting , questioned city council’s so-called sole-source negotiations with the developers.

“If you have a flawed design process, you will have a flawed product,” Webster said.

The future of Lansdowne Park had been the subject of an international design competition, but that process was stopped when the developers brought forward their proposal.

The developers — Roger Greenberg of Minto, John Ruddy of Trinity, and Bill Shenkman of the Shenkman Corp., together with Jeff Hunt of the Ottawa 67’s junior hockey team — have secured a conditional Canadian Football League franchise they want to bring to Lansdowne Park. However, they want the city to pay for fixing up the dilapidated Frank Clair Stadium.

They are also proposing, among other things, to build — on land they would essentially lease for free for 30 years from the city — a mixed-use development that would include retail and entertainment venues plus hotel, office and residential space.

The fact that a CFL team is such a key part of the proposal also has Friends of Lansdowne Park worried.

“The market has told us football will not succeed at the location,” Lee said, referring to the demise of the Ottawa Rough Riders in 1996 and the Ottawa Renegades in 2006.

“The risk (of the proposal) is falling overwhelmingly on the taxpayer. As a business-loan proposal, I would reject it.”

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

[ottawatraffic]

You do start to question why the taxpayers should shell out $100M for 9 or 10 football games a year.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

You do start to question why the taxpayers should shell out $100M for 9 or 10 football games a year.

Because we're trying to turn Lansdowne Park into more than just a football stadium? :rolleyes:

And frankly, I'd much rather "shell out" $125M for a renovated Civic Centre that can host football, soccer, hockey, concerts, international events/games/competitions and provides more to do and see in the Glebe than shell out $125M for a "park" which in Ottawa means trees and grass.

[ottawatraffic]

Because we're trying to turn Lansdowne Park into more than just a football stadium? :rolleyes:

And frankly, I'd much rather "shell out" $125M for a renovated Civic Centre that can host football, soccer, hockey, concerts, international events/games/competitions and provides more to do and see in the Glebe than shell out $125M for a "park" which in Ottawa means trees and grass.

While I agree with that, I'm not sure thats where this is going to end up

[AuxTown]

While I agree with that, I'm not sure thats where this is going to end up

How so?

The money would go to a refurbished footbal stadium that's capable of hosting other events including professional soccer, concerts, other large gatherings (what if the pope over comes to town?). They will also renovate the Civic Centre, the home of Ottawa's beloved junior hockey franchise. On top of all this, they will be converting the existing sea of gravel parking lots and dumpsters into a vibrant urban environment complete with parks, public sports fields, retail/restaurants, cultural instututions (museums/galleries), and residential developments. People from the Glebe are determined to kill this project, not because it is a horrible plan, but for their own selfish reasons regarding traffic, noise, etc. I don't think anyone had delusions that Lansdowne would remain virtually vacant and inactive forever and I hope they don't think another park is what this city needs.

[jchamoun79]

“The market has told us football will not succeed at the location,” Lee said, referring to the demise of the Ottawa Rough Riders in 1996 and the Ottawa Renegades in 2006.

The "market" has done no such thing. The stadium at Lansdowne Park hosted football for nearly 90 years. The location of the stadium had nothing to do with the demise of those two teams.

And can someone please explain to me how, exactly, these people are "friends" of Lansdowne Park? How can you claim to be friends of the park when you're actively working to ensure that it contains to decay?

[Proof Sheet]

And can someone please explain to me how, exactly, these people are "friends" of Lansdowne Park? How can you claim to be friends of the park when you're actively working to ensure that it contains to decay?

The same way that people at public meetings claim to be 'friends/stewards of the community' which is really another way of saying, 'the drawbridge is lifted now and we don't want anything to change'.

[waterloowarrior]

Whistleblower cries foul over deal
Says sole-source approach to Lansdowne proves Ottawa has failed to learn from sponsorship scandal (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Whistleblower+cries+foul+over+deal/1675749/story.html)

[waterloowarrior]

Council grants 60 more days for Lansdowne deal
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Council+grants+more+days+Lansdowne+deal/1683269/story.html

BY PATRICK DARE, THE OTTAWA CITIZENJUNE 10, 2009 10:44 PM


Ottawa Council on Wednesday somewhat reluctantly gave its staff and the business group that wants to develop Lansdowne Park another 60 days to work out a deal.

Council had in April approved a 60-day negotiation period where the Lansdowne Live group of business people — Bill Shenkman, Jeff Hunt, Roger Greenberg and John Ruddy — would negotiate the redevelopment project for the nearly 40-acre site. The group, also called Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group, wants to building stores, theatres, a hotel and housing, as well as refurbish Frank Clair Stadium for a new Canadian Football League team.

City manager Kent Kirkpatrick told councillors progress is being made, but more time is needed.

