NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[NYguy]

I go through here frequently, and it’s not that bad. Some people like to sit on the floor because it’s squeaky clean. But for the most part, I think there should be MORE people on this side. And there will be when retail opens. The construction mess on the other side doesn’t help. Still, all the more reason for the planned improvements.


https://mobile.twitter.com/ingasaffr...33213653209088

It was clear since Moynihan Train Hall opened that the waiting area was too small and didn’t have enough seats. Today, the waiting room is full and dozens of travelers are sitting on the floor

[k1052]

It really would not kill them to just put some modern benches in.

[TowerDude]

Eventually a good deal of the people just waiting there on the floor will be able to choose to wait in the restaurants around the food court.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by mschall50

It's a bit pedestrian. Has the feel of a very nice Simon Mall; not really giving me world-class train station. New York is capable of much more. Also, how long is MSG Garden really going to be there? 20, 30, or even 40 years down the road if the Garden moves we will just be looking at another massive overhaul. Just do it right, once.

Some of the best train stations in the world are malls, just saying. For example:

JR Osaka Station





Source


Trip Advisor

Hankyu Umeda Terminal


Wikipedia


Justgola.com


Live Japan

They're pretty close to one another!
• Video Link

There are plenty more examples like this, as in literally every major train station in Japan. I can think of JR-Kobe, JR-Kyoto, JR-Namba, JR-Tennoji, Kintetsu-Abenobashi (also the largest building and department store in Japan), Kintetsu-Namba, and Nankai-Namba just off the top of my head. There are similar examples in Europe as well. The moral of the story is that successful train stations really are just giant malls.

[Crawford]

I can't think of a world-class train station that isn't essentially a giant mall. That's a feature, not a bug. You want tons of amenities, obviously.

And Moynhian is a relatively small piece of the Empire/Penn complex. If Moynihan has too much retail, you aren't gonna like Empire South, the expanded Penn, or what they eventually do with MSG.

[Mr Downtown]

East Asian train stations with no seating have two huge differences from Moynihan: they're 99% used by daily commuters, as at the two Osaka examples above (intercity travelers use Shin-Osaka instead) AND they have East Asian standards of timekeeping and how trains are boarded. The problem with Moynihan is Amtrak's bizarre insistence on airport-style boarding without having any airport-style waiting areas.

[Crawford]

Moynihan has seating, but for ticketed passengers. There's a large waiting room, it just isn't in the main concourse. It wouldn't make sense to have Amtrak-specific seating in the concourse, as that's used by all Penn users. LIRR and NJT commuters are passing through Moynihan too.

Actually, there are presently three general waiting rooms in the Penn complex - Amtrak, LIRR and NJT. It may be that the Amtrak seating is insufficient, but that's probably a question for post-pandemic times. There's also a separate premium waiting room for Acela users, called Metropolitan Lounge. It's pretty nice, generally nicer than airline lounges.

[NYguy]

https://www.lohud.com/story/news/202...ct/5902619001/

Federal transit agency backs Metro-North plan for one-seat ride to Manhattan's West Side
Riders venturing north could shave up to 75 minutes each way off their daily commute, while those headed into the city on the New Haven Line from Connecticut could save 40 minutes.


Thomas C. Zambito
September 29, 2021

The $1.6 billion plan to open Manhattan’s west side to Metro-North commuters for the first time received the go-ahead from federal transit officials Monday, opening the way for construction to begin as soon as next year.

The Federal Transit Administration’s review of the MTA’s Penn Station Access Project found it would have no significant adverse environmental impacts on local communities, natural resources, wetlands and other concerns.

New stations will be built in Co-op City, Morris Park, Parkchester and Hunts Point, giving Bronx residents an easier commute to jobs in Westchester County and Connecticut.

