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  #861  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2008, 5:25 PM
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Originally Posted by erbsenzaehler View Post
As already stated, I'm a civil engineer

Anyway, thanks for the written support to some of you guys! I'm feeling like there'll be a rennaissance of classic architecture. A recognizable one! (It's already rollin' btw)
Modernists failed in so many ways. Most people just don't like their 'art'. So let those 'artists' build their glass phalusses and leave our historic city centers!

In any age, people were building how they felt to. Why not continue to do so and build what people call for?
Putting aside for now the aesthetic debates over skin, the Elysian - from a structural standpoint - is every bit a "modern" building, designed by an architect fully trained & versed in the ways of modernism. It is no more "gothic" or "classical" than Inland Steel in how it is assembled and in what keeps it up.

There are practicing neoclassicists in the region - see Notre Dame, Dean Mike Lykoudis, the Driehaus Prize etal - but I don't believe they've built in the Loop yet, certainly nothing on the scale of a skyscraper.
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  #862  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2008, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Eventually...Chicago View Post
I think that is because a classicist building is much easier to criticize because we have a frame of reference to compare it with. For example, if the elysian had columns with no capitals or an arch without a keystone, we could easily spot it as a defect and discredit the design decision, just as people are criticizing it here.

For a project like aqua or the spire, the expression matters more than the exact nature of the form. For example, if the spire turned a half a revolution less or more, there is very little you can criticize because in the end, the shape of the spire is a slightly arbitrary decision made to appeal to the architect's sensibility. Essentially, there are no pre-established rules that say the Gang needs to have 10 waves for every 10 stories. Now we do have different design iterations that allow us to compare a design against itself, but this is why design "thought process" is taught much more than it was in previous schools of architecture. Contemporary design is much more self-referential, which is very difficult to talk about.

With a more classical building like elysian, we have a long established body of work to compare the building against. And as many people have correctly pointed out, this building does lack some of the richness and harmony that we associate with this style.
Well, I appreciate that you have given me examples, but, as usual, you and I are approaching this from different angles and I still disagree. In any case, since this has nothing to do with this thread, I will fold and leave it at that.
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  #863  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2008, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by VivaLFuego View Post
... as someone not involved in development (I'm in the Planning/Finance side of things), this back and forth argument demonstrating the dynamic between architects and contractors is pretty interesting we just need an engineer to chime in now...
That's easy: The architects are a bunch of know-nothing, idealistic dreamers who just like to spend money for no good reason. The contractors are a bunch of dolts who just can't do what they're told. And when something really obvious goes wrong that no one can figure out, that's when the engineer gets called out to the job site.
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  #864  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2008, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbsenzaehler View Post
As already stated, I'm a civil engineer

Anyway, thanks for the written support to some of you guys! I'm feeling like there'll be a rennaissance of classic architecture. A recognizable one! (It's already rollin' btw)
Modernists failed in so many ways. Most people just don't like their 'art'. So let those 'artists' build their glass phalusses and leave our historic city centers!

In any age, people were building how they felt to. Why not continue to do so and build what people call for?
Because so called classical buildings of today aren't made or designed the way they used to be and developers don't have the balls to pay for the stone workers.

Modernist didn't fail, the population failed to catch on.

I'd never consider 660-680 N. LSD a failure, but I'd call rip-off buildings failures. They began to lack to detailing and artistry just like the current rip-off classical buildings.

For the most part building what people call for mean to build crap.

I rather have a glass phalus in my skyline than garbage.
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  #865  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2008, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by honte View Post
That's easy: The architects are a bunch of know-nothing, idealistic dreamers who just like to spend money for no good reason. The contractors are a bunch of dolts who just can't do what they're told. And when something really obvious goes wrong that no one can figure out, that's when the engineer gets called out to the job site.
its almost always safe to exalt engineering above other professions
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  #866  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2008, 12:29 AM
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Because so called classical buildings of today aren't made or designed the way they used to be and developers don't have the balls to pay for the stone workers.
Well, now they're being designed and built in a different way. Wasn't that easy?

Reminds me alot of people talking about other people doing 'unnatural' things, citing homosexuality or nuclear power plants or global warming or whatever. If people are doing it it has to be natural, by definition. It's not unnatural when a bee makes a hive.