“It is very complicated. It is an extreme amount of work,” said Kirkpatrick. Councillor Peter Hume proposed that the negotiations not have a deadline, to ensure that they are thorough and final. But Kirkpatrick said he needs the pressure of a deadline to create pressure “to fish or cut bait.”

Most of the councillors agreed, voting 14-7 to extend the negotiations so that the report goes to city councillors on Aug. 26.

Many councillors want some concrete outcome from the talks because of the rapidly deteriorating state of Lansdowne Park, where the rusting football stands are judged unsafe and other buildings are said to be in need of millions of dollars in repairs over the next decade.

But the project is controversial among some councillors because of the fact that it’s an unsolicited proposal from a developers and would be a sole-sourced deal if approved.

Councillor Clive Doucet — noting that the proposal led the city manager to cancel a design competition on the future of Lansdowne — said the current process is unethical and “a backroom deal” involving a huge public asset.

Councillor Rick Chiarelli said that provincial laws permit such deals and the City of Ottawa has accepted a number of unsolicited proposals from businesses. Chiarelli said Lansdowne needs urgently needs such a project because it is crumbling.

The former regional government of Ottawa-Carleton did not accept unsolicited proposals from business groups in order to avoid accusations of favouritism in contracting.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

[Davis137]

People couldn't organize an escape from a wet paper bag in this town.

Tell the NIMBY's to go pound salt.

[waterloowarrior]

City officials lobby Baird for funding to redevelop Lansdowne
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/City+officials+lobby+Baird+funding+redevelop+Lansdowne/1694183/story.html

BY ANDREW DUFFY, THE OTTAWA CITIZENJUNE 14, 2009 12:01 AMBE THE FIRST TO POST A COMMENT


OTTAWA — A City of Ottawa delegation has met with Transport and Infrastructure Minister John Baird to discuss federal funding for a refurbished sports stadium at Lansdowne Park.

The Parliament Hill lobbying effort took place Thursday, one day after city council approved a 60-day extension to negotiations with Lansdowne Live, the business group that wants to redevelop the historic park.

Councillors Rick Chiarelli and Bob Monette were part of the delegation that also included a representative from Lansdowne Live.

The councillors updated Baird on the Lansdowne proposal and signalled the city’s intent to approach the government for money if and when that project is approved.

Specific dollar figures were not discussed, Chiarelli said, but the councillors did present details of federal grants recently made to other stadium construction projects in Canada.

The $72-million BMO Field in Toronto received $27 million in federal cash. The 20,500-seat city-owned stadium, home to Major League Soccer’s Toronto FC, opened in 2007.

And earlier this year, the federal government also pledged $15 million toward the cost of a new football stadium and amateur sports complex in Winnipeg.

Chiarelli said Baird understands that Ottawa will be looking for a similar grant if the Lansdowne project receives the green light.

“But to him (Baird), this isn’t about a stadium, it’s about Lansdowne and fixing that part of town,” Chiarelli said.

“He seemed open to doing what he can to help.”

Councillor Clive Doucet, a leading critic of the Lansdowne Live proposal, wasn’t aware of the meeting until contacted Saturday by a Citizen reporter. “I’m surprised at my colleagues. I really am surprised that they’re proceeding in this fashion,” Doucet fumed. “It’s more backroom dealing.”

Doucet said it’s inappropriate for councillors to act as if the project has already been approved.

“Doesn’t it strike you as a bit strange that you have two city councillors wheeling and dealing with a minister for a proposal that is unsolicited and that council hasn’t voted on, and that people haven’t seen yet? That bothers me.”

Doucet, whose ward includes the Glebe park, wants the city to scrap its sole-source arrangement with Lansdowne Live and restart a design competition that would open the process to bids by other development groups.

The city halted the international design competition — approved by council in 2007 — after receiving an unsolicited proposal to redevelop Lansdowne from local businessmen John Ruddy, Roger Greenberg, Bill Shenkman and Jeff Hunt.

The group submitted its proposal last October after being granted a conditional Canadian Football League franchise.

Lansdowne Live wants to redevelop the 40-acre site in partnership with the city. The group’s proposal would see it invest $120 million in the construction of a retail and entertainment complex, a hotel and a townhouse development.

The city would pay an estimated $125 million or more for renovations to the stadium and other proposed amenities, including a parking garage, aquarium, ampitheatre, ponds and playing fields.

A rally organized by the Friends of Lansdowne Park is to be held today at 1 p.m. at the Aberdeen Pavilion. The community group wants to broaden the discussion on the park’s redevelopment.

The rally will feature three speakers and a guided tour of the park to highlight its size and potential.

Councillor Bob Monette said this week’s meeting with Baird was largely an information session designed to keep the minister up to date on the Lansdowne file.

Strategically, he noted, it made sense to discuss the project while the federal government is in the process of distributing billions of dollars in infrastructure money.

Any money committed by the government, he said, will make the project that much more affordable for the city.

