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  #2281  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2010, 7:10 AM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
You missed the point.
In your scenario, you have:
(1) a short-turn train departing the north platform eastbound for New Westminster; PLUS
(2) a main-line train departing the south platform eastbound for New Westminster.

How do you inform a passenger which platform to go to (north platform or south platform??) to catch "the next train" to New Westmnster without them missing it my a split second or waiting on one platform and seeing a train to New Westminster depart from the other platform?
And if you can't do that effectively, you've just halved the frequency of trains for your passengers.
Why do you think there would be some Millennium service only to Lougheed at the same time there is Millenium service through Lougheed between VCC and Waterfront?
I would expect rush-hour level service would have both Millennium and Evergreen service between VCC and Lougheed, and in the evening (and likely weekends too) only Evergreen service runs VCC - Douglas, and Millennium terminates at Lougheed.


When Evergreen trains are running from VCC to Douglas through Lougheed and Millennium trains are running from VCC to Waterfront through Lougheed, then the North Platform would be closed and the roll-up gates to the platform from the mezzanine would be shut. In the Mezzanine, there could be a LED sign that says "all trains are using platforms 1 and 2. Platform 3 is closed." A similar LED message would be displayed on the main platform.

When Millennium trains are terminating at Lougheed (running Waterfront - Lougheed and back), the North Platform gates would be opened and the LED signs on the Mezzanine would be changed to indicate that Evergreen trains are using Platforms 1 and 2, and that Millennium trains to Waterfront via New Westminster leave from Platform 3. On all the platforms the LED signs would indicate that Evergreen trains to Douglas are using platform 1, Evergreen trains to VCC are using platform 2, and Millennium trains to Waterfront via New Westminster are using Platform 3.


This is in some ways easier than the transfer at Commercial-Broadway, but from the announcements in the trains and signs on the platforms and mezzanines, most people can figure out what platform they need to go to so they catch the right train.
     
     
  #2282  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2010, 7:32 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
Why do you think there would be some Millennium service only to Lougheed at the same time there is Millenium service through Lougheed between VCC and Waterfront?
I would expect rush-hour level service would have both Millennium and Evergreen service between VCC and Lougheed, and in the evening (and likely weekends too) only Evergreen service runs VCC - Douglas, and Millennium terminates at Lougheed.
According to what TransitJack has said, which is in line with what TransLink was planning as outlined in one of the documents before...

Millennium Line Service: "Shuttle" from Columbia to Lougheed or Waterfront to Lougheed via Columbia
Evergreen Line Service: Douglas College to VCC via Lougheed

Last edited by deasine; Oct 25, 2010 at 7:59 AM.
     
     
  #2283  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2010, 7:48 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
Why do you think there would be some Millennium service only to Lougheed at the same time there is Millenium service through Lougheed between VCC and Waterfront?
Because that's the nature of a short-turn service - to deploy trains to where they are needed most.

Assuming that M-Line trains travel from Waterfront to VCC (which may not be the case), it's conceivable that the level of service provided by that service pattern (when interlined with Evergreen Line trains) would provide too many trains to the western segment of the M-Line for the actual passenger loads (i.e. much less than the Expo Line). If that is the case, then some (but not all) M-Line trains might be short-turned at Lougheed to provide an increased level of service on the Expo Line segment of the M-Line run.

If that's the case, that means you need the through trains and the short-turned trains to load at the same platforms to avoid confusion.

If it were purely one or the other, then your system would work, but it doesn't have the flexibility of accommodating both services simultaneously. In addition, you'd have the operational issue of opening and closing platforms that would require manual sweeps of the platforms to make sure passengers have cleared the area before the roller gates come down (i.e. if the service pattern changes during the course of a day (as opposed to on a day by day basis)).

Last edited by officedweller; Oct 25, 2010 at 8:01 AM.
     
     
  #2284  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2010, 3:59 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Something not really mentioned here is that of all the stations Lougheed is the WORST station for up/down transfers.

The access to the station is only from the ends, and the concourse is the longest on the whole system (The train platform is 80m, but the concourse extends past this on both ends.

Making ONE of these transfers easier (either morning or afternoon) is a good thing.

If the double switch is a bad thing, I'm sure it's possible to put in a switch east of the station on the existing tracks that would allow the Columbia shuttle to not touch the EG tracks.
     