A building can't be 'not of this time' or in a style that isn't suitable for the era if it's in the era. Calm down.

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Modernist didn't fail, the population failed to catch on.
I know nothing about architecture. I don't care to, I don't even know what modernism is, but that's laughable. That's like saying the XFL didn't fail, people failed to catch on. If it failed it failed and that's it.
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  #867  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2008, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by LucasS6 View Post
.....It's not unnatural when a bee makes a hive.....
But it is "unnatural" when a bee makes a bird's nest, or orders a latte at Starbucks, or draws up plans for a 700-ft concrete residential highrise with precast exterior panels. These activities are outside the "natural" abilities of the bee. So, what is the point? What if the bee makes its hive using reinforced concrete instead of wax, while keeping the hexadonal structure?

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Originally Posted by LucasS6 View Post
.....I know nothing about architecture. I don't care to, I don't even know what modernism is, but that's laughable.....
Might help to know what it is, though, if you're going to post something about it anyway in a thread where it is getting heavy discussion

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Originally Posted by LucasS6 View Post
A building can't be 'not of this time' or in a style that isn't suitable for the era if it's in the era. Calm down.
See, that second part of the quote - the "Calm down" bit - is just...wtf...annoying. Patronizing. There are moderators on board who will step in to intervene if someone needs to "calm down", and bvictor isn't anywhere near that point.

Last edited by wrab; Jun 26, 2008 at 3:32 AM.
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  #868  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2008, 12:59 AM
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Not really. Something failing to reach it's audience is a reason for it's failing, not an argument against it's failing.

And a bee has never built a bird's nest or ordered coffee, so it's moot. If it did do that, it'd be natural. By the same token, this building is a product of it's time and place, I don't understand how someone could argue against it. It's here, now. That's all that needs to be said.
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  #869  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2008, 1:15 AM
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Originally Posted by LucasS6 View Post
Not really. Something failing to reach it's audience is a reason for it's failing, not an argument against it's failing.

And a bee has never built a bird's nest or ordered coffee, so it's moot. If it did do that, it'd be natural. By the same token, this building is a product of it's time and place, I don't understand how someone could argue against it. It's here, now. That's all that needs to be said.
so...your point is that it's all good because it's all, like, natural & stuff? So what?
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  #870  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2008, 1:20 AM
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You can't follow a few quotes? If you can't understand exactly what I'm responding to, perhaps you should read up a few posts and practice your problem-solving skills.

I'll even give you a hint: The guy I was responding to? Look at the guy he was responding to. Put it together and imagine us all in a room having a conversation, if it helps.

If it doesn't, back away from the internet slowly.
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  #871  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2008, 1:24 AM
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Originally Posted by LucasS6 View Post
You can't follow a few quotes? If you can't understand exactly what I'm responding to, perhaps you should read up a few posts and practice your problem-solving skills.

I'll even give you a hint: The guy I was responding to? Look at the guy he was responding to. Put it together and imagine us all in a room having a conversation, if it helps.

If it doesn't, back away from the internet slowly.
No, thank you - I'd rather not do that

Last edited by wrab; Jun 26, 2008 at 1:43 AM.
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  #872  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2008, 1:40 AM
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okay one last bit of off topic humor and then i'll leave this thread permanently for greener pastures...

An architect is said to be someone who knows very little about a great deal, and continues to know less and less about more and more until they know nothing about everything.

An engineer is said to be someone who knows a great deal about very little and continues to know more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing.

A contractor starts off know a great deal about everything and ends up know nothing due to their association with architects and engineers.

i'm out
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  #873  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2008, 1:55 AM
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Originally Posted by VivaLFuego View Post
... as someone not involved in development (I'm in the Planning/Finance side of things), this back and forth argument demonstrating the dynamic between architects and contractors is pretty interesting we just need an engineer to chime in now...
What about what a developer might say? I'm not a developer but I imagine he would say: "Speak up please, I can't hear your criticism over the Ca-Ching!!"

According to YoChicago in March, 43 out of 51 condos are sold, ranging from $2.8 - 4.9Million. And only 50 of the 188 hotel condos are still available. It will house a new restaurant from charlie Trotter, and I'm sure the rest of the retail will get filled up by upscale boutiques.

This building is being built because there was a demand for it. There is an arguement, that I actaully heard, that there are some downtown condo buyers that don't want to live in something glassy and modern because it feels like an office.