[NYguy]

The 9th Avenue changes at Moynihan/Farley have been happening very rapidly.


https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/n...?adppopup=true

[NYguy]

https://www.fool.com/amp/earnings/ca...ings-call-tra/

VNO earnings call
November 3, 2021


Steven Roth -- Chairman and Chief Executive Officer

…..New York has clearly emerged as the second-largest and second most important tech hub in the country. Our activities in the Penn District are full steam ahead, here's the latest. At Farley, we are targeting opening The Fuller hall on the Ninth Avenue entrance by year end. Facebook's tenant work is proceeding with first employee occupancy scheduled for second quarter 2022.

At the Moynihan Train Hall, we have completed 22 retail leases. We are gratified and validated that Starbucks reports that its Moynihan -- its new Moynihan store is trending No. 1 out of its 190 Manhattan locations. In Penn Station, our Long Island Rail Road Concourse construction is about one-third complete.

We will now own both sides of this heavily traffic concourse. It will be a big win for us. The 34th Street, half of the PENN1 lobby is open and it is spectacular. Come take a look.

Our unique three-level, world-class amenity offering will open shortly, and the other half of the PENN1 lobby which fronts our 33rd Street will be completed end of first quarter 2022. At PENN2, our full building transformation is well underway, on schedule, and on budget. The job is largely bought out.

The demolition of Hotel Penn will begin this month, creating the best development site in the city.

Both office and retail tenant interest is high the Penn District with multiple large office users now focused on PENN2. Let me review again our Penn District financing plan. Capital required to complete Farley PENN1 and PENN2 is about $1 billion before TIs and that will be paid for entirely from our cash on balance sheet. Further, Farley, PENN1, and PENN2 are free and clear, unencumbered by any mortgage debt whatsoever.

[NYguy]

The governor’s update on the plan….


https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/gov...ed-surrounding

New, World-Class Train Facility

-Creates a single level, double-height train hall that doubles passenger circulation space on the new public level from approximately 123,000 square feet to approximately 250,000 square feet and eliminates the congested, cramped and crowded passageways in existing Penn Station

-Includes a 450-foot long sunlit train hall that is the size of Moynihan's and Grand Central's halls combined

-Simplifies navigation

-Creates clear sight lines to exits and entrances
Adds 18 more escalators or stairs and 11 more elevators to platforms

-Reduced Density

-Shaves off 1.4 million square feet of development from the previous plan and decreases heights for proposed buildings.

-Provides new design controls to protect views of the Empire State Building along 33rd Street

Public Realm and Social Services

-Adds ~8 acres of public space, including a 30,000-square foot plaza comparable in size to Rockefeller Plaza and mandates public space set-asides on each building site

-Creates a Public Realm Task Force comprised of community leaders and stakeholders, which will develop a plan of prioritized public realm improvements, to be funded by a Public Realm Fund, with initial revenue from redevelopment being dedicated to this fund

-Requires community facility spaces that will prioritize much-needed social services for the neighborhood, with a particular focus on New Yorkers experiencing homelessness

-Creates underground loading/unloading for MSG, taking trucks off the street

Affordable Housing

-Allows up to 1,800 residential units, of which 540 would be permanently affordable

-Mandates one building as residential, which will include 162 permanently affordable units - more than the entire number of residences that would be displaced if the southern expansion of Penn Station occurs

Public Transit Access and Shared Streets

-Expands new underground corridors to the Sixth Avenue IND line, allowing users of the 34th Street Herald Square Station (B, F, M, N, R, W lines) seamless access to Penn Station

-Nearly doubles the existing entrances to Penn Station from 12 to 20, and requires developers to add additional subway entrances and exits directly to and from buildings, ultimately reducing density and congestion at over-crowded entrances

-Widens sidewalks throughout the neighborhood and recommends that 31st, 32nd and 33rd Streets become shared streets that prioritize pedestrians

-Adds protected bike lanes and greatly expands bike parking while reducing vehicular parking

Pedestrian-Friendly Streetscape

-Limits the size of new building commercial lobbies

-Requires that 40% of every building frontage is an "active use" such as retail and community facilities

[NYguy]

https://patch.com/new-york/midtown-n...-cuomos-vision

New Penn Station Plan Revealed: Hochul Scales Back Cuomo's Vision
Hochul revised her predecessor's controversial plan to remake the rail hub and much of Midtown by adding housing and shrinking skyscrapers.