     
  #2285  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2010, 7:21 PM
TransitJack TransitJack is offline
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One of the things that might cause some confusion to the general public, at least in the beginning, is understanding the differences between the train lines and the infrastructure lines.

People associate :
Expo Line as Waterfront > King George, even though M Line trains also use it also

M Line as VCC Clark > Columbia, only M line Trains use it.

Evergreen Line as being the long promised extension from Lougheed >Coquitlam.

Its likely the actual Mline guideway will always be thought of as the M Line, even though Evergreen Line trains will also use it.
     
     
  #2286  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2010, 7:45 PM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TransitJack View Post
One of the things that might cause some confusion to the general public, at least in the beginning, is understanding the differences between the train lines and the infrastructure lines.

People associate :
Expo Line as Waterfront > King George, even though M Line trains also use it also

M Line as VCC Clark > Columbia, only M line Trains use it.

Evergreen Line as being the long promised extension from Lougheed >Coquitlam.

Its likely the actual Mline guideway will always be thought of as the M Line, even though Evergreen Line trains will also use it.
It surprises me that there are still people who think only the Expo line trains go to Metrotown or Downtown. I've actually heard arguments amongst a group waiting on the platform whether the VCC-Clark train pulling in to Broadway-Commercial goes to Metrotown. Someone in the group will convince everyone else to 'wait for the King George train' instead.

There are also people who wait for the Richmond-Brighouse Canada Line train, because that one will 'fer sher' stop at Oakridge Mall.


It means the train has a little more room for me.
     
     
  #2287  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2010, 7:55 PM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
Something not really mentioned here is that of all the stations Lougheed is the WORST station for up/down transfers.

The access to the station is only from the ends, and the concourse is the longest on the whole system (The train platform is 80m, but the concourse extends past this on both ends.

Making ONE of these transfers easier (either morning or afternoon) is a good thing.

If the double switch is a bad thing, I'm sure it's possible to put in a switch east of the station on the existing tracks that would allow the Columbia shuttle to not touch the EG tracks.
Or the Evergreen line from Lougheed - Douglas could be the shuttle, and Millennium from VCC - Waterfront through Lougheed is the mainline during off-peak hours and weekends.

Here's my drawing of the Evergreen line terminating at the North Platform at Lougheed (Millennium line trains are using the main platform to pass through).

     
     
  #2288  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2010, 7:58 PM
cabotp cabotp is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
Something not really mentioned here is that of all the stations Lougheed is the WORST station for up/down transfers.

The access to the station is only from the ends, and the concourse is the longest on the whole system (The train platform is 80m, but the concourse extends past this on both ends.

Making ONE of these transfers easier (either morning or afternoon) is a good thing.

If the double switch is a bad thing, I'm sure it's possible to put in a switch east of the station on the existing tracks that would allow the Columbia shuttle to not touch the EG tracks.
I was thinking the same thing in regards to a train coming from Braid. Install a switch just before the final curve into Lougheed. So a train coming from Braid would switch over to the southern track before entering Lougheed station. Where it will sit and wait until it has to depart.

There is enough time that a train could leave Braid going to Lougheed, before the train at Lougheed had to leave. This would prevent those trains from disrupting the trains on Evergreen line.
     
     
  #2289  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2010, 10:09 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
Or the Evergreen line from Lougheed - Douglas could be the shuttle, and Millennium from VCC - Waterfront through Lougheed is the mainline during off-peak hours and weekends.
Possible, but the main advantage of SkyTrain for the line over LRT was having a one seat ride to Broadway & Commercial, plus studies have suggested that the M-Line segment (Braid / Sapperton) will have low ridership, so the mainline should be to Coquitlam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabotp View Post
I was thinking the same thing in regards to a train coming from Braid. Install a switch just before the final curve into Lougheed. So a train coming from Braid would switch over to the southern track before entering Lougheed station. Where it will sit and wait until it has to depart.

There is enough time that a train could leave Braid going to Lougheed, before the train at Lougheed had to leave. This would prevent those trains from disrupting the trains on Evergreen line.
If the frequency is low enough, they could do that at the siding over by the TCH - essentially single tracking the segment from that siding to Loughed for operational purposes. Remember that one study suggested a shuttle service between Columbia and Lougheed with low frequency. But that's probably more disruptive than interlining with trains from Coquitlam on that short segment of middle track.
     
