The Madison | ? | 11 fl | U/C

[SteelTown]

Rendering....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/dahammer/madison.jpg

Link: http://www.themadison.info/

Average asking price for each unit is $1 million.

[WhipperSnapper]

any updates? is a 2007 completion possible?

[matt602]

Nope. They've only just started putting in the windows.

[SteelTown]

Here's the latest article....

New condos have million-dollar view

http://www.thespec.com/images/assets/364480_3.JPG
Some units in Mountain-brow building cost $1m

October 22, 2007
Lisa Grace Marr
The Hamilton Spectator

The Madison is among the first complete million-dollar luxury condo buildings in Hamilton, but it certainly won't be the last.

Windows started going in on the 22-unit condo tower, which is perched on the Mountain brow on Mountain Park Avenue, tucked under quaint Concession Street quite near Henderson General Hospital.

"This is a growing trend, and many believe this is long overdue," said Dana Senagama, market analyst for Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp.

"Even in the downtown core, we should see some. They might be conversions (of old condos) or complete new builds."

The reason, said Senagama, is a growing number of aging boomers who who want to downsize but still want space and want to stay in their hometown.

"It's a niche market, and it's catering to affluent ... empty nesters who don't want the upkeep of a single detached home."

The average price of a condo in Hamilton in August was $171,935 according to MLS sales figures.

That may not change much in the immediate future. But Senagama said there will be an increasing mix of price points offered to Hamilton homebuyers as the boomers move through the market.

Marilyn Rickard, of the Enfield Group, project manager for The Madison, said the marketing campaign hasn't started yet but two have already sold. Prices range from $750,000 to $1 million and go on sale officially in November.

The project is expected to be finished in the spring.

Each unit is 2,400 square feet with three bedrooms and options of having a formal dining room, a library or den. The condos have sweeping views of the city from spectacular windows. Those views come, of course, from the great rooms.

Custom-built cabinets in the kitchen, slate floors, granite counters, fireplaces as well as access to Club Madison's gym are other luxury features.

"They're huge," said Rickard. "They have a magnificent view, and they'll sell.

"There are a lot of moneyed people in Hamilton who want to sell their large homes but don't want to move to a condo in Oakville or Burlington.

"They want to stay in Hamilton near their churches and families. If you've lived all your life in a big house, you may not want to move into a small condo."

[BCTed]

SteelTown, don't forget our little bet on this terrible project.

[raisethehammer]

how does this thing look from close-up?

It looks like CRAP from below the escarpment. Is it being stuccoed??

[flar]

When I was up there in October, it had white brick on the sides, glass on the front and they didn't have whatever facade would be between the windows on the front up yet.

[BCTed]

Any updates on how this piece of junk is (or is not) selling? I do believe that SteelTown and I had a bit of a bet on the go.

[raisethehammer]

I was on Concession the other day and decided to check it out.
So far it's coming along nicely. I was pleased to see that the entire outside was brick, not stucco like it appeared in the picture.
No clue on sales though.

[realcity]

this builder is very low pro. I saw him at the construction site a worker pointed him out to me. I introduced myself and said I would like to do a story and he had no comment. Not even willing to take advantage of free publicity. He's an older tall skinny gentleman with white all white hair. He's definitely not like one of our all-show, media hungry, local gang of developers or should I say non-developers/land speculators.

[realcity]

I wouldn't be so harsh on it. It's a great location, great big units, my only real criticism is the mech penthouse. It could've been housed in a postmod design instead of the modernist look now. It's not horrible, just not stand outish. I think it's representative of the builder's own personality, low profile but real money. I think the people that buy these units will appreciate that. It's Bentley Place for the Mountain. Bentley has million dollar units too.

[raisethehammer]

they spoke about this place on CHML today...apparently there is quite a large demand for units. I suppose we'll find out once it's finished.

[raisethehammer]

went for a walk along the brow the other day. boy, I'm impressed with this building more than I thought I would be.
huge windows, huge balconies, great floorplans, amazing view. I think it's going to be a good project.

[realcity]

I think it looks great from Concession, esp if your walking near the Movie Palace. The cluster of mid & low rises with The Mad overlooking and the great eclectic mix of houses. Its how a neighbourhood should be. All within walking distance of mini grocers, hardware, entertainment, healthcare destinations.

[DC83]

went for a walk along the brow the other day. boy, I'm impressed with this building more than I thought I would be.
huge windows, huge balconies, great floorplans, amazing view. I think it's going to be a good project.

I decided to walk home rather than bus it from my friend's place near Gage Park the other day. I opted to walk along the Maplewood/Delaware route as it's much better than the Main St Expy walk.

It was around 5pm, and the sun was just starting to fall into the west. I looked up at the mountain and was like, "Wow... what is that reflection coming from??" It was the Madison! Great, big wrap around windows and big balconies. It actually added to the Escarpment Skyline rather than killing it (like lots of other Escarpment-Edge 'Scrapers).

So I'm going to say I like this project so far... although I was against it in the beginning. Let's just see how it turns out. Hopefully the balconies have glass walls rather than metal. We'll see.