“I think it could work without federal funding, but if we can get some help from the federal and provincial governments, why not?” Monette said. “It would definitely make it more saleable.”

If negotiations with the city prove fruitful, Lansdowne Live will table a comprehensive redevelopment proposal by Aug. 26. That proposal, Monette said, would then go through public consultations before being voted on by council.

If council approves the project, he said, the city would then approach the federal government with a specific request for financial assistance.

It is far from certain, however, how the process will conclude, Monette said.

“Right now, you’re getting a large group from the Glebe that are trying to protest this, along with Councillor Doucet,” he said. “And you never know. At the end of the day, council might say, ‘No, we’re not going ahead.’ And what that means is that what you see, a concrete park, is probably what you’re going to see for the next two decades.”

“It would be very sad for the city, if at the end of the day it’s put aside.”

Doucet, however, said the process that has brought the city to this point has been flawed “and it just gets worse every day.”

“I don’t understand why we continue to do what no other city in Canada would do: to sole source the disposition of the most important piece of land the city owns.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

[waterloowarrior]

Crowd gathers to fight Lansdowne Live
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Crowd+gathers+fight+Lansdowne+Live/1694183/story.html
Doucet pans ‘backroom dealing’ with Baird before council has voted to go ahead with project

BY ANDREW DUFFY, THE OTTAWA CITIZENJUNE 14, 2009COMMENTS (10)


STORYPHOTOS ( 1 )


OTTAWA — A rally organized by the Friends of Lansdowne Park is expected to draw hundreds of protestors Sunday to the city’s embattled central park.

The rally, to begin at 1 p.m at the Aberdeen Pavilion, features three speakers and a guided tour of the park to highlight its size and potential for things other than a redeveloped football stadium. The rally takes place on the same day that the Citizen revealed that a City of Ottawa delegation met with Transport and Infrastructure Minister John Baird to discuss federal funding for a refurbished sports stadium at Lansdowne Park.

The Parliament Hill lobbying effort took place Thursday, one day after city council approved a 60-day extension to negotiations with Lansdowne Live, the business group that wants to redevelop the historic park. Councillors Rick Chiarelli and Bob Monette were part of the delegation that also included a representative from Lansdowne Live.

The councillors updated Baird on the Lansdowne proposal and signalled the city’s intent to approach the government for money if and when that project is approved. Specific dollar figures were not discussed, Chiarelli said, but the councillors did present details of federal grants recently made to other stadium construction projects in Canada.

The $72-million BMO Field in Toronto received $27 million in federal cash. The 20,500-seat city-owned stadium, home to Major League Soccer’s Toronto FC, opened in 2007. And earlier this year, the federal government also pledged $15 million toward the cost of a new football stadium and amateur sports complex in Winnipeg.

Chiarelli said Baird understands that Ottawa will be looking for a similar grant if the Lansdowne project receives the green light. “But to him (Baird), this isn’t about a stadium, it’s about Lansdowne and fixing that part of town,” Chiarelli said. “He seemed open to doing what he can to help.”

Councillor Clive Doucet, a leading critic of the Lansdowne Live proposal, wasn’t aware of the meeting until contacted Saturday by a Citizen reporter. “I’m surprised at my colleagues. I really am surprised that they’re proceeding in this fashion,” Doucet fumed. “It’s more backroom dealing.”

Doucet said it’s inappropriate for councillors to act as if the project has already been approved. “Doesn’t it strike you as a bit strange that you have two city councillors wheeling and dealing with a minister for a proposal that is unsolicited and that council hasn’t voted on, and that people haven’t seen yet? That bothers me.”

Doucet, whose ward includes the Glebe park, wants the city to scrap its sole-source arrangement with Lansdowne Live and restart a design competition that would open the process to bids by other development groups. The city halted the international design competition — approved by council in 2007 — after receiving an unsolicited proposal to redevelop Lansdowne from local businessmen John Ruddy, Roger Greenberg, Bill Shenkman and Jeff Hunt.

The group submitted its proposal last October after being granted a conditional Canadian Football League franchise. Lansdowne Live wants to redevelop the 40-acre site in partnership with the city. The group’s proposal would see it invest $120 million in the construction of a retail and entertainment complex, a hotel and a townhouse development. The city would pay an estimated $125 million or more for renovations to the stadium and other proposed amenities, including a parking garage, aquarium, ampitheatre, ponds and playing fields.

Councillor Bob Monette said this week’s meeting with Baird was largely an information session designed to keep the minister up to date on the Lansdowne file. Strategically, he noted, it made sense to discuss the project while the federal government is in the process of distributing billions of dollars in infrastructure money. Any money committed by the government, he said, will make the project that much more affordable for the city. “I think it could work without federal funding, but if we can get some help from the federal and provincial governments, why not?” Monette said. “It would definitely make it more saleable.”

