Improved LRT Connectivity For Vanier/Overbrook

[downtown_eddie_brown]

Hey all, I'm a serial lurker and really enjoy reading the active discussions on here about our City. As a Vanier resident, I've been giving some thought lately about how the City could improve LRT access to this area in the 2018 plan. I'd like to run my idea past you traffic-savvy folks, and feel free to give your $0.02 on the matter. Even Uhuniau. I can improve any of the sketches I've provided if more info/detail is necessary; Basically I just want to get a feel of whether this is worth kicking to the Councillors or not.

Bus transit in Vanier/Overbrook can be basically divided into 4 main thoroughfares through which most east-west transit operates; The 1 and 7 running along Beechwood, the 12 running along Montreal Road, the 14 running along McArthur, and the 18 zig-zagging through Overbrook.

We also have, in my mind, highly underused North/South access to the Vanier Parkway and lonely old Hurdman Station. The 9 currently runs a snaking route through Lowertown and New Edinborough before continuing south down the Parkway to Hurdman. One of the current limitations of the 9, in my mind, is that the stops used by the 9 are different than those used by those 1/7/12/14/18 local lines, making effectively waiting for both busses difficult/impossible.



The main reason for these parallel lines has to do with the changing orientation of Vanier's street grid, which aligns itself to the Rideau River at different angles. If you look at a map, you'll see that the roads from Montreal Road moving north are aligned more-or-less with the street grid of Lowertown/Sandy Hill, while the grid surrounding and south of McArthur aligns with that of Alta Vista.

One of the plans that the City has been batting around for improving east-end transit to LRT is by making Montreal a transit priority road with a more-or-less dedicated Bus Transit lane, in hopes that this will let the already-frequent 12 zoom across to Rideau Station in a more timely manner. My personal hunch is that the number of illegal parkers and lighted intersections along Montreal Road will always keep that particular line moving somewhat sluggishly through Vanier.

My radical idea that I welcome comments on seems simple enough; All lines remain the same, but a new bus is added with 15 minute peak frequency that only runs a Vanier Parkway loop between Hurdman Station and Beechwood/Creighton (Looping at Vaughan/MacKay or something). This would be the ugly brown line below;



This would give the following benefits in my mind:

1) Overlapping service with the 9 would make timely north/south transfers down to Hurdman Station along the Vanier Parkway feasible.

2) By placing bus stops on the northwest and southeast corners of the Vanier Parkway, you give residents trying to make an LRT connection the option of waiting for whichever bus arrives first; Their local 1/7/12/14/18 to Rideau, or the Brown Line to Hurdman.

3) Few stops are necessary; It would only need to stop at points that intersect the existing east-end bus lines.

Thoughts?

[1overcosc]

I've always thought that once the LRT is open and the 97/98/99 buses from the Southeast Transitway end at Hurdman instead of continuing downtown, it would be logical to extend those routes north into Vanier/Overbrook. That route you designed on the Vanier Parkway could be an extension of Route 97, creating a fast, continuous route from South Keys/Airport to Beechwood Avenue. In addition to allowing for a fast connection to the LRT going downtown, it also creates a whole new opportunity for easy crosstown connections for trips to areas that are not downtown.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by downtown_eddie_brown

2) By placing bus stops on the northwest and southeast corners of the Vanier Parkway, you give residents trying to make an LRT connection the option of waiting for whichever bus arrives first; Their local 1/7/12/14/18 to Rideau, or the Brown Line to Hurdman.

1. That would be the same intersection where Nussbaum and Fleury just "optimized" bus stops out of existence for reasons neither has yet explained.

2. What happened to the 5?

[Uhuniau]

For an LRT feeder, I'd have it run from Hurdman along your route, but then continue via St. Patrick and Dalhousie to Rideau station. It would be a hybrid of the 9 and the 1 - without sacrificing service on either of those other routes.

