[Halifax] St. Patrick's Alexandra | ? m | ? fl | Proposed

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

It’s nice to see a tangible estimate of what would be needed to support a grocery store in the area. I’ve visited an urban format No Frills in st. James town, I thought it would be a logical fit for the North End because of the more affordable foods, and it would give Loblaws a foothold against the Oxford Sobeys (even though I prefer Empire to Loblaws).

I think a No Frills would also be more unique within a larger area on the peninsula. That would give it a distinct advantage compared so simply setting up Sobeys location #3 or whatever it would be.

This is one of those simple things that would really improve the quality of life on the peninsula, particularly for those who do not own a car. And it's a good example of growth and development that can serve the existing population. I think the notion that growth in the North End is mostly "for the new people" is exaggerated and needlessly divisive. There is no reason why affordable housing can't be built, and the rents in public housing don't have to go up because something got built nearby. Furthermore Halifax it not like San Francisco where there are fancy stores selling peaches for $15. Many new businesses in the North End are targeted at the middle class and are broadly affordable, plus they provide employment.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

The community carrot was pretty over-hyped, but one of the reasons I think it didn’t do well is because it didn’t offer everything needed from a grocery store.

Over-hyped? Catering only to a tiny segment? Was it an initiative of the HCC perchance?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think a No Frills would also be more unique within a larger area on the peninsula. That would give it a distinct advantage compared so simply setting up Sobeys location #3 or whatever it would be.

You would need a huge turnover by a No Frills to be able to make a profit if they located on virtually any decent retail location on the peninsula these days. Rents are now simply too high for their low-margin business model. That's why they are in the low-rent locations they occupy here at present. I don't know the size of their existing stores but I would guess 30,000 to 40,000 sq ft. There just aren't many such sites available at the rents they require and a new build would likely not be viable either for that reason.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

You would need a huge turnover by a No Frills to be able to make a profit if they located on virtually any decent retail location on the peninsula these days. Rents are now simply too high for their low-margin business model. That's why they are in the low-rent locations they occupy here at present. I don't know the size of their existing stores but I would guess 30,000 to 40,000 sq ft. There just aren't many such sites available at the rents they require and a new build would likely not be viable either for that reason.

I’m not sure that’s necessarily the case. There are No Frills all over Toronto, including in neighbourhoods that likely have higher commercial rents than most of Halifax—Bloor West Village, the Junction, Leslieville, etc. But those areas aren’t right in the thick of things, where there’d be huge customer turnover. They’re mostly just neighbourhood stores in medium-density areas, as they would be here.

The only problem would be finding the right location, since the peninsula is already well-served. If you include the Sobeys at HSC and Pete’s downtown, there are seven full-sized grocery stores on the peninsula.

The most grocery-deprived area problem probably is the north end of downtown or the bottom of Gottingen. (Technically parts of the West End would be farther from a store, but those are areas where just about everyone would have car access, so it doesn't really matter.) An urban-format No Frills-type store, incorporated in a new development around the Staples there, or as part of the Cogswell redevelopment, would probably work well. Though I would imagine the Cogswell re-do would attract something more up-market.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Over-hyped? Catering only to a tiny segment? Was it an initiative of the HCC perchance?

Got me there...

[TrudeauSockPuppet427]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

Generally I would agree that it’s a pretty noble goal to focus on the ideas, not the traits that annoy us about other people. I think that if we’re creating a fictional personality for the sake of some laughs it’s crossing a line, and poisons the discussion on development. It’s not easy when the person you’re talking to clearly doesn’t believe in what they’re saying.

Although I would also agree that I should just not participate in the discussion with him if it bothers me.

And let's not ignore the fact that "personalities" are what leads to the pages-long interpersonal battles - and frequent complaints - on various threads every couple of weeks or so that barely touch on the topics in the threads.

But as usual, that sort of thing get glossed over. I've only even seen those making complaints about it get scolded by a mod - never the behaviours they're complaining about.