If negotiations with the city prove fruitful, Lansdowne Live will table a comprehensive redevelopment proposal by Aug. 26. That proposal, Monette said, would then go through public consultations before being voted on by council. If council approves the project, he said, the city would then approach the federal government with a specific request for financial assistance. It is far from certain, however, how the process will conclude, Monette said.

“Right now, you’re getting a large group from the Glebe that are trying to protest this, along with Councillor Doucet,” he said. “And you never know. At the end of the day, council might say, ‘No, we’re not going ahead.’ And what that means is that what you see, a concrete park, is probably what you’re going to see for the next two decades.” “It would be very sad for the city, if at the end of the day it’s put aside.”

Doucet, however, said the process that has brought the city to this point has been flawed “and it just gets worse every day.” “I don’t understand why we continue to do what no other city in Canada would do: to sole source the disposition of the most important piece of land the city owns.”

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

[waterloowarrior]

Baird best to back off Lansdowne Live: critics

Minister gives wrong message by ignoring issues of process, weekend rally told
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Baird+best+back+Lansdowne+Live+critics/1695978/story.html
BY DAVID GONCZOL, THE OTTAWA CITIZENJUNE 15, 2009


STORYPHOTOS ( 4 )



More Images »

Chris White, artistic director of the Ottawa Folk Festival, performs a variation of This Land is Your Land singing This Lansdowne is Your Lansdowne during a rally of people opposed to the Lansdowne Live project at the Aberdeen Pavilion Sunday.
Photograph by: David Gonczol , The Ottawa Citizen
OTTAWA — Opponents of the Lansdowne Live project say there could be political and legal fallout if Transport and Infrastructure Minister John Baird promises federal money to the project. News that Baird sat down with some Ottawa city councillors and a Lansdowne Live representative last week hung over a rally of about 500 people who want to see the redevelopment project tendered.

David Chernushenko, a former deputy party leader of the national Green party and a community activist in Ottawa, addressed the rally beside the Aberdeen Pavilion Sunday afternoon and later said the effort to secure federal funds for Lansdowne Live was a dangerous move for the minister.

“I wouldn’t want to be a higher level politician in any way endorsing this process. I think they are playing with political fire. Do you really want to lose an election?” said Chernushenko.

“It would be ill-advised for him (Baird) to do anything but insist on an open and transparent process.

“No councillor should at this point, while things are in negotiation, be going to a higher source and speaking on behalf of council, on behalf of the citizens of Ottawa.

“Don’t have meetings to talk about this issue until the process is worked out.”

Lorne Cutler, president of the Hampton Iona Community Group, who was master of ceremonies for the rally, pointed to the legal difficulties currently facing the sole-sourced project to upgrade Gatineau’s Robert Guertin Arena.

Two Gatineau businessmen have launched a lawsuit against the public-private partnership because the process was not tendered. Nathalie Normandeau, Quebec’s municipal affairs minister, has since said that the current proposal for the arena would have to be scrapped because there had not been a call for tender.

“Because this is public space there should be a process to vision what the citizens want this space to be and whether it’s an Ottawa-wide competition or a Canadian competition or an international competition, the key is that it should be a public discussion with a public competition,” said Cutler.

Chernushenko said Baird’s involvement creates the impression that a “very clear ethical standard” is being breached.

“Does one small group of individuals have the door open wide for them to come through with a process and have access to public money that you would not have made open to any citizen?”

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/www.ottawacitizen.com/news/baird+best+back+lansdowne+live+critics/1695978/1695986.bin?size=620x400

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/www.ottawacitizen.com/news/baird+best+back+lansdowne+live+critics/1695978/1695985.bin?size=620x400

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/www.ottawacitizen.com/news/baird+best+back+lansdowne+live+critics/1695978/1695984.bin?size=620x400

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/www.ottawacitizen.com/news/baird+best+back+lansdowne+live+critics/1695978/1695983.bin?size=620x400

[Radster]

Crowd gathers to fight Lansdowne Live
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Crowd+gathers+fight+Lansdowne+Live/1694183/story.html

Councillor Bob Monette said this week’s meeting with Baird was largely an information session designed to keep the minister up to date on the Lansdowne file. Strategically, he noted, it made sense to discuss the project while the federal government is in the process of distributing billions of dollars in infrastructure money. Any money committed by the government, he said, will make the project that much more affordable for the city. “I think it could work without federal funding, but if we can get some help from the federal and provincial governments, why not?” Monette said. “It would definitely make it more saleable.”

If negotiations with the city prove fruitful, Lansdowne Live will table a comprehensive redevelopment proposal by Aug. 26. That proposal, Monette said, would then go through public consultations before being voted on by council. If council approves the project, he said, the city would then approach the federal government with a specific request for financial assistance. It is far from certain, however, how the process will conclude, Monette said.