By Nick Garber
Nov 3, 2021

….. As of Wednesday afternoon, the state had not released plans for the new project, leaving some details — like building heights — up in the air. Construction would take four to five years, Hochul said. She would not give an estimated start date, but Newsday reported it could begin by late 2022.

….Pushback against Cuomo's Empire Station had centered around the plan's prioritization of commercial development ahead of transit improvements, as well as the need to demolish multiple blocks of Midtown in order to add tracks to Penn Station — entailing the destruction of St. John the Baptist Church on 30th Street, among other structures.

The New York Times initially reported that Hochul's plan would push that rail expansion further down the road, but the governor suggested otherwise Wednesday. She said rail expansion could begin soon alongside the station work.

https://nypost.com/2021/11/03/gov-ho...n-project/amp/

Hochul puts her mark on Cuomo’s Penn Station development plan


By David Meyer
November 3, 2021

Hochul’s plan presented Wednesday would keep Cuomo’s plan to finance renovations to Penn Station through the construction of 10 skyscrapers in the immediate vicinity — but reduce the overall size of those towers by 1.4 million square feet, she said during an afternoon press conference in Manhattan.

“We can scale it down and still generate the revenue we need to fund the transformation of Penn Station while benefiting the surrounding neighborhood,” Hochul said.

She said the state would not wait for the completion of the new Gateway tunnel under the Hudson River and additional track capacity at Penn to improve the passenger experience there.

”Gateway and Penn expansion, yes, are both projects I fully support. And we will get them done,” she said.

Hochul said her version of the Penn rehab will take four to five years to complete and cost $6 to $7 billion, funded by taxes on the new skyscrapers. The station will be renamed after a New Yorker when all is said and done, she said. MTA public materials about the project have dubbed it the “Empire Station Complex.”

“Has anybody ever asked the question why we have the largest transit hub in the Western Hemisphere, named after a neighboring state?” Hochul joked. “I believe the new station for New York should be named for a New Yorker, or something to do with how iconic New York State is, and how amazing it is.”

“There’ll come a time when people say, ‘I never even heard of Penn Station,'” she added.

[Busy Bee]

Hochul said her version of the Penn rehab will take four to five years to complete and cost $6 to $7 billion, funded by taxes on the new skyscrapers. The station will be renamed after a New Yorker when all is said and done, she said. MTA public materials about the project have dubbed it the “Empire Station Complex.”

“Has anybody ever asked the question why we have the largest transit hub in the Western Hemisphere, named after a neighboring state?” Hochul joked. “I believe the new station for New York should be named for a New Yorker, or something to do with how iconic New York State is, and how amazing it is.”

“There’ll come a time when people say, ‘I never even heard of Penn Station,'” she added.

I'm with her will eveything except for this. DO NOT RENAME PENNSYLVANIA STATION! There is no f***ing reason to rename Penn Station. We already honor named the Moynihan Train Hall after a famous New Yorker, you know Dan Pat Moynihan. Does she really not know why its named Pennsylvania Station? Surely she knows the answer to that.

“There’ll come a time when people say, ‘I never even heard of Penn Station,'” she added

This is probably one of the most depressing things ive ever read.

[manchester united]

Therefore, with this new underground corridor between Herald Square station and Penn station, automatically, in few years, we will have also a direct link with a passageway between Penn station and Path. Is it right?

[TonyNYC]

Originally Posted by manchester united

Therefore, with this new underground corridor between Herald Square station and Penn station, automatically, in few years, we will have also a direct link with a passageway between Penn station and Path. Is it right?

The corridor (Gimbels Corridor) between the 6th Subway Ave/Path to Penn Station has always been there.. in the '80's the MTA shut it down.

