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  #21  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2010, 10:13 AM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by itinerant View Post
Its not just the increased tax on top of the cost of the meal. Many restaurants I have visited recently have increased their before-tax prices significantly: from 10 to 20%. When asked, they have all blamed HST for increasing their costs--which they are passing on to the consumer. What?! Are they using this as an excuse to push up prices or are we really seeing increased taxes trickling through the system of transport and distribution until it hits our dinner bill? I think the latter.
Hmmm, so there is now 7% more tax on a very few number of items a restaurant will be buying, and they charge 20% more. It's like when the gas tax goes up 4 cents, but the price at the pump jumps 20 cents.

There is is no increased taxes trickling through the system of transport and distribution that can't be recovered. There is HST sold on items to businesses, but if you are buying an HST item and then adding value to it and reselling it to consumers (like canned fruit salad), or using it to add value to other items (like a stove), you get the tax back. They are called HST input tax credits. Any businesses charging more because they are paying HST are either really bad at accounting or are lying cheats.

P.S. Any restaurant that uses a lot of pre-prepared food items that they are paying HST on is a restaurant not worth visiting in my opinion. Any fresh food that a restaurant should be using is tax free. Why should i pay $20 to have someone heat up some $2 canned crap? I can do that at home, and without the surly attitude and being ignored for three quarters of an hour.

Maybe it's time that restaurants in Vancouver realize they run horrible businesses that are over priced and often have poor service and little to no ambiance, and for years have been lucky that Vancouverites just didn't care enough to stop paying. Now that there is an excuse for the customer to not pay exorbitant prices, the food industry is crying fowl. Boo Hoo. I don't know if I've ever been anywhere in the world and paid more for a bellow average meal and watery beer (or a teeny tiny glass of wine) than I do in Vancouver. Some free rides come to an end.
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  #22  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2010, 2:06 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
Hmmm, so there is now 7% more tax on a very few number of items a restaurant will be buying, and they charge 20% more. It's like when the gas tax goes up 4 cents, but the price at the pump jumps 20 cents.

Maybe it's time that restaurants in Vancouver realize they run horrible businesses that are over priced and often have poor service and little to no ambiance, and for years have been lucky that Vancouverites just didn't care enough to stop paying. Now that there is an excuse for the customer to not pay exorbitant prices, the food industry is crying fowl. Boo Hoo. I don't know if I've ever been anywhere in the world and paid more for a bellow average meal and watery beer (or a teeny tiny glass of wine) than I do in Vancouver. Some free rides come to an end.
I hear you! These pricks lost my sympathy when they jacked up their prices for the Olympics. I'd like to know how many actually lowered their prices when the games were gone.

Not to mention they are staffing their businesses with the lowest minimum wage in the country. No, can't say I have any sympathy for them.

For the record, HST hasn't changed my dining habits at all. We don't eat out too much, but it certainly hasn't decreased.
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  #23  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2010, 2:58 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Decreased my dining significantly. Despise that they didn't do a VAT and include HST in the prices we pay. It's not the amount that I care about, it's that the price I see is much lower than the price I pay.
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  #24  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2010, 3:02 PM
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@ Warren, true that. A bakery I (used to) go to raised their prices ~ 15%, blamed the HST, and then proceeded to charge HST on top of my purchase. Needless to say, I won't be going there anymore.

It is surprising to see the 10% liquor tax at restaurants gone as well, replaced by the HST. I wonder how this effects liquor sales and ultimately profits, as it is a high profit-margin item for most restaurants.

My pattern of eating out/tipping hasn't really changed otherwise.

@ twoNeurons, it is annoying to pay the tax extra, but it adds to transparency which I think is always a good thing.

Last edited by mezzanine; Aug 4, 2010 at 3:14 PM.
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  #25  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2010, 3:12 PM
phesto phesto is offline
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Likewise I've switched from specialty coffees at Starbucks to cheaper drinks. And I've definitely noticed my local one is not as busy as before the HST.
I walk by 4 Starbucks on the way to work, and for the first time that I've seen, all 4 were lined up out the door! I've also noticed Tim Horton's is just as busy in the past month.

Doesn't seem to be having much of an impact on coffee shops, at least downtown.
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  #26  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2010, 4:26 PM
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Originally Posted by phesto View Post
I walk by 4 Starbucks on the way to work, and for the first time that I've seen, all 4 were lined up out the door! I've also noticed Tim Horton's is just as busy in the past month.