“Right now, you’re getting a large group from the Glebe that are trying to protest this, along with Councillor Doucet,” he said. “And you never know. At the end of the day, council might say, ‘No, we’re not going ahead.’ And what that means is that what you see, a concrete park, is probably what you’re going to see for the next two decades.” “It would be very sad for the city, if at the end of the day it’s put aside.”




What part of this do the Glebe NIMBYs do not get!?!??! Revitalize the site NOW or remain with the status quo for another 2 decades?!?!?! Pathetic! They should just call themselves "Friends of Ottawa's concrete wasteland".

[jchamoun79]

What part of this do the Glebe NIMBYs do not get!?!??! Revitalize the site NOW or remain with the status quo for another 2 decades?!?!?! Pathetic! They should just call themselves "Friends of Ottawa's concrete wasteland".

Clive and the NIMBYs don't actually want to see Lansdowne redeveloped. They want a Big Grass Field, and if they can't have that they're happy to let Lansdowne remain a concrete wasteland until the end of time. In either case, the park remains an underused space, which means fewer people enjoying themselves and having a good time in their precious neighbourhood.

I also find the bashing of the Lansdowne Live developers (see the Minto and "corporate welfare" signs in the photos above) to be rather tiresome. It shows how highly ideological the opponents are. This despite the fact that these developers have done more for Ottawa than the "Friends" of Lansdowne Park ever will.

I guess it's easier to portray developers as uncaring, unscrupulous, money-hungry vultures than to put forth credible, reasonable arguments against the proposal.

[adam-machiavelli]

I attended the protest and did notice that the main concern of quite a few attendees was the presence of football events instead of a farmers' market. Also, I got the impression that there would be much more support for the redevelopment of Lansdowne Park if it had better (*direct*) rapid transit connections. Residents didn't like drunken football fans trashing their lawns after every game on the way to various bus stops. I agree with their concerns, which is why I think whatever is proposed for Lansdowne Park be moved to Hurdman Park. Speaking of grassy field, oh man that place is the epitome of grassy field!

[k2p]

I didn't attend the protest. But they always have reasons to stop anything that brings life to Lansdowne. Let's give Clive the benefit of the doubt and say bad transit is the real reason. How, then, will "all of Ottawa" get to enjoy the empty park he wants so badly? Or maybe it's drunken fans? Um, I though the market couldn't support football. Please, pick an argument. Either the stadium will be empty, or it won't. It can't be empty when arguing against, shudder, sports...and then full when it comes to defending the Glebe from rampaging hooligans.

[AuxTown]

I attended the protest and did notice that the main concern of quite a few attendees was the presence of football events instead of a farmers' market. Also, I got the impression that there would be much more support for the redevelopment of Lansdowne Park if it had better (*direct*) rapid transit connections. Residents didn't like drunken football fans trashing their lawns after every game on the way to various bus stops. I agree with their concerns, which is why I think whatever is proposed for Lansdowne Park be moved to Hurdman Park. Speaking of grassy field, oh man that place is the epitome of grassy field!

F#$@ these people! I guarantee that 95% of them bought their houses when there was an active CFL team in the capital and even those that didn't had no reason (or right) to expect Lansdowne to remain dormant forever. These are selfish NIMBYs looking out for their own best interests and asking for things that they have no business asking for. Lansdowne has been the site of football, hockey, and other large events since 1875 and I'll be damned if a bunch of self-righteous Glebites will take that away from us! I hope you're able to pick up on my rage regarding this topic as Ottawa is my home and the death of Lansdowne Park is something I take really seriously.

[Mille Sabords]

I didn't attend the protest. But they always have reasons to stop anything that brings life to Lansdowne. Let's give Clive the benefit of the doubt and say bad transit is the real reason. How, then, will "all of Ottawa" get to enjoy the empty park he wants so badly? Or maybe it's drunken fans? Um, I though the market couldn't support football. Please, pick an argument. Either the stadium will be empty, or it won't. It can't be empty when arguing against, shudder, sports...and then full when it comes to defending the Glebe from rampaging hooligans.

:haha: You're right, it's like a dog chasing its tail. As for drunken fans, there hasn't been much to celebrate, by drinking or otherwise, in the last 20 combined seasons of both franchises... if there was any drinking, believe me it was in sorrow, not the type of boisterous revelry that would wake these poor people.

But the same goes for my neighbourhood. There's always the great fear of the hordes of students, out of control, drinking, singing and shouting on the streets at all hours of the night, vomiting on lawns, breaking things etc. You'd think these were refugees of Gaza and they had actually witnessed a molotov cocktail assault or something. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've had a serious noise problem of that nature.

[Rathgrith]

O-town, you really need to start walking down Bank Street in the Glebe shouting what you just said out loud.... asap.

[Radster]

I attended the protest and did notice that the main concern of quite a few attendees was the presence of football events instead of a farmers' market. Also, I got the impression that there would be much more support for the redevelopment of Lansdowne Park if it had better (*direct*) rapid transit connections. Residents didn't like drunken football fans trashing their lawns after every game on the way to various bus stops. I agree with their concerns, which is why I think whatever is proposed for Lansdowne Park be moved to Hurdman Park. Speaking of grassy field, oh man that place is the epitome of grassy field!

