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  #201  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 7:32 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Just for Paris, Gare du Nord is very much in the heart. So is Gare du l'Est. So is Gare du Montparnasse. Central Paris sprawls.

I always walk from the station to my hotel...

European centres cover way more ground than their North American counterparts of similar size.

this is not the outskirts of Paris:


Central station, it could be argued, is neither at the heart of Montreal. Or Windsor Station, when both were constructed. (Bonaventure was, but it is gone)
The key is to have a good choice of hotels within walking distance, an urban environment and easy access to the city's attractions.

This is now very important to me in planning trips, although it is not always possible especially in the USA.

Who wants $70 taxi or uber rides or being forced to rent a car?
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  #202  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 7:40 PM
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Originally Posted by headhorse View Post
^ the problem that is trying to be solved is reducing the massive subsidies for the oil and gas industry and replacing it with a more economical, democratic, and sustainable form of transportation.
???????
Can you elaborate. First I've heard of any subsidies to the energy industry.
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  #203  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 7:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Just for Paris, Gare du Nord is very much in the heart. So is Gare du l'Est. So is Gare du Montparnasse. Central Paris sprawls.

I always walk from the station to my hotel...
Greater Paris has a population close to 12 Million. That makes Toronto and Montreal look tiny.

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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
European centres cover way more ground than their North American counterparts of similar size.
That's because our cities are younger and have more sky scrapers, creating a smaller, denser centre.

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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
this is not the outskirts of Paris:
See above.

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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Central station, it could be argued, is neither at the heart of Montreal. Or Windsor Station, when both were constructed. (Bonaventure was, but it is gone)
Bonaventure station was directly adjacent to Windsor Station. Are you are thinking of Place Viger (which still exists)? Or maybe Moreau Station (gone) or McGill Street Terminal (still exists)?

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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Montreal is my hometown and I taught at UdeM, and no, we are not downtown by any stretch of the imagination.

As for Canora, I have family in TMR so I am extremely familiar with the location.
How many times do I have to say that no one is saying it is downtown? It is just once the REM opens it will be very quick to get downtown.
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  #204  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 7:55 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
The key is to have a good choice of hotels within walking distance, an urban environment and easy access to the city's attractions.

This is now very important to me in planning trips, although it is not always possible especially in the USA.

Who wants $70 taxi or uber rides or being forced to rent a car?
On a broader level, since we're on SSP and most of us are interested in positive city building, on that metric there isn't any justification for pulling our VIA stations out of the downtowns of our cities. (Where they actually are downtown - in places like Ottawa and Kingston they aren't, and aren't likely to be relocated).

Perhaps there is a transportation engineering or whatever reason to move these stations out of the city core, but in terms of making/keeping our cities dynamic... naaaaaah.
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  #205  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
On a broader level, since we're on SSP and most of us are interested in positive city building, on that metric there isn't any justification for pulling our VIA stations out of the downtowns of our cities. (Where they actually are downtown - in places like Ottawa and Kingston they aren't, and aren't likely to be relocated).

Perhaps there is a transportation engineering or whatever reason to move these stations out of the city core, but in terms of making/keeping our cities dynamic... naaaaaah.
If the railway is grade-separated and isn't a barrier to city functioning, there's not much of a case.

However, a smaller city that's been bisected by railways and whose railways were a barrier to improving life in that city, I could see the case.

North Bay, Ontario is an instructive case. The city had two main rail lines cross it. When CN abandoned its line, the city ripped it out and repurposed the land. When CP reduced their operations, the city rehabbed the land it was gifted with and improved its connection to the waterfront. This has proven to be more beneficial.

North Bay Rail CN Removal
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  #206  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 8:14 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post

Who wants $70 taxi or uber rides or being forced to rent a car?
Where does it cost $70 to get a cab from the main train station to the central part of the city?
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  #207  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 8:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
On a broader level, since we're on SSP and most of us are interested in positive city building, on that metric there isn't any justification for pulling our VIA stations out of the downtowns of our cities. (Where they actually are downtown - in places like Ottawa and Kingston they aren't, and aren't likely to be relocated).

Perhaps there is a transportation engineering or whatever reason to move these stations out of the city core, but in terms of making/keeping our cities dynamic... naaaaaah.
But it isn't VIA's job to make/keep our cities dynamic. It is to move people quickly and efficiently. If limited access to the downtown station prevents them from doing this, they need to find a station that they have full control over. I don't think they will ever have the money to build new downtown stations with new track to those stations, so alternatives need to be found.