However that route is still a little too far to the west to be of utility for many origin/destination pairs that involve areas of Vanier, Overbrook, or New Edinburgh that are more than about a 10-12 minute walk to the parkway. It'll still be more walk- and time-efficient to use an existing local bus to get downtown or to an LRT station.

It is truly remarkable how utterly screwed the east side (and certain other central residential neighbourhoods) are in current and future transit plans. It would be awesome if the area had councillors who cared, or a transit commission that wasn't fixated on placating the outer suburbs.

[downtown_eddie_brown]

This is great feedback, thanks guys. I particularily like the idea of extending those East Transitway routes!

Yes, I (somewhat purposely) neglected to include the 5 on that map; It's a bit of a milk run that, in its attempt to serve multiple needs, successfully achieves none of them. In terms of getting from Billings Bridge to Montreal Road, it would likely be faster to just float downstream on a log. Joking aside, I'll update the map after work.

It was reading about the stop restructuring on Beechwood that got me thinking about throwing this idea to the Councillor's office before they move too far in the wrong direction. They're already aware that their wards benefit little from the new system; I think their ears are open to suggestions.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by downtown_eddie_brown

This is great feedback, thanks guys. I particularily like the idea of extending those East Transitway routes!

Yes, I (somewhat purposely) neglected to include the 5 on that map; It's a bit of a milk run that, in its attempt to serve multiple needs, successfully achieves none of them.

Ah, but it unsuccessfully does so. There's pretty well no other way for it to do so, although to give OC Transpo some rare credit, it's good to see artics finally on that route, esp. when U of O is in session.

It was reading about the stop restructuring on Beechwood that got me thinking about throwing this idea to the Councillor's office before they move too far in the wrong direction. They're already aware that their wards benefit little from the new system; I think their ears are open to suggestions.

Nussbaum maybe; Fleury loves the LRT system and seems to think everything else is hunky-dory with transit in his ward except that there are too many bus stops buggering up things for local businesses.

Neither of them is a strong advocate for user-centred transit. Their concerns are about traffic and parking, not transit users.

[eemy]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I've always thought that once the LRT is open and the 97/98/99 buses from the Southeast Transitway end at Hurdman instead of continuing downtown, it would be logical to extend those routes north into Vanier/Overbrook. That route you designed on the Vanier Parkway could be an extension of Route 97, creating a fast, continuous route from South Keys/Airport to Beechwood Avenue. In addition to allowing for a fast connection to the LRT going downtown, it also creates a whole new opportunity for easy crosstown connections for trips to areas that are not downtown.

Alternatively, it could be further extended via St. Patrick to Hull.

[Arcologist]

My proposed (expensive) solution?

Build an LRT line underneath Rideau, all the way out to the new CLC Rockcliffe development, and get the CLC to intensify their proposal.

Done.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Arcologist

My proposed (expensive) solution?

Build an LRT line underneath Rideau, all the way out to the new CLC Rockcliffe development, and get the CLC to intensify their proposal.

Done.

I wonder how deep it would have to be to co-exist with the Confederation Line.

Nevertheless, a Rideau Line should continue as a Bank Street Line, the first phase which would reach Billings Bridge.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by downtown_eddie_brown

Hey all, I'm a serial lurker and really enjoy reading the active discussions on here about our City. As a Vanier resident, I've been giving some thought lately about how the City could improve LRT access to this area in the 2018 plan. I'd like to run my idea past you traffic-savvy folks, and feel free to give your $0.02 on the matter. Even Uhuniau. I can improve any of the sketches I've provided if more info/detail is necessary; Basically I just want to get a feel of whether this is worth kicking to the Councillors or not.

Bus transit in Vanier/Overbrook can be basically divided into 4 main thoroughfares through which most east-west transit operates; The 1 and 7 running along Beechwood, the 12 running along Montreal Road, the 14 running along McArthur, and the 18 zig-zagging through Overbrook.