So I mostly stick to looking at pictures and occasionally popping up to complain about the most egregious offenses....only to be ignored again.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I’m not sure that’s necessarily the case. There are No Frills all over Toronto, including in neighbourhoods that likely have higher commercial rents than most of Halifax—Bloor West Village, the Junction, Leslieville, etc. But those areas aren’t right in the thick of things, where there’d be huge customer turnover. They’re mostly just neighbourhood stores in medium-density areas, as they would be here.

The only problem would be finding the right location, since the peninsula is already well-served. If you include the Sobeys at HSC and Pete’s downtown, there are seven full-sized grocery stores on the peninsula.

The most grocery-deprived area problem probably is the north end of downtown or the bottom of Gottingen. (Technically parts of the West End would be farther from a store, but those are areas where just about everyone would have car access, so it doesn't really matter.) An urban-format No Frills-type store, incorporated in a new development around the Staples there, or as part of the Cogswell redevelopment, would probably work well. Though I would imagine the Cogswell re-do would attract something more up-market.

Yes, they have become popular neighbourhood stores in some cities. Including as you say in neighbourhoods that aren't all that busy, but where rents might be higher than the North End.

Gottingen's just on the wrong side of this, with grocery stores close enough to serve the population but just a bit too far to be convenient, especially for pedestrians. If the geography were slightly different or it had been slightly more populated through the 70's and 80's it probably would have kept its Sobeys. But these days a lot of people are moving into this area so I think it's almost inevitable that it will get some kind of new grocery store eventually, particularly if you include Cogswell. Crombie's sites not including Cogswell have the capacity for thousands of new residential units. And the development in this thread could bring in 1,000 people.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

If the geography were slightly different or it had been slightly more populated through the 70's and 80's it probably would have kept its Sobeys.

If memory serves the Gottingen St Sobeys closed just prior to the then-new Scotia Square Sobeys opening. Their Gottingen store was very old and rather shabby too so perhaps the thinking was that the business would just move to the new shiny store in SS. That of course never happened and the SS store did not last very long.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

If memory serves the Gottingen St Sobeys closed just prior to the then-new Scotia Square Sobeys opening. Their Gottingen store was very old and rather shabby too so perhaps the thinking was that the business would just move to the new shiny store in SS. That of course never happened and the SS store did not last very long.

Scotia Square and environs didn't have a lot of residents either. I think it was pretty much doomed. There is that row of apartments along Brunswick but it's not enough of a local market. Add in a dozen developments along the lines of the tower going up on Cogswell and that calculus changes.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

If memory serves the Gottingen St Sobeys closed just prior to the then-new Scotia Square Sobeys opening. Their Gottingen store was very old and rather shabby too so perhaps the thinking was that the business would just move to the new shiny store in SS. That of course never happened and the SS store did not last very long.

Not so sure about that sequence. Didn't the Gottingen Street store last into the 80s? The Scotia Square store would've opened around 69 or 70.

I could be wrong, but that's what the rusty old memory is telling me. Will try to do some digging to confirm.

[The Crow Whisperer]

Check out the video from HRM's latest kangaroo court public hearing if you want to waste 2 hours. Jono was on the receiving end of what the Japanese call "Gai-ats" : outside pressure.

The community treat Jono like what the Japanese call gaijin, an outsider, despite him being born and raised in Halifax.

The hostility against Jono was unbelievable, they're such naysayers, the grandstanding was unbelievable, they're bullies, they'll throw anything at him
they can use to torpedo this development. And no, Jono does not really have permission to build as-of-right 4 stories HR-1 because the neighbors don't even want HR1, yes legally Jono has HR1 but practically no he does not, it's so political, so he might as well go for 100 stories because the handcuffing and dictating and lawfare from
the special interest groups is going to keep the project bogged down in a quagmire regardless.

Jono is so friendly, patient, polite, conciliatory, willing to work with anybody, talk to anybody, even hostile 3rd parties. He is bending over backwards to accommodate and appease and goes out of his way, he is offering every olive branch despite repeatedly being slapped away. He talks to the baptist church, the round church,
the anglican church, the blacks, the natives, the alphabet community, the young, the old, students, everybody.

