[Halifax] Pavilion (YMCA) and Curve | 2X49 m | 17 & 15 fl | Completed

[ScovaNotian]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Can anybody find out who the Parks Canada staff are and cross reference them with the anti-development group membership?

Obviously this doesn't prove anything, but David A. Sutherland is the Nova Scotia representative on Parks Canada's Historic Sites and Monuments Board of Canada and a member of the Heritage Trust: http://www.pc.gc.ca/clmhc-hsmbc/comm...s-members.aspx .

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by ScovaNotian

Obviously this doesn't prove anything, but David A. Sutherland is the Nova Scotia representative on Parks Canada's Historic Sites and Monuments Board of Canada and a member of the Heritage Trust: http://www.pc.gc.ca/clmhc-hsmbc/comm...s-members.aspx .

I wouldn't really call that a conflict of interest though. Parks Canada is about promoting the heritage of their importance sites - I would expect their members to be involved in heritage.

Their opinion of the fort though isn't making sense to me though. They have the viewplanes and the band a height restrictions along Brunswick Street - what more do they want? Do they feel that because they are a prominant site in the core they should be even more special? My answer to that would be no. Besides, who really goes to the back of citadell hill to look at the view anyway? Not a heck of a lot, if any.

[worldlyhaligonian]

This building isn't going to be on the citadel grounds and there are tall buildings all around the site. The proximity issue really gets me... in cities like London, they have alot of resistance, but then again, much larger developments proposed and much richer history.

Did Parks Canada protest the Martello? This seems really fishy to me.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I wouldn't really call that a conflict of interest though. Parks Canada is about promoting the heritage of their importance sites - I would expect their members to be involved in heritage.

Is promoting heritage the same as stopping development? I would think heritage promotion would be more focused on restoration of existing heritage structures, not preventing new structures in the vicinity to be built... technically the heritage structures are developments from their era...

[someone123]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Did Parks Canada protest the Martello? This seems really fishy to me.

The Martello and Paramount were permitted based on old development agreements, so there was no approval process right before they were built.

Parks Canada did oppose the Midtown hotel proposal, if I remember correctly. I believe that they'd oppose any nearby highrise. They might have a problem with the Citadel Hotel redevelopment as well. They never seem to have much of an impact though.

It is true that these groups are pretty incestuous -- you find that somebody's on the HT and then STV and Parks Canada and on and on. I don't think it's "corrupt", but it's something to bear in mind. The opinions of these groups can be set based on the opinions of a few individuals. They do not represent broad-based support by any stretch.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Their opinion of the fort though isn't making sense to me though. They have the viewplanes and the band a height restrictions along Brunswick Street - what more do they want?

...the demolition of downtown?

It's so ironic that the aspect of the hill tourists appreciate most is the surrounding cityscape.

Citadel Hill ITSELF is a minor, yes...minor military fortification.

I love history, but these warped opinions of the hill's extreme importance is such a strong hindrance to the prosperity of our downtown.

Halifax DOES NOT belong to Citadel Hill damnit.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I love history, but these warped opinions of the hill's extreme importance is such a strong hindrance to the prosperity of our downtown.

I agree.

The Citadel is interesting, as is the clock tower. The views are nice and I'm happy we have them.

What I don't like is the dogma. The Citadel is considered sacrosanct because it's "heritage". That's not a real reason for having it. The real reasons are that it's fun to visit, unusual, and tells us about our past. If you look at it in a practical way you also see that it could be much better than it is. Right now it's not used much despite being prime land. Why don't we hold more events there? Why don't we build things on the hill or into the hill? The fact that it is forced to remain as it was when it was used for a different purpose pretty much guarantees that it will be less than optimal today.

I'd love to see creative reuse of the Citadel. For example, the interior parade square could be used more frequently as a performance venue. The hill itself could be used for all kinds of things -- the new public library could have been built into the hill along Sackville Street. It could have had a green roof open to the public with minimal impact to views.

But we must not think of such things!

[Keith P.]

Former Mayor Ron Wallace proposed tunneling under the Citadel from Brunswick St. to create an invisible downtown parking garage. He was mocked at the time - but I always thought the idea was brilliant. Might actually make some use of the thing.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Former Mayor Ron Wallace proposed tunneling under the Citadel from Brunswick St. to create an invisible downtown parking garage. He was mocked at the time - but I always thought the idea was brilliant. Might actually make some use of the thing.

Hear hear. I think parking under the hill would be a great use of an otherwise pretty blank (functionality-wise) spot smack in the centre of town.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I think their (Parks Canada et al.) sentiment is anti-urbanity though, height and the sense of being in a city are to be avoided at all costs.

Insanity. The history of that hill is part of WHY there is an urban (ish) city here now.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by someone123

Why don't we hold more events there? Why don't we build things on the hill or into the hill? The fact that it is forced to remain as it was when it was used for a different purpose pretty much guarantees that it will be less than optimal today.

I'd love to see creative reuse of the Citadel. For example, the interior parade square could be used more frequently as a performance venue. The hill itself could be used for all kinds of things -- the new public library could have been built into the hill along Sackville Street. It could have had a green roof open to the public with minimal impact to views.

But we must not think of such things!

I can see a possibility of having more events there. I, for one, would love to see our education system arrange for more student field trips to the fortification. I know so many Maritimers that have yet to see the Citadel, which is crazy!!