We also have, in my mind, highly underused North/South access to the Vanier Parkway and lonely old Hurdman Station. The 9 currently runs a snaking route through Lowertown and New Edinborough before continuing south down the Parkway to Hurdman. One of the current limitations of the 9, in my mind, is that the stops used by the 9 are different than those used by those 1/7/12/14/18 local lines, making effectively waiting for both busses difficult/impossible.



The main reason for these parallel lines has to do with the changing orientation of Vanier's street grid, which aligns itself to the Rideau River at different angles. If you look at a map, you'll see that the roads from Montreal Road moving north are aligned more-or-less with the street grid of Lowertown/Sandy Hill, while the grid surrounding and south of McArthur aligns with that of Alta Vista.

One of the plans that the City has been batting around for improving east-end transit to LRT is by making Montreal a transit priority road with a more-or-less dedicated Bus Transit lane, in hopes that this will let the already-frequent 12 zoom across to Rideau Station in a more timely manner. My personal hunch is that the number of illegal parkers and lighted intersections along Montreal Road will always keep that particular line moving somewhat sluggishly through Vanier.

My radical idea that I welcome comments on seems simple enough; All lines remain the same, but a new bus is added with 15 minute peak frequency that only runs a Vanier Parkway loop between Hurdman Station and Beechwood/Creighton (Looping at Vaughan/MacKay or something). This would be the ugly brown line below;



This would give the following benefits in my mind:

1) Overlapping service with the 9 would make timely north/south transfers down to Hurdman Station along the Vanier Parkway feasible.

2) By placing bus stops on the northwest and southeast corners of the Vanier Parkway, you give residents trying to make an LRT connection the option of waiting for whichever bus arrives first; Their local 1/7/12/14/18 to Rideau, or the Brown Line to Hurdman.

3) Few stops are necessary; It would only need to stop at points that intersect the existing east-end bus lines.

Thoughts?

The new route should loop via Beechwood, Marier and Montreal Road so it serves a good portion of Vanier.

[Guideway]

Originally Posted by downtown_eddie_brown

Hey all, I'm a serial lurker and really enjoy reading the active discussions on here about our City. As a Vanier resident, I've been giving some thought lately about how the City could improve LRT access to this area in the 2018 plan. I'd like to run my idea past you traffic-savvy folks, and feel free to give your $0.02 on the matter. Even Uhuniau. I can improve any of the sketches I've provided if more info/detail is necessary; Basically I just want to get a feel of whether this is worth kicking to the Councillors or not.

Bus transit in Vanier/Overbrook can be basically divided into 4 main thoroughfares through which most east-west transit operates; The 1 and 7 running along Beechwood, the 12 running along Montreal Road, the 14 running along McArthur, and the 18 zig-zagging through Overbrook.

We also have, in my mind, highly underused North/South access to the Vanier Parkway and lonely old Hurdman Station. The 9 currently runs a snaking route through Lowertown and New Edinborough before continuing south down the Parkway to Hurdman. One of the current limitations of the 9, in my mind, is that the stops used by the 9 are different than those used by those 1/7/12/14/18 local lines, making effectively waiting for both busses difficult/impossible.



The main reason for these parallel lines has to do with the changing orientation of Vanier's street grid, which aligns itself to the Rideau River at different angles. If you look at a map, you'll see that the roads from Montreal Road moving north are aligned more-or-less with the street grid of Lowertown/Sandy Hill, while the grid surrounding and south of McArthur aligns with that of Alta Vista.

One of the plans that the City has been batting around for improving east-end transit to LRT is by making Montreal a transit priority road with a more-or-less dedicated Bus Transit lane, in hopes that this will let the already-frequent 12 zoom across to Rideau Station in a more timely manner. My personal hunch is that the number of illegal parkers and lighted intersections along Montreal Road will always keep that particular line moving somewhat sluggishly through Vanier.