[BCTed]

Below is a link to the original discussion that SteelTown and I had concerning this project:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=3123300&highlight=madison#post3123300

And below is a copy of the post that had most of the details surrounding the "bet" that SteelTown and I made. I place the word in quotation marks because I am not certain that ST ever actually accepted it as a bet. Regardless, his expectation was that about two-thirds of all units would have been sold (under the original pricing scheme --- I was very skeptical and believed that prices would go down) within six months' time. Given that the posts were made on October 23, we are only three weeks away from the deadline.

Does anyone have any ideas on how many units have been sold to this point and under what pricing scheme?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
POST FROM OCTOBER 23, 2007:



I say within 6 months 2/3 of the units will be sold out. Remember all the townhouses at Beach Blvd sold out in pre-sales in like 2 months, again geared towards seniors. Seniors are and will change the housing market.

I do not know anything about these Beach Blvd. townhouses, but I doubt that they had prices anywhere near the Madison's "Pricing from $827,500 to $980,500."

2/3 of 22 is approximately 14 --- so 12 more units will have to be sold within six months under the current pricing scheme for you to be right --- 2 a month. I will happily take that bet, but I am not sure if we will have any regular updates on sales and/or prices.



Also when the baby boomers were adults Hamilton Mountain was brand spanking new development so majority of these baby boomers are Mountaineers that raised their families on the Mountain.

So there are aging people on Hamilton Mountain who might be looking for condo-like digs --- great. Very few of them could afford $800K+, so you are starting with probably a pretty limited prospect universe. When you factor in the fact that only a small percentage of these people would ever seriously consider the Madison in specific (and only two have made purchases to this point), it is pretty clear that this project is nowhere near a slam dunk.

[JT Jacobs]

No idea how sales are going. I will say that the developers own a heck of alot of parking lots surrounding the Downtown. If this project tanks, you can bet they will be staying in the parking lot business.

BTW, RTH go fuck yourself.

Easy does it, Turbo.

What say we have a return to rational discourse on all matters urban, with, perhaps, a little more urbanity?

[beanmedic]

No idea how sales are going. I will say that the developers own a heck of alot of parking lots surrounding the Downtown. If this project tanks, you can bet they will be staying in the parking lot business.

BTW, RTH go fuck yourself.

There is no need for that. That's a lot like what BCTed said to me a few days ago.

[BCTed]

NEWS TO EVERYONE...

I AM NOT THE SAME GUY AS BCTED OR ANYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD.

I think the reason RTH suspects this is because he is a big enough loser to contemplate doing something that silly. There are people in this forum that can actually think for themselves and don't get bullied into new urbanist dogma.

This is true. We are not the same person.

[BCTed]

There is no need for that. That's a lot like what BCTed said to me a few days ago.

I said nothing of the sort.

[raisethehammer]

Lol...well this is going nowhere in a hurry. Sorry folks. Hopefully there is a '3 f-bombs and you're out' rule on this site.
Back to the Madison.

[beanmedic]

Goldfinger's posts have been deleted.

Anyhow, I recently went by this place and it is looking a lot better then the rendering I think. Great view from the top I imagine.

[BCTed]

What happened in here? A ton of posts are gone.

I am going to assume that nobody has any idea on how sales have been for this building.

[beanmedic]

What happened in here? A ton of posts are gone.

I am going to assume that nobody has any idea on how sales have been for this building.

They have been deleted by a moderator. Just like how your posts in the other thread were edited by a moderator.

[coalminecanary]

I heard from an agent that they are sold out. Let me see if I can find out more.

[BCTed]

I heard from an agent that they are sold out. Let me see if I can find out more.

Wow, that would be quite something.... I can't say that I believe it.

[HAMRetrofit]

Why not call the sales office or drop by for a tour if you are so interested. The clone of this thing built in West Hamilton sold out with no trouble. I don't see why this location would have any difference, especially with how starved Hamilton is now for quality condos.

Lets hope the next one uses some more original design.

[HAMRetrofit]

I could see the concession street area growing a large luxury condo market one day. The view from their is unreal.

[BCTed]

Why not call the sales office or drop by for a tour if you are so interested. The clone of this thing built in West Hamilton sold out with no trouble. I don't see why this location would have any difference, especially with how starved Hamilton is now for quality condos.

Lets hope the next one uses some more original design.

I don't know the sales office number and I am not interested enough to actually take a tour.

Which West Ham clone is that? Is it a building with million dollar price tags attached to the units?

[the dude]

main west, on the way to ancaster. they're not million dollar condos but i believe they're in the $300,000-$500,000 range.

[HAMRetrofit]

Typing the questions you have regarding the building in this thread takes more time than a phone call. If you don't trust coalmine than don't you think you should verify for yourself.

I forget the Westham condo name, I think that units are up to 650-750 thousand there. The building is over ten years old now I believe. So a million+ on concession seems right.

[raisethehammer]

guys....don't bother. When the building sells out we'll all have to listen to some incoherent argument why Ted knew it would sell out and has been misinterpreted again, blah blah blah....don't feed the troll.

[BCTed]

guys....don't bother. When the building sells out we'll all have to listen to some incoherent argument why Ted knew it would sell out and has been misinterpreted again, blah blah blah....don't feed the troll.

