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  #261  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2020, 1:18 AM
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The buildings on the site plan are obvious place holders. But still, for scaling purposes, it's a little skewed as is. Here in this altered version, you get a better sense for scale, as well as the Hudson Yards towers....















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  #262  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2020, 1:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
MSG doesn't need to move far... these notions of relocating to Sunnnyside or Bronx or wherever don't need to be as the solution is obvious: PABT. The PA needs to acquire all the land they need to for a new bus terminal (and maybe explore a two-track MN Hudson Line rush-hour terminal veering from the west side line/Empire connection cut) and then they need to work with the Dolans and the city to put a new MSG on top of the current bus terminal site or a combination of over the old and the new or over the terminal and LT approach spaghetti ramps between 36th and 41st, 9th and 10th aves. There is plenty of space for a new MSG just a few blocks away. A little imagination would go a long long way.
What about on the piers by Javits. There would probably need to be streetcars or something added but it would free up so much land to do it there.
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  #263  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2020, 1:34 AM
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What about on the piers by Javits. There would probably need to be streetcars or something added but it would free up so much land to do it there.
The Garden won't move anywhere without multiple lines of direct transit.



More reading on what will be studied during the DEIS...































The advisory committee...


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Empire Station Complex Community Advisory Committee


Hon. Gale Brewer, President, Borough of Manhattan

Hon. Richard Gottfried, Assemblyman, New York State Assembly

Hon. Brad Hoylman, State Senator, New York State Senate

Hon. Robert Jackson, State Senator, New York State Senate

Hon. Corey Johnson, Speaker, New York City Council

Hon. Carolyn Maloney, Congresswoman, U.S. House of Representatives

Hon. Jerry Nadler, Congressman, U.S. House of Representatives

Dan Biederman, President, 34th Street Partnership

Alfred C. Cerullo, III, President & CEO, Grand Central Partnership

Elizabeth Goldstein, President, Municipal Arts Society

Danny Harris, Executive Director, Transportation Alternatives

Wendy Hilliard, Former President, Women’s Sports Foundation

​Hope Knight, President & CEO, Greater Jamaica Development Corporation

Gary LaBarbera, President, Building & Construction Trades Council of Greater New York

Jeffrey LeFrancois, First Vice Chair, Community Board 4 (Manhattan)

Wally Rubin, District Manager, Community Board 5 (Manhattan)

Nick Sifuentes, Executive Director, Tri-State Transportation Campaign

Jessica Walker, President & CEO, Manhattan Chamber of Commerce

Tom Wright, President & CEO, Regional Plan Association

Kathryn S. Wylde, President & CEO, Partnership for New York City
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  #264  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2020, 1:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
MSG doesn't need to move far... these notions of relocating to Sunnnyside or Bronx or wherever don't need to be as the solution is obvious: PABT. The PA needs to acquire all the land they need to for a new bus terminal (and maybe explore a two-track MN Hudson Line rush-hour terminal veering from the west side line/Empire connection cut) and then they need to work with the Dolans and the city to put a new MSG on top of the current bus terminal site or a combination of over the old and the new or over the terminal and LT approach spaghetti ramps between 36th and 41st, 9th and 10th aves. There is plenty of space for a new MSG just a few blocks away. A little imagination would go a long long way.
The Bronx is a great location, and a new MSG could help to revitalize the area.
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  #265  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2020, 2:16 AM
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The Bronx is a great location, and a new MSG could help to revitalize the area.
If you think there will be a new MSG in the Bronx, you're delusional. Face it folks, MSG aint going anywhere, particularly outside of Manhattan. The best option was the Farley Building, and they pulled out of that. They could build a new MSG with towers above, somewhat like was originally planned with Barclays. That would allow the Garden to be lifted, and daylight to flow into a new Penn Station. But with Amtrak and the LIRR moving over into the Farley Building, which will be amazing, there just isn't enough of an incentive to do it. The option to move the theater off of 8th Avenue allowing daylight in is still on the table. Moving the Garden itself, not so much.
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  #266  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2020, 3:03 AM
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
If you think there will be a new MSG in the Bronx, you're delusional. Face it folks, MSG aint going anywhere, particularly outside of Manhattan. The best option was the Farley Building, and they pulled out of that. They could build a new MSG with towers above, somewhat like was originally planned with Barclays. That would allow the Garden to be lifted, and daylight to flow into a new Penn Station. But with Amtrak and the LIRR moving over into the Farley Building, which will be amazing, there just isn't enough of an incentive to do it. The option to move the theater off of 8th Avenue allowing daylight in is still on the table. Moving the Garden itself, not so much.
I know that there won’t be, but I think that there should be. The Dolans are reprehensible.
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  #267  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2020, 3:11 AM
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Rebuilding MSG, and with space above it (office/mixed-used) could be the best option. Tons of wasted air space above MSG that could be put to good use.