My radical idea that I welcome comments on seems simple enough; All lines remain the same, but a new bus is added with 15 minute peak frequency that only runs a Vanier Parkway loop between Hurdman Station and Beechwood/Creighton (Looping at Vaughan/MacKay or something). This would be the ugly brown line below;



This would give the following benefits in my mind:

1) Overlapping service with the 9 would make timely north/south transfers down to Hurdman Station along the Vanier Parkway feasible.

2) By placing bus stops on the northwest and southeast corners of the Vanier Parkway, you give residents trying to make an LRT connection the option of waiting for whichever bus arrives first; Their local 1/7/12/14/18 to Rideau, or the Brown Line to Hurdman.

3) Few stops are necessary; It would only need to stop at points that intersect the existing east-end bus lines.

Thoughts?

It would not be great that the brown line does the loop at Vaughan, Mckay, Beechwood. It would be almost impossible to turn on vaughan considering it's a small road and there is parking on one side, making it even harder to turn. In the morning, it's impossible to get on beechwood through Mckay. I would reccomend the loop be something bigger, maybe down to Dufferin, down the road next to stanley park, down to sussex? The it would go down Crighton for the same path as the 9. This line would only stop at major roads though. (Sussex, Beechwood, Montreal, (maybe McArthur), Coventry, and finally, Hurdman. Any thoughts?

[downtown_eddie_brown]

Originally Posted by Guideway

It would not be great that the brown line does the loop at Vaughan, Mckay, Beechwood. It would be almost impossible to turn on vaughan considering it's a small road and there is parking on one side, making it even harder to turn. In the morning, it's impossible to get on beechwood through Mckay. I would reccomend the loop be something bigger, maybe down to Dufferin, down the road next to stanley park, down to sussex? The it would go down Crighton for the same path as the 9. This line would only stop at major roads though. (Sussex, Beechwood, Montreal, (maybe McArthur), Coventry, and finally, Hurdman. Any thoughts?

I second your thoughts and agree. I've wanted to share the link below for awhile; It's a series of small maps that I had ended up sending along to Fleury's office about a month ago, summing up some of the thoughts in this thread. I didn't recieve a response, unfortunately, but I have been meaning to push for some feedback when I have some time; I think we'd all appreciate hearing what the overall vision is for transit in Neddy/Vanier/Overbrook.

http://www.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=db6d73b0e24946aab1acd01c43853b45

[Guideway]

Originally Posted by downtown_eddie_brown

I second your thoughts and agree. I've wanted to share the link below for awhile; It's a series of small maps that I had ended up sending along to Fleury's office about a month ago, summing up some of the thoughts in this thread. I didn't recieve a response, unfortunately, but I have been meaning to push for some feedback when I have some time; I think we'd all appreciate hearing what the overall vision is for transit in Neddy/Vanier/Overbrook.

http://www.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=db6d73b0e24946aab1acd01c43853b45

I liked the first loop, and I guess it would have the same stops as the 5 down beechwood and Marier. The only disadvantage is the turn onto Montreal Rd, since during rush hour, it is impossible to make a turn off the minor streets. Not only that, but people always park on the right hand side, so with a bus that needs to make wide turns, it would definitely delay the service. Then you have to turn off of Montreal Rd onto the vanier parkway, and that can be difficult.

The second loop is a bit less effective. Have you seen the Vanier parkway evenings? The traffic backs up to Montreal Rd just to turn on St Patrick. So that loop is already out-ruled. If it were put in place, there would be 15-45m delays.

Now the last loop I like a lot, since it has inter-provincial transit so transferring with the STO would be a delight. Again, Maybe have it loop back around on the highway (5) during rush hour on the alexandra bridge. This would reduce delays.

That's my opinion. It's pretty much impossible to avoid traffic in ottawa
Any thoughts?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by downtown_eddie_brown

I second your thoughts and agree. I've wanted to share the link below for awhile; It's a series of small maps that I had ended up sending along to Fleury's office about a month ago, summing up some of the thoughts in this thread. I didn't recieve a response, unfortunately, but I have been meaning to push for some feedback when I have some time; I think we'd all appreciate hearing what the overall vision is for transit in Neddy/Vanier/Overbrook.

http://www.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=db6d73b0e24946aab1acd01c43853b45

I am shocked to learn that Fleury didn't respond.