I admit to being wrong when I am wrong, unlike some people. If it sells out all units in the 800K to 1MM price range, I will concede the bet.

As I have stated a few times now, I have accorded you far more respect than you have deserved, but your bank of goodwill has run out. Quit being such a dick.

[raisethehammer]

Quit wasting our time, troll.

[Tony]

Knock it off, all of you.

[raisethehammer]

sorry Tony and everyone else...I'll keep things on topic.

[BCTed]

sorry Tony and everyone else...I'll keep things on topic.

Apology conditionally accepted.

[raisethehammer]

anyone find out how many units have sold in this project??

[SteelTown]

Give me a phone number and I'll call a sales agent.

[flar]

I don't know who handles their sales, but the project is owned by the Enfield Group, telephone: (905) 689 - 7341

Or try Famleigh Management Services Limited 905-689-7341.

[SteelTown]

Okay I'll try those numbers in a bit, still too early in the morning.

[raisethehammer]

the website is under construction...no info there.

[SteelTown]

Enfield number is automated so I'll have to leave a message, not about to leave a phone number to a sales agent lol.

[BCTed]

I am not sure how honest they will be unless they are completely sold out (which I highly doubt). I imagine that they may tell you that only a few units are left and that you have to act quickly to get in on the action.

[Goldfinger]

I am not sure how honest they will be unless they are completely sold out (which I highly doubt). I imagine that they may tell you that only a few units are left and that you have to act quickly to get in on the action.

That's the oldest RE marketing trick in the book. I remember when the Trump tower condos were first selling in Toronto, the sign said "over 50% sold!" in the first month.

Of course they technically were telling the truth, the Ritz Carlton bought a 50% interest for the Hotel.

[Ancaster observer]

In a passing conversation, a friend in the construction business told me that the rumor mill has the Madison having financial trouble. The project has had few additional sales since the original 2 announced last fall. A typical condo project using conventional lending would undertake a pre sale program prior to construction. Thresholds would be 60 to 75% sold prior to funding, in tough times higher.
In this instance, the tall skinny gentleman referenced earlier, might have been a speculator who funded the construction. It was guessed that conventional financing was used as well, and the lender has called.
He guessed lawyers are circling.
If you go to the promotors web site, the page for marketing is not working, "under construction"
I cannot warranty any accuracy of the foregoing.

[BCTed]

In a passing conversation, a friend in the construction business told me that the rumor mill has the Madison having financial trouble. The project has had few additional sales since the original 2 announced last fall. A typical condo project using conventional lending would undertake a pre sale program prior to construction. Thresholds would be 60 to 75% sold prior to funding, in tough times higher.
In this instance, the tall skinny gentleman referenced earlier, might have been a speculator who funded the construction. It was guessed that conventional financing was used as well, and the lender has called.
He guessed lawyers are circling.
If you go to the promotors web site, the page for marketing is not working, "under construction"
I cannot warranty any accuracy of the foregoing.

I can believe it!

[raisethehammer]

no kidding...you only believe in bad news for Hamilton.
the poster put the title "rumour" at the top of this comment. Make a call and find out how many units are left for sale.

[the dude]

In a passing conversation, a friend in the construction business told me that the rumor mill has the Madison having financial trouble. The project has had few additional sales since the original 2 announced last fall. A typical condo project using conventional lending would undertake a pre sale program prior to construction. Thresholds would be 60 to 75% sold prior to funding, in tough times higher.
In this instance, the tall skinny gentleman referenced earlier, might have been a speculator who funded the construction. It was guessed that conventional financing was used as well, and the lender has called.
He guessed lawyers are circling.
If you go to the promotors web site, the page for marketing is not working, "under construction"
I cannot warranty any accuracy of the foregoing.

talk about cryptic. i feel as though i should have read this post in a whisper.

[BCTed]

no kidding...you only believe in bad news for Hamilton.
the poster put the title "rumour" at the top of this comment. Make a call and find out how many units are left for sale.

I know what the poster put up. I am sure that there are plenty of units remaining, if it is not all of them.

I believe in what my head tells me. I do not believe that this project has sold well or will sell well at the $800K - $1 MM price range, nor do I believe in Harry Stinson, whether he is in Toronto or in Hamilton or in Timbuktu. I believe that there are a lot of sketchy people in downtown Hamilton. I believe that McMaster students effectively treat Westdale as their downtown. Any reasonably objective person would also believe these things. That does not mean that I do not wish Hamilton well.

[raisethehammer]

I know where to find one sketchy person at least....

[BCTed]

I know where to find one sketchy person at least....

Do tell.

[HAMRetrofit]

I know what the poster put up. I am sure that there are plenty of units remaining, if it is not all of them.

I believe in what my head tells me. I do not believe that this project has sold well or will sell well at the $800K - $1 MM price range, nor do I believe in Harry Stinson, whether he is in Toronto or in Hamilton or in Timbuktu. I believe that there are a lot of sketchy people in downtown Hamilton. I believe that McMaster students effectively treat Westdale as their downtown. Any reasonably objective person would also believe these things. That does not mean that I do not wish Hamilton well.