He spent a fortune studying how to arrange the towers so they don't cast a shadow on the silly urban farm. Move to the country if you want to operate a commercial farm.

Jono's partnership with One North End proves that developers are being forced into 3rd party agreements with hostile special interest groups. Incidentally the guy from ONE kept calling it "Juno" Developments, but I digress.

Developers pay property tax, capital gains tax, development fees, business tax, personal income tax, wealth tax, financial transaction tax, sales tax, duties, customs, and the hidden tax of inflation. But it's never enough because developers are to be forced into vague "community benefit agreements" which is left deliberately vague and ill-defined, it is a mafiya-like shake down. Developers must pay huge cash lump sums to the city on top of development permits, fees AND taxes, used to buy votes from
special interests. Also developers are forced to enter into contracts with hostile third parties who hate them, they are forced to give away 30 percent of their property for less than what it costs to build and maintain them, and they have to fund free horse and buggie rides, and a pony, NO, TWO ponies, and and and the list goes on and on and on.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by The Crow Whisperer

And no, Jono does not really have permission to build as-of-right 4 stories HR-1 because the neighbors don't even want HR1, yes legally Jono has HR1 but practically no he does not, it's so political, so he might as well go for 100 stories because the handcuffing and dictating and lawfare from
the special interest groups is going to keep the project bogged down in a quagmire regardless.

Jono is so friendly, patient, polite, conciliatory, willing to work with anybody, talk to anybody, even hostile 3rd parties. He is bending over backwards to accommodate and appease and goes out of his way, he is offering every olive branch despite repeatedly being slapped away. He talks to the baptist church, the round church,
the anglican church, the blacks, the natives, the alphabet community, the young, the old, students, everybody.

He spent a fortune studying how to arrange the towers so they don't cast a shadow on the silly urban farm. Move to the country if you want to operate a commercial farm.

Jono's partnership with One North End proves that developers are being forced into 3rd party agreements with hostile special interest groups. Incidentally the guy from ONE kept calling it "Juno" Developments, but I digress.

Developers pay property tax, capital gains tax, development fees, business tax, personal income tax, wealth tax, financial transaction tax, sales tax, duties, customs, and the hidden tax of inflation. But it's never enough because developers are to be forced into vague "community benefit agreements" which is left deliberately vague and ill-defined, it is a mafiya-like shake down. Developers must pay huge cash lump sums to the city on top of development permits, fees AND taxes, used to buy votes from
special interests. Also developers are forced to enter into contracts with hostile third parties who hate them, they are forced to give away 30 percent of their property for less than what it costs to build and maintain them, and they have to fund free horse and buggie rides, and a pony, NO, TWO ponies, and and and the list goes on and on and on.

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. He can build 4 storeys tomorrow by-right. There is no consultation requirement, and no required public engagement process. Just him and a permit application. Its not a discretionary process. And again, he is engaging community because he wants to amend the regulations. That's the only reason he's engaging with the community.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by The Crow Whisperer

Check out the video from HRM's latest kangaroo court public hearing if you want to waste 2 hours. Jono was on the receiving end of what the Japanese call "Gai-ats" : outside pressure.

The community treat Jono like what the Japanese call gaijin, an outsider, despite him being born and raised in Halifax.

The hostility against Jono was unbelievable, they're such naysayers, the grandstanding was unbelievable, they're bullies, they'll throw anything at him
they can use to torpedo this development. And no, Jono does not really have permission to build as-of-right 4 stories HR-1 because the neighbors don't even want HR1, yes legally Jono has HR1 but practically no he does not, it's so political, so he might as well go for 100 stories because the handcuffing and dictating and lawfare from
the special interest groups is going to keep the project bogged down in a quagmire regardless.

Jono is so friendly, patient, polite, conciliatory, willing to work with anybody, talk to anybody, even hostile 3rd parties. He is bending over backwards to accommodate and appease and goes out of his way, he is offering every olive branch despite repeatedly being slapped away. He talks to the baptist church, the round church,
the anglican church, the blacks, the natives, the alphabet community, the young, the old, students, everybody.

