City demographic stats that don't jive with outsiders' perceptions

[Steely Dan]

Uu

Originally Posted by eschaton

Unless you're counting areas east of the park, which I always thought was West Town.

Yeah, I'm talking about division east of the park, which isn't technically in the Humboldt CA, but is historically Puerto Rican enough that I lump it into it. Sorry for the confusion.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I'm not surprised with the other three, but is Humboldt Park really gentrifying? I also thought it was about a 50/50 Black/Latino split. Unless you're counting areas east of the park, which I always thought was West Town.

Humboldt Park is slowly gentrifying. Not overnight the way Logan Square did, but probably I’d say more slowly and steadily like Pilsen.

It’s biggest disadvantage is lack of rail access

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Bay Ridge seems to be holding up as a majority white neighborhood as well, except at its northern fringe.

True, but Bay Ridge now has a huge Middle Eastern population, which Census counts as "white". There has definitely been ethnic transition from Italian-Irish-Norwegian to Middle Eastern.

Also, even though Bay Ridge is far from Manhattan, it has always had a professional class and some upscale corners, and those areas are now attracting the white gentrifying crowd looking for more living space for the money.

5th Avenue from about 65th to 85th streets is sometimes called Little Egypt. It isn't all ME, but they're probably the majority in that corridor. 3rd Avenue is very different, more upscale and more traditional white ethnic/gentrifiers. There's also an upscale, super-tight Greek mini-enclave, with giant mansions and Greek schools/churches/community centers near 3rd. Also many Russians/Ukranians in big apartment buildings in the southern end (Fort Hamilton area).

[JManc]

Is this really just a bunch of white people discussing whether or not Africans consider themselves black or not or what constitutes 'black'?

[dc_denizen]

Yes

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Crawford

No. The American black community is highly diverse, does not have a shared history, and has a large and increasing share of immigrants.

You make such bold claims.

How many Africans came to America who were not slaves from say 1783-1950?

Most black Americans were slaves in the South. They learned how to talk and act from Southerners. Wasn't something like 90% of blacks from the South at one point? They have unifying geography and history. To claim otherwise is rather absurd.

Sure, there are differences, but not as many as unifiers.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

There's always going to be divides between a group. How many generations one's family has been in a place, culture, ethnicity, religion, political views, language, accent, race, skin tone, gender, sexual orientation, class, education, occupation, region, state, city. Might as well add all the individual differences like personalities, habits, dispositions, preferences.

There are as many ways of dividing people as there are people...

Yeah I know the story.

Collective identities are myths or at least totally passé.

As an individual I can be my own nation if I want.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

True, but Bay Ridge now has a huge Middle Eastern population, which Census counts as "white". There has definitely been ethnic transition from Italian-Irish-Norwegian to Middle Eastern.

Also, even though Bay Ridge is far from Manhattan, it has always had a professional class and some upscale corners, and those areas are now attracting the white gentrifying crowd looking for more living space for the money.

5th Avenue from about 65th to 85th streets is sometimes called Little Egypt. It isn't all ME, but they're probably the majority in that corridor. 3rd Avenue is very different, more upscale and more traditional white ethnic/gentrifiers. There's also an upscale, super-tight Greek mini-enclave, with giant mansions and Greek schools/churches/community centers near 3rd. Also many Russians/Ukranians in big apartment buildings in the southern end (Fort Hamilton area).

Yeah, I knew there was a "gentrifier set" in Bay Ridge these days. I have to say I wonder if Sunset Park will be tenable as a Latino neighborhood in the longer run, between gentrifiers on either side of it on the R and the Chinese community a few blocks inland.

I know Brighton Beach is a lot of Russophone emigres these days (many Jewish, but secular) but who lives in Sea Gate, Manhattan Beach, Gerrittsen Beach, Marine Park, Mill Basin, Bergen Beach, etc?

[goat314]

Originally Posted by Crawford

No. The American black community is highly diverse, does not have a shared history, and has a large and increasing share of immigrants.

I believe his is referring to Afro-Americans, or descendants of African slaves in what we today call the United States. In that case, he is correct. That is a unique, cultural and ethnic group.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Collective identities are myths or at least totally passé.

Well, some are more passé than others.

[Capsicum]

Out of all the major racial categories (the way the US census defines them, since there's all kinds of other ways you could group people), does the "African American" grouping come out as the most unified?

African Americans are majority multigenerational Americans of African descent from West Africa, from the transatlantic slave trade. A much smaller minority comes from voluntary immigrants.

White Americans, Hispanic Americans and Asian Americans are much more split among waves of settlers and immigrants who know their origins who came at different times in history.

Native Americans probably are also more evenly split among their origins, and while forced assimilation was also a thing (many Native languages are lost or only spoken by a rare few), there's still the ties to individual ethnic groups, tribes, nations that pre-dated European conquest.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Yeah, I knew there was a "gentrifier set" in Bay Ridge these days. I have to say I wonder if Sunset Park will be tenable as a Latino neighborhood in the longer run, between gentrifiers on either side of it on the R and the Chinese community a few blocks inland.

I know Brighton Beach is a lot of Russophone emigres these days (many Jewish, but secular) but who lives in Sea Gate, Manhattan Beach, Gerrittsen Beach, Marine Park, Mill Basin, Bergen Beach, etc?

Sea Gate and Manhattan Beach are former Soviet.

Gerritson Beach is still old-school white ethnic Irish-Italian. It's like 1980 there.

Marine Park, Mill Basin and Bergen Beach still have plenty of white ethnics, but are fast becoming majority Orthodox Jewish. That's where young Orthodox families generally buy.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by goat314

I believe his is referring to Afro-Americans, or descendants of African slaves in what we today call the United States. In that case, he is correct. That is a unique, cultural and ethnic group.

We were talking the Census definition of Blacks, not African Americans.

Yes, AA's have a unique background. But Dominicans are mostly descended from African slaves too, and they're white Hispanic. West Indians are descended from slaves but don't consider themselves AA. And African immigrants aren't descended from slaves (I have no idea if they consider themselves AA).

[yaletown_fella]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Boston is perceived as not very black, but the % black is higher than NYC. Granted, this is city-proper only, by metro NYC has a higher % than Boston.

The West Coast is thought of as the Chinese mecca, but there are more Chinese in NYC metro than anywhere on the planet outside of Asia. NYC, overall, is more Asian than popularly perceived, and less Italian and African American than popularly perceived. Everyone knows about Flushing, but South Brooklyn, in particular, is becoming Asian plurality (or majority?) outside of the Jewish enclaves.

Also, the NYC Jewish population is misunderstood. Yes, NYC is very Jewish, but there are almost no major Conservative or Reform populations left outside of the gentrified precincts. NYC Jews are very Orthodox these days. If you're looking for "traditional delis" and Fran Drescher-types, they're in Boca Raton. Jewish NY is more falafel than pastrami these days.

As far as I know, currently, some upscale Long Island and CT suburbs/exurbs have a higher % of secular jews than NYC.

Sort of like how Oak Ridge, Maple, Thornhill are more jewish than Toronto nowadays.

On a percentage-of-the-total-population wise, Vancouver is still the most Chinese major city in North America.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella

As far as I know, currently, some upscale Long Island and CT suburbs/exurbs have a higher % of secular jews than NYC.

The thing is, over half of secular Jews outmarry these days, meaning the entire idea of a "secular Jewish" ethnicity is going to basically cease to exist in another two generations or so.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Well, some are more passé than others.

Of course but the idea that it is on its way out as a trait of humanity is wishful thinking on the part of some.