European Pattern of growth/density for Western US cities?

[mhays]

The US wouldn't empty itself to Luxembourg en masse, but I bet a ton of us would take it by a longshot over moving to any other US city.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by mhays

The US wouldn't empty itself to Luxembourg en masse, but I bet a ton of us would take it by a longshot over moving to any other US city.

Are you speculating without any data or facts?

If what you say is true, then we would see it. Instead, we don't see our cities being built like European cities. Our suburbs continue to grow. The suburban footprint continues to expand.

We don't see a mass migration to Europe. We don't see a mass movement of people wishing to leave America. However, we continue to accept European/Asian/Central American immigrants in high numbers.

[montréaliste]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

Are you speculating without any data or facts?

If what you say is true, then we would see it. Instead, we don't see our cities being built like European cities. Our suburbs continue to grow. The suburban footprint continues to expand.

We don't see a mass migration to Europe. We don't see a mass movement of people wishing to leave America. However, we continue to accept European/Asian/Central American immigrants in high numbers.

Yep, and any chance they get, the new arrivals will head for the suburbs.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

Are you speculating without any data or facts?

If what you say is true, then we would see it. Instead, we don't see our cities being built like European cities. Our suburbs continue to grow. The suburban footprint continues to expand.

We don't see a mass migration to Europe. We don't see a mass movement of people wishing to leave America. However, we continue to accept European/Asian/Central American immigrants in high numbers.

Europe is crowded and expensive, with strict rules for immigration. People move where it’s cheap, and where they are free to go. Most Americans wouldn’t be able to obtain visas to move to Europe, nor could they afford the cost of living. American expats in Europe tend to be well above average in terms of education and income. And very few Americans speak foreign languages, whereas most Europeans speak at least some English, making it easier to move to America.

Originally Posted by montréaliste

Yep, and any chance they get, the new arrivals will head for the suburbs.

Because they are cheaper.

[10023]

Also, you guys are assuming that more people doing something means that it’s better. That’s not the case, and oftentimes it’s the opposite. Bad movies do better at the box office than Oscar winners. Justin Bieber sells more records (or downloads) than quality musicians.

The popularity of American sprawl burbs is just another example of the average person having poor taste and low standards.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by 10023

Europe is crowded and expensive, with strict rules for immigration.

So why would Americans want to be more like Europe again? The obvious answer is, we don't. Goes back to my OP you disagreed with.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by 10023

Also, you guys are assuming that more people doing something means that it’s better. That’s not the case, and oftentimes it’s the opposite. Bad movies do better at the box office than Oscar winners. Justin Bieber sells more records (or downloads) than quality musicians.

Nobody cares about elitist awards that pat the backs of those that are connected.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

So why would Americans want to be more like Europe again? The obvious answer is, we don't. Goes back to my OP you disagreed with.

Why are the most expensive cities and neighborhoods in America the ones that are the most “European” in built form?

Most people would love a West Village townhouse, but could never dream of affording one.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by 10023

Why are the most expensive cities and neighborhoods in America the ones that are the most “European” in built form?

Is this a serious question? Lol.

Obviously we built Beverly Hills to be just like one part of Paris. That's it.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by 10023

Why are the most expensive cities and neighborhoods in America the ones that are the most “European” in built form?

Most people would love a West Village townhouse, but could never dream of affording one.

The only city remotely like Europe is DC

[montréaliste]

Originally Posted by 10023

Also, you guys are assuming that more people doing something means that it’s better. That’s not the case, and oftentimes it’s the opposite. Bad movies do better at the box office than Oscar winners. Justin Bieber sells more records (or downloads) than quality musicians.

The popularity of American sprawl burbs is just another example of the average person having poor taste and low standards.

There are plenty of American suburbs that are better looking than a lot of downtowns unfortunately. There are also tons of European cities with pretty dismal neighborhoods. Let's not put everything in low contrast clichés.

I agree that for the most part, consumers of new houses, are not very sophisticated in taste, nor are they willing to be more demanding. Municipalities need to be more demanding toward contractors, architects and planners.

I only go for older houses, my present one dates from 1905 and I can't abide the newer pastiche type houses generally, but some are pretty close to the mark. The stripped down look of present day modern houses are awful, a lot worse than the pastiche ones, at least in my neck of the woods. The suburbs need to happen, they just need some reigning in, added density and all that good proximity on offer.

[montréaliste]

Originally Posted by 10023

Why are the most expensive cities and neighborhoods in America the ones that are the most “European” in built form?

Most people would love a West Village townhouse, but could never dream of affording one.