I am bullish on downtown Hamilton right now. It is ripe for property speculation. I am convinced that Concession Street will develop an up scale condo market over the the next tens years. I don't believe in the peanut gallery's idea that this project will fail. The expensive units are sold already. I am bullish on Harry Stinson. I think he will generate some kind of buzz to stimulate the condo market. Hamilton will intensify according to the places to grow documents which calls for 200 persons and jobs per acre. There are no more sketchy people downtown than in any other major city. Referring to these people as sketchy is discrimination pure and simple. McMaster students do not consider Westdale downtown. If anything they may consider Hess Village downtown. Westdale to them is the street with the print shop and a few places to grab food or drinks. No reasonable person that has any understanding of cities what-so-ever would continue to make comments like the ones you continue to post.

If you wish Hamilton well please explain how? If you can't give a reason then please stop posting in these threads. Your comments continue to add nothing to the discourse whatsoever. You come of as rude and pretentious.

[BCTed]

I am bullish on downtown Hamilton right now. It is ripe for property speculation.

Great.

I am convinced that Concession Street will develop an up scale condo market over the the next tens years. I don't believe in the peanut gallery's idea that this project will fail. The expensive units are sold already. All of the units are expensive and have been priced in a relatively tight range. The only evidence I have seen of any units selling is the statement in the paper a few months ago that two units had been sold, and I am not even entirely convinced that that was true. Most of the units should have been pre-sold before a shovel was even placed in the ground.

I am bullish on Harry Stinson. I think he will generate some kind of buzz to stimulate the condo market.
Fine. I am not bullish on Harry Stinson given what I know about him.


Hamilton will intensify according to the places to grow documents which calls for 200 persons and jobs per acre.
Great.

There are no more sketchy people downtown than in any other major city. Referring to these people as sketchy is discrimination pure and simple.
I can call them what another poster called them, and that is "grubs". Anyone who argues that downtown Hamilton has no higher a proportion of "grubs" than any other city is either blind or lying.

Recognizing them as "grubs" is not really discrimination. Not wanting to hang out with these people or invite them to my house would be discrimination, and in that case, I am happy to discriminate. While there are possible exceptions, I generally would not invite these people over for dinner.

You accuse me of discrimination, but do not do the same of raisethehammer. He has shown himself to be a true bigot when it comes to discussing downtown people versus "suburbanites". I do not even really understand what it is that he goes on about. He rails against people from Ancaster, the mountain, et cetera, and acts as if they are somehow beneath him. He does this while claiming to be a Hamilton booster.

It is not just suburbanites that RTH complains about, but huge swaths of other Hamiltonians: politicians, developers, LIUNA, the news media, anyone who writes a letter to the paper with which he does not agree, et cetera. "Only in Hamilton" and "morons" are two items that I hear all of the time.

McMaster students do not consider Westdale downtown. If anything they may consider Hess Village downtown. Westdale to them is the street with the print shop and a few places to grab food or drinks.

It is fair to say that many students consider Hess Village downtown, but that does not mean that I am incorrect. I have heard students refer to Westdale as downtown or say that they are "going to town" when leaving campus to go there. Students can go to Westdale for:
- banking
- a pub
- coffee shops
- print shops
- a bookstore
- laundry facilities
- a movie theatre
- grocery shopping

Many do not go further than Westdale for these things, so it is effectively downtown for them.

No reasonable person that has any understanding of cities what-so-ever would continue to make comments like the ones you continue to post.

I am no expert on cities or city-building and I do qualify most things I say as opinion, but I am not sure what it is that I say that displays the apparently complete lack of understanding on my part.

With the way raisethehammer posts, you would think that he was an expert on everything. I have seen no evidence that he has special knowledge on any subject matter concerning anything other than the city of Portland. I am not sure what brought RTH to Portland, but I am pretty sure that he played no part in building that city.


You come of as rude and pretentious. The treatment I have received from some people is far worse than the treatment I have given. I have not cussed or thrown around any negative language. The worst I have done is called raisethehammer a "jerk" and a "dick", and I believe that he is both of those things.

I must admit that I did get a huge kick out of tricking RTH and some of my other detractors into believing that I was Goldfinger. RTH bought it hook, line, and sinker, which I found really fun. It may have been rude playing him for a fool, but it was also irresistible. Watching all of the subsequent fallout was also really fun.

If you wish Hamilton well please explain how? If you can't give a reason then please stop posting in these threads. Your comments continue to add nothing to the discourse whatsoever.

I was born and raised in the city of Hamilton and have spent a lifetime defending it and hoping to see its profile raised from armpit status. I went to McMaster full-time for seven years and have a vested interest in seeing it maintain or improve its profile. I get as excited as anyone when I see new construction in the city, whether it is downtown or in the "suburbs". I have been so obsessive in the past about the Tiger-Cats that I used to commit entire seasons' worth of dates, scores, and attendances to memory. I wish to goodness to see an NHL team come to town one day. I was pissed when Halifax dropped the ball on its Commonwealth Games bid after eliminating Hamilton from contention. I like to point out that Tim Hortons started in Hamilton --- my father quite possibly holds the record for most lifetime cups of Tim's coffee consumed. I love Jackson Square and the Eaton/City Centre and I wish that it was a super-complex filled to the brim with worthwhile retailers. I really like Wal-Mart and Starbucks and Lime Ridge Mall, I fully understand MEC's choice to move to Burlington, I am unsure about light rail, I do not like seeing so many "grubs" downtown, I think that the Madison condos are way overpriced, and I do not see Harry Stinson and two way streets as the solution --- so sue me.