Asking it another way, would you rather see VIA gradually reduce the number of intercity trains to Montreal and Toronto as commuter service grows and keep the station downtown, or greatly increase the number of trains to those cities, but the station is 5km from downtown?
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  #208  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 8:19 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
The bus ride to Quebec City alone would be 10 hours while a Halifax-Toronto flight is about 2.5.
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Anybody that suggests taking a bus ride that's longer than four hours likely has never taken a bus for longer than four hours.
Nothing can compete with air for travel speed over long distances.

That begs the question: What is the purpose of VIA?

Certainly, it has a mandate to serve places that aren't connected by road to the rest of Canada. Unless those communities get some sort of alternative, VIA isn't going away.

Now, should it be a regional operator, providing good service between the cities of Central Canada along the Corridor? Admittedly, the private sector can do that too - should the federal government subsidize something a private operator could do, either via air or bus?

Or should it focus on providing a national network from coast-to-coast? Like people have mentioned, it's so slow as be useless for anything but tourists. It's about as expensive as air travel too, so there's not much advantage cost-wise.

Right now, it seems to do everything and nothing at the same time. Perhaps a focus on one of the elements might lead to a more productive outcome.
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  #209  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
But it isn't VIA's job to make/keep our cities dynamic. It is to move people quickly and efficiently. If limited access to the downtown station prevents them from doing this, they need to find a station that they have full control over. I don't think they will ever have the money to build new downtown stations with new track to those stations, so alternatives need to be found.

Asking it another way, would you rather see VIA gradually reduce the number of intercity trains to downtown Montreal and Toronto as commuter service grows, or greatly increase the number of trains to those cities, but the station is 5km from downtown?
I can appreciate that but neither Toronto Union nor Montréal Centrale are near capacity at the moment. (Notwithstanding temporary overcrowding issues due to construction work at Union.)

They're reconfiguring Union so it can handle *double* the number of people 15 years from now, are they not?
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  #210  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Greater Paris has a population close to 12 Million. That makes Toronto and Montreal look tiny.



That's because our cities are younger and have more sky scrapers, creating a smaller, denser centre.



See above.



Bonaventure station was directly adjacent to Windsor Station. Are you are thinking of Place Viger (which still exists)? Or maybe Moreau Station (gone) or McGill Street Terminal (still exists)?



How many times do I have to say that no one is saying it is downtown? It is just once the REM opens it will be very quick to get downtown.
Why are you getting so testy?
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  #211  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 9:21 PM
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Why are you getting so testy?
Not testy. Just you seem to be putting words in my mouth.
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  #212  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 9:40 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
We aren't talking boonies but 5 km from Central Station. As acottawa said:


Gare Parc is further from downtown and the Blue line doesn't even go downtown so I don't see what the advantage would be, but it is another option.
Perhaps, but if the station is meant to serve the bulk of the city's population (not counting places like West Island that are closer to Dorval Via) then the most important things are that it's close the the population centre and close to transportation options isn't it? In a city of 1.8 million in a metro area of over 4 million, downtown holds a small fraction of the population. Yes it's the single most important part of the metro area, but it's still just one part and a place where most people don't live.

As for the Blue line, it may not got downtown itself, but it's still a frequent, fast rapid transit connection across the geographic centre of the city connecting to the orange line twice as well as to REM.
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  #213  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Perhaps, but if the station is meant to serve the bulk of the city's population (not counting places like West Island that are closer to Dorval Via) then the most important things are that it's close the the population centre and close to transportation options isn't it? In a city of 1.8 million in a metro area of over 4 million, downtown holds a small fraction of the population. Yes it's the single most important part of the metro area, but it's still just one part and a place where most people don't live.
.
This is a good point, though for intercity rail where people want to go is just as important (or moreso) as where people live. And downtown is where the largest people tend to want to go in a city.

I don't live in downtown Ottawa or even in Ottawa itself, but a downtown rail station would probably be more convenient to me and my wife (for a variety of reasons) than the current station in the east end.
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  #214  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 9:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
This is a good point, though for intercity rail where people want to go is just as important (or moreso) as where people live. And downtown is where the largest people tend to want to go in a city.

I don't live in downtown Ottawa or even in Ottawa itself, but a downtown rail station would probably be more convenient to me and my wife (for a variety of reasons) than the current station in the east end.

All the more reason to locate it a bit farther out. Encourage them to get a bit more exercise.



Sorry, couldn't resist.
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  #215  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 9:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
All the more reason to locate it a bit farther out. Encourage them to get a bit more exercise.



Sorry, couldn't resist.
"largest number of people"

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  #216  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 10:01 PM
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So if the argument is that VIA is needed to connect towns then fine. That said, they should also have to damn well pay for it. Calculate the average subsidy given on the Corridor routes and apply it nationwide. Fare is fair. If they want to take it then go ahead but be prepared to pay for it.