Doesn't seem to be having much of an impact on coffee shops, at least downtown.
Wow, you must live really close to your work.
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  #27  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2010, 4:26 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by mezzanine View Post
It is surprising to see the 10% liquor tax at restaurants gone as well, replaced by the HST. I wonder how this effects liquor sales and ultimately profits, as it is a high profit-margin item for most restaurants.
Yes 10% Liquor tax was replaced by the HST increase (which is technically 7%), but the liquor board increased prices to compensate. My friend runs a bar and gave me the details. So net is the same to the government really.

My visit to Europe was extremely enlightening with respect to pricing. Sticker prices included taxes and were always round numbers.. 2, 3, 4 Euros for something.

At the end of the day, who cares who gets what share of the $2 I spend on a pizza slice.
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  #28  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2010, 7:17 PM
vanlaw vanlaw is offline
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The only changes I have made is I now tip on the pre-tax portion. i always should have been doing that anyway, but for some reason I would usually just figure the tip on the total after-tax .....Don't eat out enough to really see a differnece. Also have started bringing my lunch to work more...all of a sudden that $7.50 salad being $8.40 after tax was enough to get me to spend the 5 min in the morning to throw something together.
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  #29  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2010, 7:38 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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You know that $7.50 salad was actually $7.88 on June 30 right?
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  #30  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2010, 9:05 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Or looked at another way: Those 200 salads you buy for lunch during the year...

Your cost increased from $76 to $180.

And that's just for lunch.

If the tax had been hidden, retailers would've raised prices, but I doubt prices would've gone up 7% across the board.

With "transparent" taxes, retailers raise prices at the same time as the government.

I don't buy the "transparency" in tax issue.

Easy way to solve that is in consumer goods put both prices on the tag. They do that in Japan. It seems to work well.

e.g.
---
pre-tax: $35.71
Price: $40
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  #31  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2010, 9:06 PM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Yes 10% Liquor tax was replaced by the HST increase (which is technically 7%), but the liquor board increased prices to compensate. My friend runs a bar and gave me the details. So net is the same to the government really.

My visit to Europe was extremely enlightening with respect to pricing. Sticker prices included taxes and were always round numbers.. 2, 3, 4 Euros for something.

At the end of the day, who cares who gets what share of the $2 I spend on a pizza slice.
WRT the liquor tax, the thing is the control board raises prices so the cost of purchase for a restaurant is the same as it was before. But for the end customer, they should end up paying less on alcohol purchases at restaurants than they did before. The change to HST had a net zero effect at the distribution branch, but had the effect of lowering the tax on the consumer's side by 3%. Everyone's liquor bill at restaurants should be cheaper now, and the restaurants should be making the same as they did before off booze.

I also agree that with the move to HST, it should have been put into law that all displayed prices should include all applicable tax. Why should I look in a menu, then have to figure out the tax to see if I'm spending too much. It would also be helpful at the super market, so that I don't have to look at a price, and then figure out if there is going to be tax on that item or not. People should just be able to look at a price on the shelf or menu, and pay that price at the till. Show them how much they paid in tax on their receipt.

I would also like to see restaurants suck it up and pay their valued employees more so they don't feel like TIPS are their due salary. TIPS should be a reward for good service, not expected to cover the cost of employment. For too long TIPS have been treated like a 15% restaurant duty, and not an optional reward for good service, and I think service in the lower mainland has diminished drastically because too many waiters feel the tip is a guarantee. Sorry, but it's not. You have to work hard to get extra money from me. And I think with the HST and people being more discretionary with their money, that's starting to happen.
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  #32  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2010, 9:35 PM
vanlaw vanlaw is offline
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
You know that $7.50 salad was actually $7.88 on June 30 right?
Of course, and was already feeling some guilt everyday for my laziness causing me to spend that. But the extra 7%/55 cents was the "straw that broke the camels back" so to speak. I think it is like that for a lot of peopale. That $4 cup of coffe is now 4.48 as opposed to 4.20. It seems that we notice more on the small purchases than the larger ones, for some strage reason.
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  #33  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2010, 9:40 PM
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^^^ yup thats me too - my latte went from 4.67 to 4.95 and that was just too much - it was always ridiculous but that was the point it made me realize it
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  #34  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2010, 10:10 PM
WaxItYourself WaxItYourself is offline
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Originally Posted by Yume-sama View Post
Wow, you must live really close to your work.
That probably means he lives 4 blocks from work. Either that or he lives 3 blocks and passes by the area in Vancouver where there is a Starbucks on each corner of an intersection.
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  #35  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2010, 2:33 AM
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
With "transparent" taxes, retailers raise prices at the same time as the government.

I don't buy the "transparency" in tax issue.