A lot of wealthy people coudn't care less about those townhouses, or the ones on either side of Central Park. They would rather live in Park Avenue's older apt buildings or the newer towers on 57th street or maybe whynot the suburbs of L.I or Connecticut or NJ. Take your pick. You just can't project your desires onto other folks' like that, 10023.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by 10023

Also, you guys are assuming that more people doing something means that it’s better. That’s not the case, and oftentimes it’s the opposite. Bad movies do better at the box office than Oscar winners. Justin Bieber sells more records (or downloads) than quality musicians.

The popularity of American sprawl burbs is just another example of the average person having poor taste and low standards.

Yes, the average American can't afford to live in an expensive area of posh London. What is your point? They have poor taste and low standards because that's what they can afford.

I'll never understand people that supposedly care about the "poor" have zero reservations about calling them so many derogatory things. Most people can't afford "nice" things or to have "high" standards. So what? I know some people on this forum may be blown away to hear this, but to many people, living in a standard suburban home and eating at Olive Garden is a fine way to live. It may be in poor taste and below standards to some, but that's fine, they don't care what others think. And at the end of the day, most people can't afford more, so why badger the poor and middle-class?

[mhays]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

Are you speculating without any data or facts?

If what you say is true, then we would see it. Instead, we don't see our cities being built like European cities. Our suburbs continue to grow. The suburban footprint continues to expand.

We don't see a mass migration to Europe. We don't see a mass movement of people wishing to leave America. However, we continue to accept European/Asian/Central American immigrants in high numbers.

Be honest. Do you REALLY not know that a huge percentage of US voters would kill to have transit, healthcare, gun laws, and other factors like a typical European city? And how the voters in many regions have passed strict controls on sprawl?

And do you really not know about the prices in the healthy big urban city cores?

And do you really not know about the infill trend, including in the urban cities where it's often with far less parking or none at all?

[dc_denizen]

Liberal Portland, with a filled in built environment that conforms to most Americans standards of a liveable city, has very low transit share. Transit is overrated vs other urban amenities

I suspect most suburban Londoners would kill to live in a place like Portland.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by mhays

Be honest. Do you REALLY not know that a huge percentage of US voters would kill to have transit, healthcare, gun laws, and other factors like a typical European city? And how the voters in many regions have passed strict controls on sprawl?

And do you really not know about the prices in the healthy big urban city cores?

And do you really not know about the infill trend, including in the urban cities where it's often with far less parking or none at all?

Healthcare and gun laws are just partisan politics, it has nothing to do with the built form.

As far as transit? Probably very few in raw numbers. I know plenty of liberal-leaning people who think climate change is a huge deal, want universal government-run healthcare, and think we need stricter gun laws that wouldn't want to live in a dense city for many reasons, and probably would never use a transit system regularly.

I think you basically said that 50% of the country are Democrats, therefore there is a huge need for these things. In reality, even Democrats love the burbs. Not as much as Republicans, granted, but enough to probably make a majority.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Obadno

The only city remotely like Europe is DC

This is just stupid.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mhays

And how the voters in many regions have passed strict controls on sprawl?

Yes, but to be frank the support of many for these sprawl-control measures/laws/ordinances is a bit of a "pull up the drawbridge now that I'm in!" type of thing.

A lot of people are quite fond of living in sprawl themselves but are less keen on the negative effects (traffic, congestion, ugly boulevards and highways, parking lots, air pollution) of too many people being able to live the same lifestyle.

Hence their support for sprawl "control" - ie no *new* sprawl.

Generally speaking, they havent been voting in favour of the short-term retro-fitting the SFH or low-density areas where they tend to live into much higher density residential. (Unless of course that means they can make a huge cash-out on their SFH, and move to an even bigger house for less money somewhere else.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 10023

Why are the most expensive cities and neighborhoods in America the ones that are the most “European” in built form?

Most people would love a West Village townhouse, but could never dream of affording one.

I don't think that it's "most" people. Not even close.

The reason that the most expensive real estate in the U.S. is in European-style inner cities is because of the discrepancy between supply and demand.

Only a miniscule share of built-up U.S. territory has European-style urban form and only an even smaller share has both that form and low crime and a desirable, pleasant socio-economic environment.

Only a minority of Americans are interested in living in that type of environment, and the number who are willing to pay top dollar for the privilege is smaller still. But they're still numerous enough relative to the dearth of places where you can live that way, that it drives up prices stratospherically.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Only a minority of Americans are interested in living in that type of environment, and the number who are willing to pay top dollar for the privilege is smaller still. But they're still numerous enough relative to the dearth of places where you can live that way, that it drives up prices stratospherically.

Pure speculation.

We don't know what percentage of Americans would be willing to live in that environment because we have almost no examples of an economically healthy city with core-adjacent neighborhoods like the Village that are affordable.