#notactuallyshocked

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Guideway

Now the last loop I like a lot, since it has inter-provincial transit so transferring with the STO would be a delight. Again, Maybe have it loop back around on the highway (5) during rush hour on the alexandra bridge. This would reduce delays.

That's my opinion. It's pretty much impossible to avoid traffic in ottawa
Any thoughts?

I'd slightly modify the third loop idea to incorporate part of the current 9 route to serve DFAIT and the NRC on Sussex before rejoining the bridge and heading over to Hull.

These are interesting options for routes connecting the east side to the LRT. But the real transit crisis in the east end involves the neighbourhoods' connections to downtown and to other inner neighbourhoods. A better connection to the LRT is still the long way to get downtown, geographically and in terms of travel time.

However, that's not a sexy problem, and not one that OC Transpo or the City cares much about, as evidenced by how much service has deteriorated in the past five or six years.

[Guideway]

Originally Posted by downtown_eddie_brown

I second your thoughts and agree. I've wanted to share the link below for awhile; It's a series of small maps that I had ended up sending along to Fleury's office about a month ago, summing up some of the thoughts in this thread. I didn't recieve a response, unfortunately, but I have been meaning to push for some feedback when I have some time; I think we'd all appreciate hearing what the overall vision is for transit in Neddy/Vanier/Overbrook.

http://www.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=db6d73b0e24946aab1acd01c43853b45

Try sending a new and improved plan/design to Nussbaum. Maybe he will answer. Because if we use Uhuniau's idea of continuing down crighton to NRC, that's his ward, isn't it?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Guideway

Try sending a new and improved plan/design to Nussbaum. Maybe he will answer. Because if we use Uhuniau's idea of continuing down crighton to NRC, that's his ward, isn't it?

Overbrook and New Edinburgh is Nussbaum; Vanier and Lowertown (including the NRC) is Fleury:

[Guideway]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Overbrook and New Edinburgh is Nussbaum; Vanier and Lowertown (including the NRC) is Fleury:

Technically, the brown line route (or as I would call it the 9b) is 66% located in Nussbaum's Ward, while the rest of the route is in Fleury's Ward. (I'm talking about the route between Hull and Hurdman (The route would still go through crighton)). So the way I see it, Nussbaum has a higher influence and power of opinion on the route then Fleury ever had.



If you compare the "possesion" of the Vanier Parkway that Tobi and Fleury "rule", you can obviously see who has the stronger input.

At least that's how I see it.

[downtown_eddie_brown]

An update on this; The Councillor's office got in touch with me for a meeting with Fleury and one of the OCTranspo folks to discuss the idea in a bit more detail. They both seemed interested in and receptive to the idea, and the presentation has been circulated to OCTranspo planners, so we'll see if anything comes of it as 2018 rolls around.

I pressed that the real value of the concept was how easy it would be to pilot, by just extending some existing lines once the Transitway is closed north of Hurdman.

I explained the issue of stop placement, and the value that comes from being able to simultaneously wait for an east-west bus and a north-south bus, and take whichever comes first in order to connect to the Transitway.

At the very least, the concept appears to be on OCTranspo's radar, and the Councillor seems to see value in the concept. We'll see where it goes from here.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by downtown_eddie_brown

I explained the issue of stop placement, and the value that comes from being able to simultaneously wait for an east-west bus and a north-south bus, and take whichever comes first in order to connect to the Transitway.

Fleury and Nussbaum showed how much they valued that feature of local transit when they removed the westbound stop on Beechwood at Crichton without consulting anyone.

The east-end councillors are not friends of transit users. I don't know who they are friends of, but they are not friends of people who depend on transit in their day-to-day lives.