There are supposed to be public consultations, are there not? This will be the perfect opportnity for local residents to voice their concerns over the LIVE plan, and offer suggestions. The present plan is far from a done deal. The farmers market can and most likely will be made into a year-round staple in the park (it could be the Ottawa equivalent of a Marché Jean-Talon). The football stadium & arena should and I think, will stay in the LIVE plan, it is a perfect location for professional sports, and it has too much history to just let go of. And with the right imagination, public transit can be improved in the LIVE plan, by dedicating a small area of the park for a transit loop & bus parking/waiting area. It could even be moved indoors, and connect to the farmers market and stadium/arena, that way the local residents can't complain about idling busses and fumes. It could be a part of a multi-purpose building. Also, like I previously wrote, do what has been done in other stadiums around the world, dig up the field in the stadium, and put some underground parking in there, its the perfect time for that.

[adam-machiavelli]

If the uses remain in Lansdowne Park and the city agrees to fork over 150 million dollars then I think city planners should develop a long-term transit solution, such as run a tunnel for rapid transit down Bank from downtown that veers west near the north end of Lansdowne, becoming the Carling RT route. Ottawa should look to Vancouver for a proper evaluation criteria for connecting mass transit to professional sports venues. They developed a good plan for connecting a new Whitecaps Stadium to Waterfront Station.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

While I do have my quips and concerns with the Lansdowne LIVE plan, it's better than anything we've gotten until this point. If you live in the Glebe, well too bad. Times and neighbourhoods change and to expect that Lansdowne will be quiet forever is stupid and an attitude that needs to change. It's not going to make the Glebe noisy and unlivable all the time. Sure, there will a couple bad nights, but that's simply what happens in large cities. Speaking of, we are a large city. If we want a Central Park, then we should expand the lovely arboreteum out in the experimental farm, not a historic fair grounds in central Ottawa.

With every process, there will be consultation, so do your fighting there where it will be more effective and give you some perspective. If transit is your real worry, then find transit solutions that don't involve stagnating the city and neighbourhood of development.


As an aside, I'd be in favour of a streetcar type rail line down the Queen Elizabeth Way from the NAC to Lansdowne. Maybe as far as Dow's Lake in order to meet up with the O-Train, the 85 and Little Italy.

[canadave]

As an aside, I'd be in favour of a streetcar type rail line down the Queen Elizabeth Way from the NAC to Lansdowne. Maybe as far as Dow's Lake in order to meet up with the O-Train, the 85 and Little Italy.

Send it to Dows Lake, and it could easily become a Carling LRT itself.

[m0nkyman]

That would involve the NCC actually allowing something to be built that serves people and not plants on their property. Not going to happen.

[umbria27]

What's the judgement here on Bruce Firestone's comments on the Lansdowne stadium location?

http://ottawastart.blogspot.com/2009/04/bruce-firestone-why-scotiabank-place-is.html

"The MAXIMUM number of people that OC can run up and down Bank Street would be about 2,500 pph (people per hour). For an arena with a 20,000 capacity, it would take four hours to exit everyone from the building using buses and another three hours or so to get them there in the first place, if you were to rely on public transit for, say, 50% of our attendance at a game or an event."

"So why not build a big, multi-level parking garage somewhere? Well, for the reason discussed above, you can’t actually park more than 7,000 vehicles vertically. Since everyone will leave at the same second the team loses in overtime to the Maple Leafs, a multi-level garage will simply not work. It will become grid locked."

As much as I hate to use the arguments of the man who gave us the abomination that is the Palladium, are his numbers valid?

How much surface parking do you need for a 25,000 seat stadium? Can you move than many people there on buses? We've all seen the Queensway on Sens game nights. I can't imagine moving that sort of traffic on Bank Street.



Full Disclosure: Umbria27 lives in the Glebe, wants a downtown stadium, but his preferred use for Lansdowne is as a year round jousting tournament and medieval fair

[ottawatraffic]

What's the judgement here on Bruce Firestone's comments on the Lansdowne stadium location?

http://ottawastart.blogspot.com/2009/04/bruce-firestone-why-scotiabank-place-is.html

"The MAXIMUM number of people that OC can run up and down Bank Street would be about 2,500 pph (people per hour). For an arena with a 20,000 capacity, it would take four hours to exit everyone from the building using buses and another three hours or so to get them there in the first place, if you were to rely on public transit for, say, 50% of our attendance at a game or an event."

"So why not build a big, multi-level parking garage somewhere? Well, for the reason discussed above, you can’t actually park more than 7,000 vehicles vertically. Since everyone will leave at the same second the team loses in overtime to the Maple Leafs, a multi-level garage will simply not work. It will become grid locked."

