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  #1041  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2013, 11:36 PM
MarshallKnight MarshallKnight is offline
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So this is something I didn't know:

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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The building envelope can't be changed, but they can definitely design the building however they would like.

The approvals are for the building envelope, not for the specific architectural design.
Would you mind explaining to me what the envelope is/entails exactly? I was among those who were glad that this project seems to have run aground, because I hated the renders we've seen. But I also thought they were more or less locked in.

I don't particularly believe that the design would have changed much from what we've seen, but that fact that it COULD change is an interesting wrinkle.
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  #1042  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2013, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The building envelope can't be changed, but they can definitely design the building however they would like.

The approvals are for the building envelope, not for the specific architectural design.
Vornado got specific approvals to go outside the envelope for that site. It's all written into the documents. What's shown is what was approved. A different design would mean different studies, and trigger a new approvals process. It's the reason two designs were submitted for approval. They can build either one.
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  #1043  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2013, 6:59 PM
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Not sure how I missed this.

Seems that Vornado played 'wait and see' too long which might have resulted in missed opportunities that went elsewhere. Perhaps also they were not as aggressive as they could've been with sales and marketing to attract some interest. Still, seems a bit early for them to be throwing in the towel considering there are still plenty of prospects out there looking for new substantial space. Given the location of this property, you would think it should practically sell itself, which leads me to believe that someone at Vornado missed the ball somewhere.

I scratched my head after reading that article . . . very vague / perplexing.
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  #1044  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2013, 7:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Dac150 View Post
I scratched my head after reading that article . . . very vague / perplexing.
It is a little odd, particularly if you're still trying to get tenants. But this is not one of the more "glamorous" projects in the media. Everything west towards the Hudson Yards gets all the news. One approvals were in place, this one wasn't newsworthy anymore. Still, potential tenants look at everything that's out there, both on the market and yet to be built. This won't be a speculative tower, so any tenant signing will have to come while the hotel is still open.
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  #1045  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2013, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
Vornado got specific approvals to go outside the envelope for that site. It's all written into the documents. What's shown is what was approved. A different design would mean different studies, and trigger a new approvals process. It's the reason two designs were submitted for approval. They can build either one.
Yeah, but that's my point. They have a specifically approved building envelope (actually two potential envelopes) that are independent from the allowed zoning code.

But, the envelope(s) do not guide the design. If they wanted to use a different facade, different architect, or whatever, that would be fine, because it has nothing to do with the zoning variance.

The zoning variance guides things like height, bulk, circulation, and the like. They aren't forcing developers to use a certain material or certain architect.
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  #1046  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2013, 1:00 AM
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
this is not one of the more "glamorous" projects in the media.
Certainly not, however the location is incredible. That alone should command interest. Hence why I believe the sales / marketing department is asleep at the wheel. Granted this isn't the most time sensitive development, it has everything else going for it.
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  #1047  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:27 PM
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Of all the big proposals in Manhattan, this one always seemed the least likely to actually happen to me.
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  #1048  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:48 PM
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This just requires higher prices per square foot than the WTC, or Related's Hudson Yards, and probably Brookfield's Manhattan West, Girasole and One Hudson Yards, so this could very well be 5-8 years off. But as has been said many times before, a building this big, as of right, right across from Penn Station, is very likely to eventually get built, and very nearly did. Merrill was gonna move here right before the crash.
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  #1049  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2013, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000 View Post
This just requires higher prices per square foot than the WTC, or Related's Hudson Yards, and probably Brookfield's Manhattan West
Brookfield's Manhattan West would likely be more expensive, at least from what they've been saying about the rents they would need to justify the project. As far as being the least likely to happen, this tower was actually the one closest to being built before the crash. This was the one to beat out 3 WTC as a headquarters for Merrill Lynch, and was very close to moving forward.

http://observer.com/2007/10/merrill-...sylvania-site/


A little more here...

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Vorna...l_Pennsylvania

Quote:
In 2007, Merrill Lynch ran a process for the location of a new headquarters facility for the new century. Our hat in the ring was the Hotel Pennsylvania. After an extensive search, Merrill Lynch selected the Hotel Pennsylvania site with its 80,000 square foot footprint for trading floors and an over two million square foot total building envelope. The credit crisis and Merrill’s management changes disrupted this deal, but the fact remains that our site was the last man standing in a rigorous citywide search.

They have now fallen behind most of the competing sites, most of which have some sort of work going on. But it still remains one of the best footprints and locations.
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  #1050  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2013, 1:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Guiltyspark View Post
Of all the big proposals in Manhattan, this one always seemed the least likely to actually happen to me.
It's probably one of the most likely projects, given the location, the zoning, and the fact that it's owned by Vornado.

The issue is the timing. And Vornado is known as being more cautious than other developers. They're a public company, so have to listen to shareholders.

And, as others have mentioned, Merrill Lynch almost agreed to move to this site. They were extremely close to going forward here.
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  #1051  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 12:07 PM
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And thus, the saga ends...


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...211087498.html

Long Live the Hotel Pennsylvania

March 5, 2012
Eliot Brown

Quote:

Vornado Chairman Steven Roth told investors at a Citigroup conference that the company was abandoning its longtime plan to replace the Hotel Pennsylvania in Manhattan with an office tower. The company, rather, has finalized its plan to invest in an upgrade of the downtrodden hotel across from Madison Square Garden. The move is likely to involve bringing in a new operator and partner.