Easy way to solve that is in consumer goods put both prices on the tag. They do that in Japan. It seems to work well.

e.g.
---
pre-tax: $35.71
Price: $40
But retailers are at their discretion to raise prices anytime. Some restaurants raised their prices anyway, *and* charged HST on your purchase. Pre-tax pricing makes this easy to call out.

And transparency? vanlaw hits the nail on the head here:

Quote:
Also have started bringing my lunch to work more...all of a sudden that $7.50 salad being $8.40 after tax was enough to get me to spend the 5 min in the morning to throw something together.
IMO comsumptive taxes are more transparent than income taxes. it's clear what you are charged on, it encourages less consumption (IMO a good thing) and avoidable if you do small things like make your own lunch.

Think to your income taxes - do you remember how much you paid? did you maximize your deductions? RRSPs? If Victoria wanted to do a straight money grab a slight increase to income taxes would (likely) cause less grief than the HST as one cannot immediately grasp the effects of a percentage hike to your marginal rate if it's not tax season.
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  #36  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2010, 10:10 AM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by SpongeG View Post
^^^ yup thats me too - my latte went from 4.67 to 4.95 and that was just too much - it was always ridiculous but that was the point it made me realize it
That's what I think is going on. It's not so much that the tax is so huge that people can't afford anything anymore, it's that people are tired of the way prices were and this is just the last straw.

For example, on TV today I saw an add for a mini Blizzard: Only $2.99. WTF!? Oh thanks DQ, giving me less ice cream than I want for more than I would ever want to pay, awesome deal! I remember when they were $2.99 for a large. It's a squirt of milk and a cup of sugar, frozen, then with handful of cheap bulk candy thrown on it. I can almost buy 4 liters of ice cream for that price.

It's this insane pricing that I think is the real root of the sour grapes, the extra 7% just made it obvious. It's easy to complain to the government, but when you hear of Okanagan orchards being forced out of business because they can't even sell their fruit at 3 cents a pound, yet you buy apples for almost $2/pound in the store, I think the real issue is the way we are gouged by our businesses.
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  #37  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2010, 4:22 PM
JimmyJ JimmyJ is offline
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
Despise that they didn't do a VAT and include HST in the prices we pay. It's not the amount that I care about, it's that the price I see is much lower than the price I pay.
Anyone remember the FST? Used to be included in the price, but dumped when the GST came in.

Still paid PST on top though, so PST was essentially a tax on a tax...

I worked retail when the FST was still in effect, and when they changed to the GST, there was a huge overhead by the company to re-pricetag everything (it was a major now-defunct department store). With HST included in the price, companies would have to do the same everytime the tax changed.
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  #38  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2010, 8:05 PM
red-paladin red-paladin is offline
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We already know there is a constitutional reason why gst/hst can't be included in the price in Canada.

Quote:
Much of the reason for the notoriety of the GST in Canada is for reasons of an obscure Constitutional provision. Other countries with a Value Added Tax legislate that posted prices include the tax; thus, consumers are vaguely aware of it but "what they see is what they pay". Canada cannot do this because jurisdiction over most advertising and price-posting is in the domain of the provinces under the Constitution Act, 1867[7]. The provinces have chosen not to require prices to include the GST, similar to their provincial sales taxes. As a result, virtually all prices (except for gas pump prices, taxi meters and a few other things) are shown "pre-GST", at the merchant's choice.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_a...rent_situation
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  #39  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2010, 12:44 AM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by JimmyJ View Post
Anyone remember the FST? Used to be included in the price, but dumped when the GST came in.

Still paid PST on top though, so PST was essentially a tax on a tax...

I worked retail when the FST was still in effect, and when they changed to the GST, there was a huge overhead by the company to re-pricetag everything (it was a major now-defunct department store). With HST included in the price, companies would have to do the same everytime the tax changed.
The price of products (sales, old, discontinued) changes more often than the tax rate. Most products are on and off shelves before the tax rate changes. When I used to work retail, we would get a weekly package from head office that would have a hundred or two price changes and sales in it and they would have to be up by the end of the next day. At least when the tax changes you have several months of preparation time.

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Originally Posted by red-paladin View Post
We already know there is a constitutional reason why gst/hst can't be included in the price in Canada.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_a...rent_situation
Doesn't mean that the BC legislature can't change the provincial law (like they did to adopt the HST) to have prices include applicable tax. Businesses just like to give the customer the 12% surprise after they've committed to already buying. You can't really go "oh gee, the tax is that much on my meal" after you've already eaten it. It's a subliminal tactic that actually works, just like using $9.99 instead of $10.
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