     
  #2290  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2010, 6:26 AM
TransitFreak TransitFreak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
If the frequency is low enough, they could do that at the siding over by the TCH - essentially single tracking the segment from that siding to Loughed for operational purposes. Remember that one study suggested a shuttle service between Columbia and Lougheed with low frequency. But that's probably more disruptive than interlining with trains from Coquitlam on that short segment of middle track.
I forgot about that layover track after Braid, and based on Deasine's video link from the transit thread, it's about 2.0 mins from there to Lougheed station. Assuming even a 1 minute layover, it would clear the 'single track' section in 6 mins, allowing current 6 minute interval for the Millenium section. Also, the layover track is directional to the south track (i.e. no double switches at either end a la Metrotown), so you would have less movement on the switches. Just the south track switch would move back and forth. Good call officedweller, I'm liking this idea much better!
     
     
  #2291  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2010, 7:56 AM
cabotp cabotp is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Possible, but the main advantage of SkyTrain for the line over LRT was having a one seat ride to Broadway & Commercial, plus studies have suggested that the M-Line segment (Braid / Sapperton) will have low ridership, so the mainline should be to Coquitlam.



If the frequency is low enough, they could do that at the siding over by the TCH - essentially single tracking the segment from that siding to Loughed for operational purposes. Remember that one study suggested a shuttle service between Columbia and Lougheed with low frequency. But that's probably more disruptive than interlining with trains from Coquitlam on that short segment of middle track.
I thought of the siding track that is parallel to the Trans Canada Hwy. The only problem is what happens when they want to park a train their during off peak. Unless they change it so that trains only park their when the system is shutdown for the night.
     
     
  #2292  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2010, 7:56 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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Here's another suggestion that improves on the one i drew before.
     
     
  #2293  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2010, 8:21 AM
cabotp cabotp is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan_kuan View Post


Here's another suggestion that improves on the one i drew before.
\

While your suggestion does provide easy transfers for passengers. The main problem is that it requires different routes of trains to cross over other routes.

It comes down to either providing less of a disruption for the trains but requiring people to vertically move. Or making transfers easier but requiring trains to cross other paths and thus lowering the potential frequency of the trains in that area.
     
     
  #2294  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2010, 8:23 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cabotp View Post
I thought of the siding track that is parallel to the Trans Canada Hwy. The only problem is what happens when they want to park a train their during off peak. Unless they change it so that trains only park their when the system is shutdown for the night.
There are three tracks at the siding (not sure how many switches) - but a train could still be parked on what used to be the mainline (i.e. former westbound segment) if the middle siding is required to execute the switchover.
     
     
  #2295  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2010, 9:00 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan_kuan View Post
Here's another suggestion that improves on the one i drew before.
Side note that the existing guideway within the station will never be demolished.

Comments:

Looks interesting, but:

In your scenario, assuming a mainline to Coquitlam and a short-turn from New Westminster, the short-turn must cross the path of an opposing Coquitlam bound train, not once, but twice - both when it enters the station and when it leaves the station. This places all of the conflicts at the same location.

The PMC configuration (with the basket weave) split up the potential conflicts (could be better for timing). West of the station, mainline Coquitlam trains cross the opposing path of Vancouver bound trains, and in a short-turn from New Westminster scenario, there's also one "interlining" conflict east of the station, with trains travelling in the same direction, and only on the inbound, not the outbound trip. Without the basket weave and with a crossover along North Road, you add another opposing conflict (but potentially with enough distance to adequately time trains).

In your scenario, assuming a mainline to New Westminster and a short-turn from Coquitlam, the Coquitlam Short-turn would have to pass through the station, switch and then travel back through the station and use platform 1 to load passengers for Coquitlam. Passing through the station twice and reversing on the mainline may complicate matters.
Even though that routing isn't planned, there should be enough flexiblity to so do so efficiently.

The same applies for any through-routing of trains between Coquitlam and New Westminster - in your scenario, trains from Coquitlam and reversing out to New Westminster would have to pass through the station twice.
Even though that routing isn't planned, there should be enough flexiblity to so do so efficiently.


Just a note that we DO know what was intended originally for the PMC Line - it is illustrated in the RPTO2000 handout below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Here's what's currently planned -
(recall that the criss-cross switch replaces the PMC Line's basket weave)

Each platform has a designated destination.

Green - to Coquitlam
Red - to Vancouver
Blue - to New Westminster (and beyond)

This provides a cross-platform transfer from Coquitlam to New Westminster (i.e. Surrey), but an up-and-down transfer from New West to Coquitlam.