I am getting tired of being attacked for anything and everything that I post, so now may be a good time to go on a hiatus for a couple of weeks. Enjoy the BCTed-free vacation while it lasts.

[HAMRetrofit]

Okay BCTed, take a few weeks off. In that time try to do a little reading. Try reading Jane Jacob's Death and Life of Great American Cities, Robert Venturi's Complexity and Contradiction, and maybe Rem Koolhaus' Delirious New York. After having read these books you will have a better handle on contemporary urbanism. Check out http://www.pir.gov.on.ca/english/index.html to see how population and infrastructure growth will occur in Ontario over the next 25 years.

These threads are geared towards, urbanism. Skyscrapers are a by product of the economic conditions of cities.

One thing to try to understand is that to raise the status of Hamilton, the downtown needs to be resurrected. All successful cities in the world have healthy, vibrant downtowns, without them there is no thieving commercial and cultural base for the city. Hamilton does not have the basic infrastructure such as public spaces and transit to facilitate this. Its infrastructure of surface parking lots and one way streets are an impairment to business, in the urban sense. So raisethehammer's frustration is justified, because like many things, prolonging the existence of over designed one way streets is not compatible with a healthy thriving downtown. Time and time again they are proven to be an overall economic vacuum.

If you want to lift the status and attract the teams and venues you discuss, raising the caliber of downtown is certainly the best way to stimulate reinvestment. If the status of downtown is not raised the people you refer to as 'grubs' will continue to sink the image of Hamilton for people like yourself. Toronto actually has more 'grubs' per capita, it does not show because other groups are so well integrated. Hamilton has overloaded services for them into a very small area of the city close to downtown. This is why they have an overwhelming presence there.

In central Ontario you need to realize that suburban develop will be tightly constrained over the next 25 years. It is understandable that there are many that enjoy this suburban way of life. It has consequences that cannot be sustained. I point to the credit crisis in the US as one potential outcome. This is partly why public documents and policy are trying to curb its expansion. All and all, go on enjoying your suburban dream while it lasts, but please in the mean time try to appreciate the dreams that others are working towards. Thanks and have a wonderful vacation from SPF.

[raisethehammer]

HamRetrofit - you're my new hero. Let's enjoy a few weeks of proper Hamilton-based discourse and ideas.
I love how many times BCTed used the response "great" in that lame rebuttal. haha....

Back to the Madison, I wonder what the deal is with their website. It was always lame, now it's 'under construction' again???

[Goldfinger]

HamRetrofit - you're my new hero. Let's enjoy a few weeks of proper Hamilton-based discourse and ideas.
I love how many times BCTed used the response "great" in that lame rebuttal. haha....

Back to the Madison, I wonder what the deal is with their website. It was always lame, now it's 'under construction' again???

Don't you wonder why nobody on this forum can take an idiot like you seriously?

[HAMRetrofit]

My guess is that they are revising floor plans to cater to different unit types. They might also be revising the building's marketing based on speculation from people who have expressed interest in it. They will probably revise lower levels to include one bedroom and bachelor units. Luxury units usually snatch up the upper levels. They are a harder sell closer to grade. I still believe that there is a solid market for Luxury units in this neighborhood, but they will be limited to the best space in these buildings.

[BCTed]

Okay BCTed, take a few weeks off. In that time try to do a little reading. Try reading Jane Jacob's Death and Life of Great American Cities, Robert Venturi's Complexity and Contradiction, and maybe Rem Koolhaus' Delirious New York. After having read these books you will have a better handle on contemporary urbanism. Check out http://www.pir.gov.on.ca/english/index.html to see how population and infrastructure growth will occur in Ontario over the next 25 years.

These threads are geared towards, urbanism. Skyscrapers are a by product of the economic conditions of cities.

One thing to try to understand is that to raise the status of Hamilton, the downtown needs to be resurrected. All successful cities in the world have healthy, vibrant downtowns, without them there is no thieving commercial and cultural base for the city. Hamilton does not have the basic infrastructure such as public spaces and transit to facilitate this. Its infrastructure of surface parking lots and one way streets are an impairment to business, in the urban sense. So raisethehammer's frustration is justified, because like many things, prolonging the existence of over designed one way streets is not compatible with a healthy thriving downtown. Time and time again they are proven to be an overall economic vacuum.

If you want to lift the status and attract the teams and venues you discuss, raising the caliber of downtown is certainly the best way to stimulate reinvestment. If the status of downtown is not raised the people you refer to as 'grubs' will continue to sink the image of Hamilton for people like yourself. Toronto actually has more 'grubs' per capita, it does not show because other groups are so well integrated. Hamilton has overloaded services for them into a very small area of the city close to downtown. This is why they have an overwhelming presence there.