When in a small town it is patently unreasonable to expect the same services as one finds in the larger cities. Healthcare is also a right but that doesn't mean that every Tom, Dick, & Harry settlement gets to have a hospital or a school/college/gov't offices/transit etc for that matter. It's called setting priorities. If these little places need to be connected by transportation and one doesn't have a car or can't drive then replace the damn trains with buses that won't have to be subsized to the obscene levels of up to $500/trip.

If VIA and the government were REALLY interested in providing transportation for these areas then a bus will do and buses are cheaper and faster alternatives to VIA while providing daily frequent service as opposed to a useless 2 or 3 times a week. The travelling public in these areas would be far better served and with the standard VIA train subsidy at the Corridor average applied to the bus service, the price would be drastically lower and really provide an accessible transportation service that VIA trains can't.. Sell VIA's non-Corridor routes to tourist operatos and funnel that money into a fleet of inter-city buses...........like transit not every area justifies a subway but buses provide the services that are needed and most cost effective.

Also whatever happened to the radical idea of actually asking people effected what they want? Ask Albertans if they would rather keep their slow boat to China VIA service or have that line cancelled and using those operational subsidies to resurrect the Cal/RD/Edm corrior. I would say 95% of Albertans woyuld choice the latter.
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  #217  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Perhaps, but if the station is meant to serve the bulk of the city's population (not counting places like West Island that are closer to Dorval Via) then the most important things are that it's close the the population centre and close to transportation options isn't it? In a city of 1.8 million in a metro area of over 4 million, downtown holds a small fraction of the population. Yes it's the single most important part of the metro area, but it's still just one part and a place where most people don't live.

As for the Blue line, it may not got downtown itself, but it's still a frequent, fast rapid transit connection across the geographic centre of the city connecting to the orange line twice as well as to REM.
Even if the island of Montréal now has a population of more than 2M, ( 1.88M in 2011) the population growth has not come from the West Island or the East end. All the growth came from within the city of Montréal. The central portion of the island is where the government will put all its cash.

The REM is designed to bring people downtown as fast as possible. Station Rive-Sud (REM) in Brossard will act like Station Cartier (Métro) in Laval.

Last edited by GreaterMontréal; Feb 13, 2019 at 10:23 PM.
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  #218  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
So if the argument is that VIA is needed to connect towns then fine. That said, they should also have to damn well pay for it. Calculate the average subsidy given on the Corridor routes and apply it nationwide. Fare is fair. If they want to take it then go ahead but be prepared to pay for it.

When in a small town it is patently unreasonable to expect the same services as one finds in the larger cities. Healthcare is also a right but that doesn't mean that every Tom, Dick, & Harry settlement gets to have a hospital or a school/college/gov't offices/transit etc for that matter. It's called setting priorities. If these little places need to be connected by transportation and one doesn't have a car or can't drive then replace the damn trains with buses that won't have to be subsized to the obscene levels of up to $500/trip.

If VIA and the government were REALLY interested in providing transportation for these areas then a bus will do and buses are cheaper and faster alternatives to VIA while providing dail service as opposed to a useless 2 or 3 times a week. The travelling public in these areas would be far better served and with the standard VIA train subsidy at the Corridor average, the price would be drastically lower and really provide an accessible transportation service that VIA trains can't.. Sell VIA's non-Corridor routes to tourist operatos and funnel that money into a fleet of inter-city buses...........like transit not every area justifies a subway but buses provide the services that are needed and most cost effective.

Also whatever happened to the radical idea of actually asking people effected what they want? Ask Albertans if they would rather keep their slow boat to China VIA service or have that line cancelled and using those operational subsidies to resurrect the Cal/RD/Edm corrior. I would say 95% of Albertans woyuld choice the latter.
On that note, I’ve thought that, unless those small settlements can grow into something, people should just abandon them and move to the fringe of big cities if housing affordability’s a big deal (which it is). It’s sort of like all or nothing.
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  #219  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2019, 10:46 PM
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Well if your wish is that these towns are depopulating then by all means continue the VIA service. N.Ontario and rural West has been depopulating for a long time with their VIA service. If VIA is suppose to help small towns then it has been a stellar failure.

Question...........yes, I want an honest answer...........If you didn't have a car or weren't able to drive and so you needed inter-city transportation would you rather have a frequent, reliable, faster, and affordable bus service or a train that comes by 2 or 3 times a week {as opposed to 3 times a day}, is slower, less reliable, and costs 3 times as much?
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  #220  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2019, 2:13 AM
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I am totally fine with having a full fare recovery ticketing plan for VIA. Just as soon as we completely halt all subsidies for roads. Every fucking last dime. "they should also have to damn well pay for it. "
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