I think Deasine's suggestion would have the Coquitlam platform located between the red and green lines (?)



Here's the PMC Line brochure (RTPO 2000) posted by SteelWheels a few years ago:

Here's the PMC configuration for a Coquitlam - New Westminster routing (either strictly short-turn, or passing through the station twice dropping off at the Vancouver platform before reversing) - and still using the assigned destination platforms.



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Last edited by officedweller; Oct 26, 2010 at 9:16 AM.
     
     
  #2296  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2010, 10:48 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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Allankuan's plans with the two centre platforms are exactly those that I have proposed earlier (see officedweller's quote above). I

Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
In your scenario, assuming a mainline to Coquitlam and a short-turn from New Westminster, the short-turn must cross the path of an opposing Coquitlam bound train, not once, but twice - both when it enters the station and when it leaves the station. This places all of the conflicts at the same location.
It wouldn't be too much of an issue if the frequencies of the Millennium Line shuttle are low (every 5 minutes for instance). In these situations, I think the Evergreen Line should have priority over the Millennium Line, and that if there is any conflict in space, the Evergreen Line will have the ROW first.

If we were really to blame someone on the complex track switching and platform configurations, I would point my fingers to the NDP Gov't who changed the original configuration of the Millennium Line, which was to bring it directly to Coquitlam, and not through Burnaby.
     
     
  #2297  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2010, 1:41 PM
DKaz DKaz is offline
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SSP: Beating dead horses everyday.

PS. Let's just stick with that darned basketweave lol.
     
     
  #2298  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2010, 4:01 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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We could also put the blame on Lougheed Mall. The original plan was to align the station North-South and to have a direct connection a la Metrotown to the mall. The train would enter in and "back out" to go to New West. Anyone got images of that original alignment? officedweller?

We can blame Coquitlam for not wanting a Maillardville station which would've increased the passenger count on that line ( We got Braid instead, which is busy because it's a bus terminal ).
     
     
  #2299  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2010, 5:36 PM
Zassk Zassk is offline
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Looking at the following image, it seems that all of the design problems could have been avoided by building the 3rd future platform on the south instead of the north. Because the "secondary branch" (i.e. the track to Braid) is the one that goes south, so its platform should have been on the south.

     
     
  #2300  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2010, 7:03 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
Looking at the following image, it seems that all of the design problems could have been avoided by building the 3rd future platform on the south instead of the north. Because the "secondary branch" (i.e. the track to Braid) is the one that goes south, so its platform should have been on the south.
The platfrom for Braid IS on the south (blue).
Edit - just realized what you meant. Reading the materials below, it suggests that Lougheed could have been a terminus, so initially, a centre platform would have been desirable (instead of building it as a side platform station). In addition, the "secondary branch" to Braid wasn't supposed to be secondary in the original plans - it was supposed to be the main-line.


**********

Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
If we were really to blame someone on the complex track switching and platform configurations, I would point my fingers to the NDP Gov't who changed the original configuration of the Millennium Line, which was to bring it directly to Coquitlam, and not through Burnaby.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
We could also put the blame on Lougheed Mall. The original plan was to align the station North-South and to have a direct connection a la Metrotown to the mall. The train would enter in and "back out" to go to New West. Anyone got images of that original alignment? officedweller?
Yeah, for the "T" line, the platform was originally supposed to be north-south to allow a through route from Coquitlam to New Westminster in support of the Livable Region Strategic Pla (i.e. downtown Surrey (only one transfer)), but the phasing of the line resulted in the configuration as-built.

The diagrams I had seen suggested an equally complex back-inand out move.

Here's the link to a bunch of reports:

http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/epic/..._53_15491.html

The "Connectivity & Operations Report" is the one with the Lougheed diagrams:

http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/epic/...ed4615db00.pdf

Map for reference (note the names of the lines when reading the Lougheed sections below):



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Here's the Lougheed Station discussion:

Note that neither the initial VCC and the New Westminster short-turn/reversals involve moving past the platform twice (like a tail track reversal). The "final" VCC operation does appear to have a tail-track siding north of the platform for the VCC train to idle off the Coquitlam-New Westminster main-line.

Also note that these diagrams do not have a third platform - don't know when that was added, but the last sentence in the discussion below suggests capacity concerns of a centre platform as the reason why it was eventually added (and why Lougheed's platfrom is so long).



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Last edited by officedweller; Oct 26, 2010 at 8:23 PM.
     
     
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