I think the desire for additional construction on the hill is reeeeeeally pushing it. I'm actually very in favour of preserving the historical site as is; I simply just want the Citadel-lovers to leave the downtown alone. Let Halifax grow. Let Halifax urbanize.

And P.S.: more people living downtown translates into more people using the hill. Morning jogs on the Citadel are amazing. And you can't find a better place to sunbathe--though don't look at me for proof of that, since my middle name might as well be Casper.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

Insanity. The history of that hill is part of WHY there is an urban (ish) city here now.

Not insanity, but perhaps slightly unreasonable.

Yes, I agree with you in that the hill is part of the reason why Halifax exists. BUT...we should remember that the Citadel is a later addition to Halifax's Defence System. There were already buildings established downtown before this fortification was even considered. If it were never built, my thoughts are that the downtown would be much (much, much, much) more developed. Instead, Halifax has mostly thrown its development in the form of sprawl...

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Former Mayor Ron Wallace proposed tunneling under the Citadel from Brunswick St. to create an invisible downtown parking garage. He was mocked at the time - but I always thought the idea was brilliant. Might actually make some use of the thing.

It would be a very smart use of space.


And it wouldn't influence the fortification at all!

I love underground developments!

[someone123]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I think the desire for additional construction on the hill is reeeeeeally pushing it.

It's only "pushing it" because a small group of unimaginative people says it is. Don't listen to them. They've been setting the agenda for so long that most don't even realize how much of it is arbitrary and wrong.

We should let more creative people work on improving the city instead of turning heritage into a straightjacket. I bet architects and students would come up with amazing ideas for improving the Citadel for free if there was an open design competition.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's only "pushing it" because a small group of unimaginative people says it is. Don't listen to them. They've been setting the agenda for so long that most don't even realize how much of it is arbitrary and wrong.

We should let more creative people work on improving the city instead of turning heritage into a straightjacket. I bet architects and students would come up with amazing ideas for improving the Citadel for free if there was an open design competition.

That's an interesting idea...
It's hard to say whether the fort not being in Halifax would've influenced a better downtown development...no one can say for certain. I've always felt that the concerts on the hill have been pretty cool, I've always liked those. So putting a library there, just wouldn't be the same for me. But at least it's thinking outside the box. Personally, I'd like to see some more festivals use that space for concerts or whatever.

I remember when Ron Wallace thought about parking under the hill. I didn't like the idea because I figured it would be expensive, but taking that aside I was open to the idea.

What I would be opposed too is extending the band A restrictions (which the fort wanted) along Sackville Street. It is just too late - there is already an existing context and I suspect the submission of the Citadell will just be wrapped up into the NIMBY catagory. If they go after the citadell hotel, I'd be disappointed. I think the challenge for them is to show that the views being protected are even really used - if they aren't, why keep them protected?

But I really don't see a lot of the area around the citadell being the subject of a lot of redevelopment; other than the YMCA and the Citadell Hotel. I just can't seen any of the existing development being removed to put up something bigger.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

...the demolition of downtown?

It's so ironic that the aspect of the hill tourists appreciate most is the surrounding cityscape.

Citadel Hill ITSELF is a minor, yes...minor military fortification.

I love history, but these warped opinions of the hill's extreme importance is such a strong hindrance to the prosperity of our downtown.

Halifax DOES NOT belong to Citadel Hill damnit.

Yeah, exactly! I see skyline shots with the citadel featured, and the so called harm to tourism??? The purdy's wharf image is used on almost everything Halifax!

The shots of the cityscape with the citadel in the foreground wouldn't look so impressive without our CBD!

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

Insanity. The history of that hill is part of WHY there is an urban (ish) city here now.

Its weird, because if they knew their history, they'd realize this was a booming place back in the day that they were trying to transform into a New York or Boston of the era.

I'd love to see Halifax retain its history and then move forward in the vision of its founders. No more crap faux heritage, lets respect and restore what we have left and then build around it!

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I'd love to see Halifax retain its history and then move forward in the vision of its founders.

The shipbuilding contract would be the fuel to move this vision forward.

[Empire]

There should be some sort of event, festival, concert, market etc. every Sat. inside the fort on Citadel Hill. Because Parks Canada soaks people for an entry fee no one from the city goes unless they are taking visitors. I think the fact that this National Historic Site is in the middle of downtown, holds so much history and has such a stranglehold on the development potential of the surrounding area the entry fee should be waived. It's time for the hill to give back to the citizens! Ironically, I think that if more use of the hill were to be promoted the STV crowd would object....."TOO BUSY"

We need to capture the HILL!

Thousands of parking spaces could be created under the commons. There could even be an underground city like Montreal & Toronto. Development would be easier than scooping out under the hill. You could remove the field build layers of underground parking/retail and then replace the grass or leave the grass and tunnel below it. This could be the HRM 'BIG DIG'.

There are 1300 parking spaces under the Boston Common so there is no reason why it couldn't be done here.

Boston Common Parking...an ideal choice
http://www.mccahome.com/bcg.html

The Boston Common & Halifax Common are of similar size:

Halifax.........................................................................Boston


Cogswell St. could be used as the entrance and exit to the u/g parking garage. Cogswell St. would go down into parking and be used exclusively for the gargage access. There would be entry/exit points (existing) at Robie and North Park.

[Takeo]

I don't see that being successful. Underground retail is only successful because it's always in the basements of huge bank towers with their massive populations of workers along with being tied in with major transit hubs and above ground shopping centres. Who would want to go shopping under the commons? People don't even go shopping on Barrington street and that's above ground.