As much as I hate to use the arguments of the man who gave us the abomination that is the Palladium, are his numbers valid?

How much surface parking do you need for a 25,000 seat stadium? Can you move than many people there on buses? We've all seen the Queensway on Sens game nights. I can't imagine moving that sort of traffic on Bank Street.



Full Disclosure: Umbria27 lives in the Glebe, wants a downtown stadium, but his preferred use for Lansdowne is as a year round jousting tournament and medieval fair

i have read 1 spot for 4 every seats

[lrt's friend]

Nonsense! We managed to make Lansdowne Park work for decades and there were often crowds over 20,000 and we have hosted the Grey Cup twice in recent years with over 50,000 fans. My experience at the last Grey Cup using transit was very good. You don't have to use only Bank Street. Come on, this is just a self-serving argument that has clearly demonstrated with real life situations countless times to be false. How can this kind of argument possibly be used when Lansdowne has handled large crowds so many times in the past? I think that assuming a 50% transit modal share is totally unrealistic except possibly for Grey Cup size crowds and we have already demonstrated that it is possible to do this reasonably efficiently.

[ottawatraffic]

Nonsense! We managed to make Lansdowne Park work for decades and there were often crowds over 20,000 and we have hosted the Grey Cup twice in recent years with over 50,000 fans. My experience at the last Grey Cup using transit was very good. You don't have to use only Bank Street. Come on, this is just a self-serving argument that has clearly demonstrated with real life situations countless times to be false. How can this kind of argument possibly be used when Lansdowne has handled large crowds so many times in the past? I think that assuming a 50% transit modal share is totally unrealistic except possibly for Grey Cup size crowds and we have already demonstrated that it is possible to do this reasonably efficiently.

I think its the norm across North America, its actually in the zoning by-law

[rocketphish]

Full Disclosure: Umbria27 lives in the Glebe, wants a downtown stadium, but his preferred use for Lansdowne is as a year round jousting tournament and medieval fair

I feel that I must vociferously object to your stated preferential use for Lansdowne Park, sir. Poaching from other heritage facilities... pity. What doth this mean to the future of Upper Canada Village, pray tell? Lest they start hosting Viking Reenactments or maybe a Bacchanalia Festival, both well within their "new pioneer" mandate I'm sure, they will certainly fall onto hard times. :)

[umbria27]

Given that these arguments were coming from Bruce Firestone I was already discounting for self interest. Still, the 1 parking spot per 4 seats leaves us needing 6000 for a 24000 seat stadium. I don't know what the onsite parking capacity is now, but it doesn't look like we can afford to lose any there. If we add other buildings to the site, there's going to need to be a multistorey parking lot to replace the lost surface parking. Any architects here who can comment on Firestone's assertion that multistory parking lots inevitably create bottlenecks during mass exits?

Rocketfish, consider me chastized on the medieval fair proposal, how about more site appropriate historical recreations? Old time leatherhead football in the style of Conan's old time baseball piece (http://www.nbc.com/Late_Night_with_Conan_O%27Brien/video/clips/old-time-baseball-22009/1031781/)?

[Richard Eade]

Given that these arguments were coming from Bruce Firestone I was already discounting for self interest. Still, the 1 parking spot per 4 seats leaves us needing 6000 for a 24000 seat stadium. I don't know what the onsite parking capacity is now, but it doesn't look like we can afford to lose any there. If we add other buildings to the site, there's going to need to be a multistorey parking lot to replace the lost surface parking. Any architects here who can comment on Firestone's assertion that multistory parking lots inevitably create bottlenecks during mass exits?

Rocketfish, consider me chastized on the medieval fair proposal, how about more site appropriate historical recreations? Old time leatherhead football in the style of Conan's old time baseball piece (http://www.nbc.com/Late_Night_with_Conan_O%27Brien/video/clips/old-time-baseball-22009/1031781/)?
Any time large amounts of traffic (of any sort - trucks, cars, bicycles, pedestrians, or wheelchairs) needs to be funneled down to use a limited number of accesses, there can be back-ups.

Generally, in order to preserve as much space for parking as possible, multi-level parking facilities will have as few ramps as practical. This will probably cause a bottle-neck in traffic flow, but it might be the same restriction that would have happened at the limited number of gates out onto the surrounding roads. There can be ramps on all four sides and one in the middle of the garage if desired, but if everyone still needs to merge into two lanes to exit the park, then there is no real benefit to the extra ramps. I'm sure a consultant can tell us how the garage should be configured so that it is not the biggest problem.

I believe that the 'Live' proposal includes having the City build a multi-level parking structure.

[Radster]

Lets not forget about the hundreds of street parking spots that surround this site, not to mention the local residents who like to take advantage of big events at Lansdowne by charging people to park on their driveways and sometimes even their front lawns (as has been the case numerous times in the past).
Also, since the site is centrally located in Ottawa, many people will also walk or bike or take public transit, the percentage of such people will be WAY higher than SB Place for example.