In central Ontario you need to realize that suburban develop will be tightly constrained over the next 25 years. It is understandable that there are many that enjoy this suburban way of life. It has consequences that cannot be sustained. I point to the credit crisis in the US as one potential outcome. This is partly why public documents and policy are trying to curb its expansion. All and all, go on enjoying your suburban dream while it lasts, but please in the mean time try to appreciate the dreams that others are working towards. Thanks and have a wonderful vacation from SPF.

I am all for the improvement of downtown Hamilton. I do not have a "suburban dream." The notion that I am somehow pro-suburb/anti-downtown is a piece of total fiction created and perpetuated by raisethehammer, apparently because it somehow helps him to make sense of the world.

[BCTed]

HamRetrofit - you're my new hero. Let's enjoy a few weeks of proper Hamilton-based discourse and ideas.
I love how many times BCTed used the response "great" in that lame rebuttal. haha....


You are a real piece of work. I used the word "Great" twice because I had no quarrel with HAMRetrofit on those specific pieces --- they were not points of contention. I was happy to hear that he is bullish on Hamilton. I also used the word "Fine" in reply to his bullishness towards Harry Stinson... I respect his opinion on that subject but I do not agree with it.

I made a mistake in hitting the refresh button on this page because it led me see nothing other than you taking the low road yet again. I won't make the same mistake again for a while --- I am temporarily removing this site from my bookmarks. Enjoy your wonderful discourse.

BCTed over and out.

[raisethehammer]

Later.

[ihateittoo]

ahhhh... I can't wait to grow up and, when I do, realize that there is only one opinion out there and it is my own. Then when others beg to differ I'll attack the person or the ideas without any finesse or understanding. I will be an idealist and stubborn to my ways. I will generalize and catergorize everything rigidly. I'll claim that I want the world or even my local community to be a better place - but I will not concede or compromise anything. I will fight on the internet over personal viewpoints and somehow try to show that either my over-obundant optomism or my unmoving pessimistic realism is the true and right way - all others are dinosaurs or young minds out of touch.

ie. this whole thing is getting old on all sides.

[hamiltonguy]

Westdale is not downtown to Mac students.

Not all the Banks have Westdale branches, the movie theatre shows only a limited range of movies, the library is small, there's not that many watering holes, and the shopping for non-foodstuffs is expensive (ie. the Villager).

Most Mac Students do not regard Westdale as downtown, but as a neighbourhood area.

[rousseau]

As a regular lurker and occasional poster to this board, I'd much rather that it was raisethehammer that was taking a sabbatical if we were choosing among members.

Note to raisethehammer: You don't agree with BCTed, we get it. How about keeping your criticisms substantive and avoiding the ad hominem? I myself may not agree with everything BCTed says here, but I find him to be a valuable contributor.

[Ancaster observer]

Re. the Madison.
The floor plans would have been set when the concrete was poured.
You cannot go back and alter a building with 2 suites per floor into some other configuration. The mechanical costs would be prohibitive. They are stuck with what is there.
This building will be occupied someday, but it is possible that the price points have not worked. Mark the units to market, they will move eventually. Will it be a profitable venture? Time and financial costs eat returns. It was clearly foolish to build without pre selling. Purchasers can now dictate pricing, a profitable waiting game.
I reviewed the MLS web site for other high priced condo's in the Hamilton area.
The listing photography indicated empty units. If these are held by speculators, pricing will weaken by the month.
A call to the Madison marketing agent, Gilliane Shaver at Chase Realty in Ancaster might provide insight into the status of this project. Her web site indicates "only 20 luxurious apartments" Given that the building has 22 suites according to The Hamilton Spectator, if her site is accurate, a possible inference is the 2 mentioned in the press as sold last year might be the sum total of the sales. In the meantime she is representing units in Ancaster that are priced at a fraction of the Madison ask prices. The pricing is $270 plus a foot. (they are pre selling)
The building, The Stonegate has a web site that works by the way.
The skinny white haired gentleman might wish he was in Madison Wisconsin.
At least the name would work there.

[HAMRetrofit]

Ancaster Observer the floorplans may not necessarily have been set by the time concrete was poured. It depends on the type of construction of the building and type of mechanical system chosen. There is some flexibility from my experience in condos where the interior walls are non load bearing. In near grade units some flexibility is often designed in to revise units based on sales. Cost of revision is prohibitive, but in this case the developers were likely over optimistic selling the same high priced luxury units near grade.

Regarding the Ancaster condos, lets face it is Ancaster. The views will not be nearly as fantastic. The location will be in an overbuilt and obtrusive subdivision, where condos often act primarily as density carriers for overbuilt tract houses. The lower cost suburban condo gets thrown in to meet planning densities and do not often attract high value sales. The Concession Street condos will be close proximity to the more robust amenities Hamilton offers, and is closer to major employment areas (Henderson Hospital and Downtown). In principle, we are really comparing apples to oranges here, low rise suburban without views vs. high rise urban with views.

[i_am_hydrogen]

Don't you wonder why nobody on this forum can take an idiot like you seriously?

These types of responses are totally immature and unproductive.

Consider this a general warning to all of you, since this thread has become increasingly problematic: The next person to issue any type of personal insult whatsoever will have his/her account suspended. It isn't that difficult to have a discussion without constantly resorting to childish name-calling.