It would need to be widened with a few more exits and more security, but it exists. Definitely remember it.. it wasn't for the faint of heart! LOL!

https://nypost.com/2010/11/28/rememb...imbels-tunnel/

[kenratboy]

Originally Posted by TonyNYC

The corridor (Gimbels Corridor) between the 6th Subway Ave/Path to Penn Station has always been there.. in the '80's the MTA shut it down.

It would need to be widened with a few more exits and more security, but it exists. Definitely remember it.. it wasn't for the faint of heart! LOL!

https://nypost.com/2010/11/28/rememb...imbels-tunnel/

Good read! As someone who only visited NYC post-9/11, only seeing the grittiness of decades past in movies (which I love and seek out, thanks Criterion Channel), it is hard to imagine how different things were.

Keeping it relevant to this thread, I hope (even at the expense of nostalgia for squeegee men) the city continues to be safe and sane enough to allow 'nice' things like the High Line, Little Island, and new/nice indoor places like these stations and maybe new tunnels.

When I visit various Asian cities, I am so jealous of beautiful indoor and outdoor spaces (public or private) with beautiful fixtures, plenty of seating, clean bathrooms (and in NYC case, bathrooms at all), safe environment, and generally things that enhance life in those cities. I feel like in NYC you often are just shuffling between places you 'belong' (from your hotel to a museum...or your home to your office), but because of the history of the city there is a general lack of the transitory amenities. It feels like this is changing.

[Busy Bee]

^ Obviously the reasons for these differences are deep and complex.

[NYguy]

https://www.crainsnewyork.com/commer...e-penn-station

Madison Square Garden owner hints it would shrink to accommodate Penn Station revamp


AARON ELSTEIN
November 9, 2021

Madison Square Garden officials might be willing to sell a portion of the world’s most famous arena to clear the way for Gov. Kathy Hochul’s plan to rebuild Penn Station.

“When the opportunity presents, that makes sense both strategically and financially, we will take that opportunity to create value,” MSG Entertainment President Andrew Lustgarten said on a conference call Tuesday, in response to a question from an analyst.

Last week Gov. Hochul unveiled her plan for redeveloping Penn Station, the nation’s largest commuter hub that is entombed underneath the Garden. Under the preliminary proposal, the arena would remain where it is, but renderings showed a grand new entrance on Eighth Avenue across from Moynihan Train Hall. Building that entrance would require demolishing the Hulu Theater at MSG.

“There will be a time to monetize,” Lustgarten said—meaning sell the theater—but added he doesn’t think a deal would be struck soon.

LightShed Partners analyst Brandon Ross estimated in 2016 that the 5,600-seat theater was worth $77 million.

Even bigger money from a Penn Station renovation could be realized by the Garden and Chief Executive James Dolan selling developers the right to build nearby.

Under zoning rules, the Garden would be granted additional air rights if the arena is utilized to renovate Penn Station, said Ross, who estimated five years ago the existing rights were worth $1.3 billion. Air rights are transferable and would be attractive to Vornado Realty Trust or other developers eyeing the area. Hochul envisions that tax revenue from up to 10 new towers would help pay for the state’s share of rebuilding Penn Station.

“The plans are in their infancy,” Ross said.

Lustgarten said MSG fully supports Hochul’s efforts to redevelop Penn Station and the surrounding streets.

“We look forward to continue working with her on many things to come that are currently in progress,” he said.

[NYguy]

Posted from the redevelopment thread, two of the big issues that always come up with the expansion/rebuilding of Penn Station are the removal of MSG, and the through running of trains through the station.

Both issues have been discussed (and shot down) in the past, and here we can see how those plans fit in with the new rebuilding of the station.

First, we have the issue of Madison Square Garden, and a question an answer session from one of the meetings earlier this year to give us some insight...




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[NYguy]

The issue of through-running was discussed at an earlier meeting. It seems there will be some through-running in the future, but not enough to offset growth.



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And to add to the discussion, the dire need for the Gateway tunnel....



• Video Link