He spent a fortune studying how to arrange the towers so they don't cast a shadow on the silly urban farm. Move to the country if you want to operate a commercial farm.

Jono's partnership with One North End proves that developers are being forced into 3rd party agreements with hostile special interest groups. Incidentally the guy from ONE kept calling it "Juno" Developments, but I digress.

Developers pay property tax, capital gains tax, development fees, business tax, personal income tax, wealth tax, financial transaction tax, sales tax, duties, customs, and the hidden tax of inflation. But it's never enough because developers are to be forced into vague "community benefit agreements" which is left deliberately vague and ill-defined, it is a mafiya-like shake down. Developers must pay huge cash lump sums to the city on top of development permits, fees AND taxes, used to buy votes from
special interests. Also developers are forced to enter into contracts with hostile third parties who hate them, they are forced to give away 30 percent of their property for less than what it costs to build and maintain them, and they have to fund free horse and buggie rides, and a pony, NO, TWO ponies, and and and the list goes on and on and on.

This is starting to sound like propaganda. I'm guessing that you work for him?

[someone123]

Unrelated posts about the forum in general and moderation etc. have been moved here: https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=245324

Please limit future posting in here to topics that are at least tangentially related to the St. Pat's-Alexandra development. I welcome discussion about the forum in this other linked thread (what should or shouldn't be allowed in different kinds of threads, what threads should or shouldn't be created) but negative posts should not be directed at other forumers.

[Colin May]

Jono bought the school on 3.85 acres for $3.6 million. Don't know what his legal fees were when he won the face off with HRM.
And St Pats High school on 3.3 acres sold for $37.6 million in February 2020

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Jono bought the school on 3.85 acres for $3.6 million. Don't know what his legal fees were when he won the face off with HRM.
And St Pats High school on 3.3 acres sold for $37.6 million in February 2020

But nobody seems to be arguing that Jono "cheated" the city out of money. My impression is that the city agreed to sell at that price, many years ago, or at least that was the eventual legal outcome. The market price is much higher now. The assessment has probably gone up and Jono presumably has to pay property taxes on that.

If Jono bought at $3.6M and the market value went down to $300,000 would there be people arguing for ad hoc corporate welfare to offset this loss?

I get the impression that some people are offended at the prospect of a developer making profit or feel that this creates a social debt over and above all the rules and taxes the developers have to abide by. I don't think that makes much sense.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

I get the impression that some people are offended at the prospect of a developer making profit or feel that this creates a social debt over and above all the rules and taxes the developers have to abide by. I don't think that makes much sense.

One could argue that the interest groups involved are trying to collect on that social debt. I agree with you that it is somewhat absurd. This area will not be able to command luxe prices for a long time if ever and so the developer will build to what the market will support. If the interest groups are truly concerned with the good of the area and not trying to better their own narrow interests, they would be well-advised to support him and his plans to the broader good. Of course one could also argue that those special interests benefit by keeping the area slummy and run-down.

[The Crow Whisperer]

they are literally demanding free hay rides.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by The Crow Whisperer

they are literally demanding free hay rides.

Just because one participant in a public meeting suggested that as an idea and it got captured in the overall body of public feedback doesn't mean it's a widely-held demand. Public engagement often solicits a very wide range of comments; focusing on the outliers to discredit things is a bit of a straw man argument.

[Keith P.]

Just like Bloomfield, there is news today on this, and none of it is good:

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/the-proj...hold-1.6405394

So the loud-mouthed locals want welfare housing as long as it is not more than 4-6 storeys. Certainly they do not want anything "nice" that might rent for something close to what other new developments around there are seeing. And of course they have no idea what the things they want actually cost or whether it makes sense for anyone to try doing it. HRM is far from blameless here too, with the absurd size/height restrictions they have placed arbitrarily on the site. Maybe Joe M. should just put a "For Sale: As-Is/Where-Is $20 million OBO" sign on the lot and walk away.