[LikeHamilton]

Pictures taken 17 April 2008

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/550/img4436uz5.jpg

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/4382/img4441th1.jpg

[DC83]

too bad the design is so generic! But look at those penthouse's terraces! Wow! If only I had $800,000... then I'd prolly buy a house in Druand! hehe

[the dude]

craptastic.

i could give you a list of 800,000 other things i'd rather spend my money on.

[Berklon]

I'd really like to see what the inside looks like when it's all done. As it stands right now, it's not looking like an 800k condo.

[JT Jacobs]

It looks like project housing of the seventies. It needs way more windows. The best condos now are done entirely in glass, especially ones with tremendous views like this one has. So sad. I wouldn't pay $300,000 for one of these units.

I do hope that this strip becomes condo developed, though. With more contemporary styles, that is.

[DC83]

It looks like project housing of the seventies. It needs way more windows. The best condos now are done entirely in glass, especially ones with tremendous views like this one has. So sad. I wouldn't pay $300,000 for one of these units.

My bldg is from the 70's and has way more windows... and great views... and two-bed, 1000 sq.ft. units sell for $125,000-130,000. Granted the Madison's units are probably about twice the size of mine w/ privare elevator access. but what other amenities does this bldg offer?

It's way over-priced for the lack of any amenities. I'm scared to see what their condo fees are :s

[raisethehammer]

pretty bland design.
More windows would have been nice, although if you walk up to the building in person you can really see how large the windows are. lots of huge bay windows.
still, $800,000?? interior better be stunning.

[BCTed]

craptastic.

i could give you a list of 800,000 other things i'd rather spend my money on.

Agreed.

[realcity]

I'm still waiting to see the HPL panels, hopefully they'll be glass/mirror or something reflective.

The biggest dissapointment for me is the mech penthouse, this should've been housed in an architecutural pinnacle.

Secondly the total boxiness

Up close the windows do look large esp facing the city.

[JT Jacobs]

I'm still waiting to see the HPL panels, hopefully they'll be glass/mirror or something reflective.

The biggest dissapointment for me is the mech penthouse, this should've been housed in an architecutural pinnacle.

Secondly the total boxiness

Up close the windows do look large esp facing the city.

How about the exposed parking? Utterly ridiculous for units priced upwards of $800K. Really, how cheap. This is not lost on the potential condo buyer.

For $800K you could get quite the unit in Toronto, and I guarantee the views would be superior (of the skyline and/or the lake).

Really, I hate to continue bashing this project, but it's just so shoddy. If the units were more reasonably priced, appropriate to the market, then I'd shut up. I honestly hope this developer takes a bath for his/her greed.

[markbarbera]

The parking isn't exposed. Garage entrance on west side of building, the east side is a covered curbside approach to the entrance.

[JT Jacobs]

The parking isn't exposed. Garage entrance on west side of building, the east side is a covered curbside approach to the entrance.

Ah, okay--I stand corrected.

[the dude]

still can't get over how they've been priced. $400K...ya, i could see that but $800K to $1 million? if they're successful it'll say something quite significant about the market in hamilton.

[Ancaster observer]

Great quality photo's.
Did it appear that there was any work occurring the site?
Was there any marketing, such as a show suite available?
Thanks.

[LikeHamilton]

Great quality photo's.
Did it appear that there was any work occurring the site?
Was there any marketing, such as a show suite available?
Thanks.

There where lots of people working on the site. Drywallers and painters could be seen inside. Plumber’s and electrician’s vehicles could be seen parked at the site. There was no sign of sales other than signs on the building.

[WhipperSnapper]

completed?

[matt602]

I think so, yes. I don't get up that way ever though, so I'm not sure.

[drpgq]

I jogged by last week and it seems pretty much done. I even saw a car drive out of the underground parking, so maybe someone has already moved in.

[realcity]

sort of off topic... but since we're talking about mtn scrapers. Has anyone noticed that El Mirador (tallest on the mountain) has enclosed the balconies with some glass. Looks good. I'll have to take a photo and revise the drawing.

[SteelTown]

Gotta be Effort Trust's building. They have been doing a lot of balconies repair across the City, with glass.

[LikeHamilton]

CHCH had a story on the Noon News about the Madison. It is now ready for sale. There are only 20 units available and 3 are sold including the 2 largest and most expensive on the top floor. There are only 2 units per floor on 10 floors. They will be having a tour of the building on tonight’s (Feb 10) 6pm news.

[flar]

They're just selling them now? Strange, I thought this building was completed months ago. I'm not sure how the developers can make money holding an empty building that long, hopefully they sell quickly.

[LikeHamilton]

They start around $850,000.

[Dundasguy]

...And finish under Power of Sale

[BCTed]

SteelTown, I think I was correct on this one.

Below is a link to the original discussion that SteelTown and I had concerning this project:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=3123300&highlight=madison#post3123300

And below is a copy of the post that had most of the details surrounding the "bet" that SteelTown and I made. I place the word in quotation marks because I am not certain that ST ever actually accepted it as a bet. Regardless, his expectation was that about two-thirds of all units would have been sold (under the original pricing scheme --- I was very skeptical and believed that prices would go down) within six months' time. Given that the posts were made on October 23, we are only three weeks away from the deadline.