It would almost be cool if they could rebuild it on the river (almost like a Pier style development), but the cost would probally be absurd.
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  #268  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2020, 10:35 AM
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Moving MSG to the Bronx would make it the boxing capital of the world to be fair.
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  #269  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2020, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
Rebuilding MSG, and with space above it (office/mixed-used) could be the best option. Tons of wasted air space above MSG that could be put to good use.

It would almost be cool if they could rebuild it on the river (almost like a Pier style development), but the cost would probally be absurd.
Is it possible to build a skyscraper over a large column-free area? Trading floors are one thing, but an arena is totally different.


The Bronx isn't the only good alternative. I think that LIC is also a good option, as is East Harlem, but having a huge arena in the densest part of Manhattan is a waste.
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  #270  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2020, 5:00 PM
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
Rebuilding MSG, and with space above it (office/mixed-used) could be the best option. Tons of wasted air space above MSG that could be put to good use.

It would almost be cool if they could rebuild it on the river (almost like a Pier style development), but the cost would probally be absurd.

I think there's between 4 - 5 msf of development rights on the MSG site. There should be towers built above a newly built arena.







Give it the Grand Central treatment...




https://www.architakes.com/?p=13036




https://www.pinterest.com/pin/293508100685298490/
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  #271  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2020, 5:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
MSG doesn't need to move far... these notions of relocating to Sunnnyside or Bronx or wherever don't need to be as the solution is obvious: PABT.
That would be a horrible location, even worse than the present location.

And the PABT is the most valuable land owned by the PA; the odds of them foregoing the revenue from 12 million square feet of air rights above/around the terminal and approaches for an arena is nil.
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  #272  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2020, 6:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
That would be a horrible location, even worse than the present location.

And the PABT is the most valuable land owned by the PA; the odds of them foregoing the revenue from 12 million square feet of air rights above/around the terminal and approaches for an arena is nil.
The PABT is another sore point for me. That POS does not belong there. It should be in Seacaucus.
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  #273  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2020, 7:34 PM
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MSG can stay but it needs to be totally redesigned and the existing theater needs to go for a train station head house. They could restack MSG so the bowl sits above a new theater on the 7th Avenue side (2 penn would have to come down and go into the air rights pool). Which would also create more breathing room for a new Penn Station. The air rights could be used on the corner/s of the MSG superblock elevated over the lobby of the new MSG or even moved offsite to a neighboring parcel
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  #274  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2020, 9:32 PM
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From my calculations, this would be the site of the largest of the towers on 30th Street...


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  #275  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2020, 11:35 PM
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That would be a horrible location, even worse than the present location.
Please elaborate, I'm just curious why you think that so emphatically. It seems pretty obvious to me you could fit a new arena bounded by 41st/8th/42nd east of the McGraw-Hill building pretty comfortably and have a tower about it if the PA was looking to maximize the site.
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  #276  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2020, 3:41 AM
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
If you think there will be a new MSG in the Bronx, you're delusional. Face it folks, MSG aint going anywhere, particularly outside of Manhattan. The best option was the Farley Building, and they pulled out of that. They could build a new MSG with towers above, somewhat like was originally planned with Barclays. That would allow the Garden to be lifted, and daylight to flow into a new Penn Station. But with Amtrak and the LIRR moving over into the Farley Building, which will be amazing, there just isn't enough of an incentive to do it. The option to move the theater off of 8th Avenue allowing daylight in is still on the table. Moving the Garden itself, not so much.
What happens if the city doesnt renew the special permit?
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  #277  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2020, 12:45 PM
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What happens if the city doesnt renew the special permit?
Nothing. It’s a tool the city has as some type of leverage. But make no mistake - the city doesn’t want to lose the Garden. Despite it’s horrid appearance, it is the “crown jewel” of all the city’s stadiums and arenas, often referred to as “the world’s most famous arena”. It’s a huge draw, with spinoffs in other cities. The problem is that the current configuration keeps Penn Station burried. “Lifting” the Garden would allow for more daylight, but as I mentioned earlier, operations of the LIRR and Amtrak are moving into the Farley Building, which will be amazing. Added to that, the plan for the extended station south. Each one of those makes it less imperative for the Garden to move.

In about 20 years or so, when this redevelopment plan is complete, along with the Hudson Yards, the city’s insatiable appetite for office space will put the undeniably prime development site that is MSG into play. And the solution is to build a new Garden with towers above. But I think the time for the fantasy of moving the Garden offsite has passed. Any site in Manhattan that could support a new Garden (the land, massive transit) could support towers. And in the world of Manhattan, towers rule. Which is why I think the current site will be on the table for towers in the future.
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  #278  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2020, 3:25 PM
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Continuing a look at the sites, this is site 3:










Another look at the eastern portion of site 2:






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  #279  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2020, 1:56 AM
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How many rock climbers have scaled the facade of the Stewart Hotel, do you think?
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  #280  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2020, 3:04 PM
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How many rock climbers have scaled the facade of the Stewart Hotel, do you think?
Probably tempting for many.
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