What is a good example of a condo tower that might satisfy this buyer, but yet is still modern? (I'm honestly asking, I can't think of any right now). And I guess it doesn't even have to be modern, but what building would work for the buyer that wants homey, not glassy.
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  #874  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2008, 2:09 AM
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^ When you say "modern", do you mean "modern" as in "new" or "newish"?
If so, then any of Lagrange's other mansard-topped River North condo towers would probably fit the bill - Pinnacle, Fordham, etc. Or one of the new rehabs, like the Century of Progress or Britannica Towers.

Some of the new towers, while their skins are quite glassy, are actually conservative & "homey" on the inside, such as 600 N LSD.
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  #875  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2008, 2:31 AM
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Originally Posted by LucasS6 View Post
I know nothing about architecture. I don't care to, I don't even know what modernism is, but that's laughable. That's like saying the XFL didn't fail, people failed to catch on. If it failed it failed and that's it.
hah... yeah... it's exactly like that.
when did extreme football and architecture become analogous?
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  #876  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2008, 2:43 AM
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hah... yeah... it's exactly like that.
when did extreme football and architecture become analogous?
when analogies started becoming analogies
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  #877  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2008, 3:21 AM
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The passion this tower incites is hilarious and must be viewed as somewhat successful in its own right, though I doubt LaGrange intended for this to be so "controversial."
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  #878  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2008, 3:37 AM
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The passion this tower incites is hilarious "
I too am getting a big kick out of the commentary on this thread.

Some of this work [posting] is ...
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  #879  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2008, 4:58 AM
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Originally Posted by killaviews View Post
What is a good example of a condo tower that might satisfy this buyer, but yet is still modern? (I'm honestly asking, I can't think of any right now). And I guess it doesn't even have to be modern, but what building would work for the buyer that wants homey, not glassy.
Everything in this thread goes in cycles, so I believe somewhere back there I put in a detailed response to a question like this....

But, in short, I think many of the buyers I've talked to who dislike Modern aren't really turned off by the glass or the modernity of it. What they dislike, when you really start asking questions, is the sense of cookie-cutter housing, sterility, and blandness. They want something that has some character, that's the biggest issue.

As much as I love Miesian modernism, I realize that many people are not willing to limit their personal identity for the greater goal of living in a minimalist masterpiece. That's also part of the draw of Elysian-style buildings. Most people, as is clearly evidenced by this thread, don't really care about architecture or care to know much about architecture. But they like things that feel special to them, or give a sense of identity. Despite the fact that Elysian has repetitive floor plates for most of its living quarters, the added frills, setbacks, distinctive roof, little porte cochère area, etc, are enough to convince a lot of people. (For the people who love living in Miesian buildings, they identify with the building identity more than a personal expression of identity.)

In support of the above theory, I think you will notice a decline in the popularity of Modern boxes that falls closely into place with the growing dislike of cookie-cutter suburbs. Americans have grown weary and are now wary of mass production.

The above is not antithetical to modern design, particularly the many new breeds / branches of Modernism that are far less rigid than the Miesian or other subgenres that existed in the "pure days" of Modernism. (Eventually Chicago would debate me here, suggesting that what I refer to is a more technological version of the PostModern.) Gang's Aqua tower or the Calatrava to a certain extent are leaning in this direction, although I think they too are lean on the individualistic in deference to a uniform composition. But the aim is clear: Give each owner a unique slice of the sky. 340 on the Park has also been singled-out by critic Blair Kamin as a tower that people can "point to" and find their home within the overall composition.

There are many newer designers who are attempting to introduce individuality and more uniqueness to high-rise residential architecture. For the most part, these are working very well. The major drawback, of course, is cost. Usually these are very unique buildings and not many progressive architects are as pragmatic as Jeanne Gang has been in her towers. The result is that they tend to cater to the rich - but this is another reason why I fault the Elysian, because this is exactly the crowd that could have produced such a building.
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Last edited by honte; Jun 26, 2008 at 5:10 AM.
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  #880  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2008, 3:38 PM
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Question time, would it have made people happy to have the first half a dozen or so floors done with real stone? That way at street level you would get the touch and feel that you want, but once the eye looses track of the detail you could switch to the more practical building material. Could it have been the best of both worlds?
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