As a result, 6,000 parking spot on-site is IMO way too many.

[AuxTown]

When the stones were here people were walking from Alta Vista, Old Ottawa South, Centretown, Hintonburg, and the Market. People from the 'burbs don't realize how easy it is to get around in central Ottawa; it is a very walkable/bikeable place. Needless to say, Lansdowne is probably the most central spot in all of Ottawa-Gatineau in terms of population spread in all directions, making it a deceivingly great place to disperse crowds.

[rocketphish]

Rocketfish, consider me chastized on the medieval fair proposal, how about more site appropriate historical recreations? Old time leatherhead football in the style of Conan's old time baseball piece (http://www.nbc.com/Late_Night_with_Conan_O%27Brien/video/clips/old-time-baseball-22009/1031781/)?

Very nice... I hadn't seen that! Do you think we could round up enough farmers, perhaps from the rural parts of the city, to participate? They'll all be driven off their land by the City's constant development expansion anyway, and will surely need something else to do.

[rocketphish]

A solution to city's Lansdowne problem
Naysayers have lost thread of story

By Randall Denley, The Ottawa Citizen, June 20, 2009


In the last few weeks, there has been so much uninformed criticism of the potential redevelopment of Lansdowne Park that it's easy to become confused about what's really going on. Maybe that's the idea.

We have been told that this is a sole-sourced deal, and a Carleton University business professor described that practice as "a type of corruption." A former federal government whistleblower suggested the deal is all about favouritism and connections. A group calling itself the Friends of Lansdowne Park says that the public is being shut out. Local NDP MP Paul Dewar said the city's process is so inappropriate that it's wrong to even talk to the federal government about granting money for Lansdowne. A former deputy leader of the Green Party agreed.

All this creates a mental picture of city staff and their developer cronies sitting in a back room somewhere smoking cigars and talking about how to cut up the cash.

What's really happening is that staff from the city, the National Capital Commission and Parks Canada are working with an array of consultants to turn the Lansdowne Live concept proposed by four prominent city businessmen into a plan that will truly benefit the public. Without the Lansdowne Live proposal, none of this would have happened.

People complaining about the deal's being sole-sourced have either misunderstood the process or lost the thread of the story. This is not a case where the city failed to call tenders on a project. It was approached by a group of local developers who knew what we all know, that the city has a crumbling football stadium and annual losses at Lansdowne. The developers have offered to manage the site and absorb any potential losses, return professional football to Ottawa, guarantee a fixed price on the government-funded reconstruction of Frank Clair Stadium and the Civic Centre and develop the unused Bank Street part of the site for retail and commercial uses.

Whether all of that adds up to a good deal for the city remains to be seen, but this much is clear. The city has a problem at Lansdowne and the developers are offering a solution. It wouldn't make sense to say yes or no to that solution without knowing the details of who really benefits, and how much. We will see all of that in late August. There will certainly be an opportunity then for the public and councillors to go over those details, ask questions and offer opinions. The city has not committed itself to going forward with the developers' plan.

While the process has been criticized for not being competitive, that's not really true. Surely people have not forgotten that councillors chose to explore the Lansdowne option despite a competing proposal for a professional soccer stadium in Kanata. The biggest part of the Lansdowne deal, reconstruction of the stadium, will also be put out to competitive tender. The good part for the city is that the developers are willing to guarantee the price. That transfers a major risk from the city if the renovation project goes over budget.

There is nothing to stop the city from seeking other bids to enhance Lansdowne, but it's fair to say that no other group is likely to offer all the elements that the Lansdowne Live group has put together. If councillors like the plan and think it's a good deal, they will have to decide whether seeking other options is worth the time and money. There is no lineup of other groups offering a competing vision.

The suggestion that no one from the city should be talking to the federal government about paying for the new stadium is nonsensical. If council ultimately approves the plan, work could start pretty quickly. Financing will be key and councillors will need to know where the federal and provincial governments stand.

If there is a sticking point in the deal, it's the rental revenues the developers will get from the buildings on the Bank Street side of the site. This money is meant to offset any losses from the football team, but the development group is reluctant to tell the public what kind of revenue it anticipates. That's a mistake, because it will create the impression that the developers are making a fortune at the public's expense.

The city is taking the appropriate steps to review in detail an intriguing offer from a respectable group of city business people. That's not corrupt or wrong. It's just common sense. If the opponents of Lansdowne Live want to condemn the plan, they should wait for the facts instead of making bogus arguments about the process.

Contact Randall Denley at 613-596-3756 or by e-mail, rdenley@thecitizen.canwest.com

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen


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[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Wow, Denley nailed it.

[AuxTown]

Thanks Randall, well said.....because I know you're a long-time lurker of this forum ;).