Does anyone have any ideas on how many units have been sold to this point and under what pricing scheme?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
POST FROM OCTOBER 23, 2007:



I say within 6 months 2/3 of the units will be sold out. Remember all the townhouses at Beach Blvd sold out in pre-sales in like 2 months, again geared towards seniors. Seniors are and will change the housing market.

I do not know anything about these Beach Blvd. townhouses, but I doubt that they had prices anywhere near the Madison's "Pricing from $827,500 to $980,500."

2/3 of 22 is approximately 14 --- so 12 more units will have to be sold within six months under the current pricing scheme for you to be right --- 2 a month. I will happily take that bet, but I am not sure if we will have any regular updates on sales and/or prices.



Also when the baby boomers were adults Hamilton Mountain was brand spanking new development so majority of these baby boomers are Mountaineers that raised their families on the Mountain.

So there are aging people on Hamilton Mountain who might be looking for condo-like digs --- great. Very few of them could afford $800K+, so you are starting with probably a pretty limited prospect universe. When you factor in the fact that only a small percentage of these people would ever seriously consider the Madison in specific (and only two have made purchases to this point), it is pretty clear that this project is nowhere near a slam dunk.

[MsMe]

Million-dollar condos unveiled

February 11, 2009
Lisa Marr
The Hamilton Spectator
Hamilton’s never seen anything like it.

Today marks the unveiling of The Madison, Hamilton’s first million-dollar condo development.

Keltie Law, real estate agent for the project, said so far three of the 20 units in the Mountain complex have sold, with a fourth on reserve.

Prices for the 2,400-square-foot units range from $850,000 to $1.2 million.

“We haven’t even marketed these yet.”

The complex sits on Mountain Park Avenue near Concession and Upper Wentworth.

All of the units feature lake views, private elevators, security systems, and touches such as granite countertops, attractive architectural details and high-end appliances.


http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/511601

[SteelTown]

This is geared more towards doctors with St Joe's and Henderson right next door.

The Mountain's million-dollar view
Sneak peek at luxury condos on the Brow

February 12, 2009
Lisa Grace Marr
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Business/article/512151

After the doors were flung open on the Madison in a swank unveiling last night, one thing was clear: the Mountain will never be the same.

That's exactly what Greg Fraleigh, president of Enfield Group Inc., had in mind when he built the 10-storey bank of 20 condos, 2,400 square feet with panoramic views of the city below. Prices range from $850,000 to $1.25 million.

Keltie Law, the Royal LePage agent selling the units, said three units have sold so far, with one reserved. According to the brochure, all of those are on the top three floors, with the biggest price tags.

Law is confident the condos will sell, recession or not. "Hamilton's never seen anything like it."

Sarah Fong agrees.

The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation senior market analyst said that while there are some similar developments in Burlington and Toronto, there is a market for luxury condos in the city.

"There will always be people not susceptible to these kinds of changes in the market. Hamilton does have a large population with a lot of baby boomers looking to downsize."

Fraleigh is sure of it.

"We've been frustrated because Hamiltonians who have worked here, raised their families and made friends have to leave the city and move to Oakville or Toronto to find a luxury condo."

His company manages about 60 condo developments in southern Ontario and from that, he knew what people want (storage and parking) and what they don't want (swimming pool) in a luxury condo.

The Madison delivers opulence without ostentation. There are closets as big as some offices, marble and hardwood floors that gleam, chandeliers that twinkle. Each unit comes with a double fridge with freezers, double ovens, laundry room, private elevator, library, fireplace, generous bathrooms and a 404-square-foot balcony from which to enjoy that view.

Fraleigh's roots are deep in Hamilton. His grandfather and father were both in the development business. He said his grandfather, William John Fraleigh, had a similarly transforming effect on the Mountain 57 years ago when he built a low-income apartment complex at 775 Concession St. nearby.

"The day the crane went up the Mountain, the skyline changed forever, just as it changed when my grandfather built those apartments," said Fraleigh. "I'm a Hamilton booster."

[flar]

Today marks the unveiling of The Madison, Hamilton’s first million-dollar condo development.


Maybe BCTed and Steeltown's bet could start now.

[Millstone]

The market is so saturated right now, good luck.

[b00ter]

We have been working there on and off for awhile, and although it has taken longer than expected the apartments are very nice, and the views are incredible, esp at night. We were on the top floor when it was dark and you can stand by the window for hours just watching the whole city, pretty spectacular.

The finishes are higher on most things, (hardwood floors, gorgeous marble tile 16X16 and larger, high end kitchen cupboards etc)

Not everyone can justify the cost though so its really a specific market they are in.

[thistleclub]

Not everyone can justify the cost though so its really a specific market they are in.

I keep thinking about the proximity to Henderson General Hospital and the Juravinski Cancer Centre. Specialists might be in that demographic, even as a speculative investment slash time-share pied à terre.

[adam]

The market is so saturated right now, good luck.

Which market? Single detached homes?

[SteelTown]

www.madisonlifestyle.com

My uncle ended up buying the entire building lol.