"We're not going to tear down the hotel," Mr. Roth said. "In fact, we're going to invest in it aggressively and try to make it into a really profitable, really good hotel for our purposes."
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  #1052  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2014, 12:05 AM
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http://nypost.com/2014/08/05/famed-h...sfp=3160509449

Famed Hotel Pennsylvania facing wrecking ball again





By Lois Weiss
August 5, 2014


Quote:
The Hotel Pennsylvania may not be safe from the wrecking ball after all.

Vornado chief Steve Roth revealed Tuesday that financial firms have approached the real-estate powerhouse about resurrecting its plans to raze the famed hotel opposite Madison Square Garden and replace it with a 3 million square-foot tower, known as 15 Penn Plaza.

“We are getting very interesting intriguing incomings as to office tenants that might want that site,” Roth said during a conference call.

“We are putting our big toe in the marketplace to explore the opportunity to land a major anchor tenant for the site and the Penn Plaza district,” he added. “We are up to our eyeballs in it, but there is nothing specific we are able to go public with.”

Vornado shelved plans to build a tower to house new trading floors for Merrill Lynch after the brokerage firm backed away from the deal in 2007. Less than a year later, Bank of America bought Merrill Lynch as it teetered on the brink of collapse.

“We have a 3 million square foot financial services-oriented tower, which was designed for a huge financial services company that we had a deal with that went away during the Great Recession,” Roth recalled. “It is sitting on our shelves.”

The plans for the 68-story tower, which would rise almost as high as the nearby Empire State Building, also had been criticized by that building’s ownership for potentially ruining the skyline of New York.

Vornado finally shifted gears in March 2013, as The Post first reported, and announced plans for a massive renovation of the Hotel Pennsylvania, which would have the added benefit of improving the neighborhood where Vornado has extensive holdings.

But now, the Hudson Yards neighborhood to the west is gathering steam with a new park, major towers and big-name tenants, leading more companies to consider all the area sites and options.

While Roth said the roughly $300 million hotel renovation has been put “on hold,” the firm will go down one of two paths — either landing an anchor tenant for a new tower or a renovation of the hotel that would still generate more income and improve the neighborhood.

Roth, who acknowledged that the transformation of the neighborhood won’t be a short-term endeavor, said: “It’s three or four blocks in the city of New York on top of the busiest train station in North America.”
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  #1053  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2014, 12:16 AM
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Nice. I liked this tower. Good thing for the economy. A site like this needs to be developed. So much opportunity.
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  #1054  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2014, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
Nice. I liked this tower. Good thing for the economy. A site like this needs to be developed. So much opportunity.
The destruction of another McKim Meade and White should not be celebrated. The lobby should be restored and the hotel rooms updated. A fat, banal, glass office building does nothing to enhance the architectural heritage of the city.
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  #1055  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2014, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by mistermetAJ View Post
The destruction of another McKim Meade and White should not be celebrated. The lobby should be restored and the hotel rooms updated. A fat, banal, glass office building does nothing to enhance the architectural heritage of the city.
That would be nice and all if this were another era. The site, across the street from the busiest transit hub in the country, is much more valuable an asset to the city as an office building. But I don't take "preservation" concerns too seriously when the primarily objective is that the replacement isn't good enough.

As I keep mentioning, New York City is not a museum. There are numerous museums across the city, one devoted to the city itself. But no, in the living, growing, prospering, and ever changing city, sometimes old things must give way to the new. But beyond that, the building is a dump. It's not the only thing in the immediate area that should come down, (if this moves forward others will follow), but it's the one with the largest footprint that can accommodate a very large office tower.
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  #1056  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2014, 12:38 AM
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YESS!!! I love this project! Great location! Time to bring back the diagram.
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  #1057  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2014, 12:54 AM
mistermetAJ mistermetAJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
(1) That would be nice and all if this were another era. (2) The site, across the street from the busiest transit hub in the country, is much more valuable an asset to the city as an office building. (3) But I don't take "preservation" concerns too seriously when the primarily objective is that the replacement isn't good enough.

As I keep mentioning, New York City is not a museum. There are numerous museums across the city, one devoted to the city itself. But no, in the living, growing, prospering, and ever changing city, sometimes old things must give way to the new. But beyond that, the building is a dump. It's not the only thing in the immediate area that should come down, (if this moves forward others will follow), but it's the one with the largest footprint that can accommodate a very large office tower.
(1) Why would architectural preservation only matter in another era?

(2) So would every site in SOHO. What's the difference other than zoning?

(3) I am surprised you belittled my reference to McKim Meade and White, as just a "primary objective is that the replacement isn't good enough." My criticism of the design as compared to the current hotel was independent of the fact it is a piece of NY history and architecture representing an era of time and architecture that should be preserved.

"New York is not a museum" is the typical argument for bad architecture replacing old gems. I agree with you on principle. I don't complain when banal new apartment buildings replace older, more ornate tenaments. How many town houses mid-town have been destroyed for the sake of "progress" with complete silence from preservationists? This hotel is not an analogous comparison.
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  #1058  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2014, 1:13 AM
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Well we knew this would probably happen.

Vornado always said the project was "on hold", not cancelled. As soon as they got the interest from tenants again, the project goes back to the front burner.
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  #1059  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2014, 1:25 AM
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Nice.

All the more reason for that diarrhea disaster Penn Station to come down. NYC needs a large, modern train station, especially with Manhattan West and Hudson Yards coming online.
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  #1060  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2014, 4:30 AM
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Im probably going to get flamed for saying this........... but I really think this is too close to the empire state building. I know New York is not a museum, and I completely encourage new development, but I would like to be able to see the empire state building standing alone in its general vicinity. The empire state is the most iconic building ever built (maybe after the eiffel tower) and putting an glass office building right next door with a higher roof height would disgrace ESB. It is the eight wonder of the world btw.
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