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  #61  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I didn't make that claim. I claimed that LA doesn't have Sao Paul-level nightlife, and I think it's, in part, bc LA (and the West Coast in general) is way more health/fitness/outdoors oriented than other parts of the world. Clubbing till dawn doesn't go well with hiking at dawn, or industries where your appearance matters.
Los Angeles has a "clubbing until dawn" scene and a "hiking at dawn" scene as well, because the population here is sufficiently large and diverse to maintain a critical mass for both.
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  #62  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 11:00 AM
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It's not that the US regulates when a person can consume alcohol; it only regulates when it can be bought and sold. In California, alcohol sales are prohibited past 2am but can be bought/sold again at 6am.
But why? What difference it makes if it’s sold 2, 3 or 7am? It seems an anachronism. And 24/7 supermarkets? Do they face the prohibition as well?
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  #63  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 11:41 AM
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But why? What difference it makes if it’s sold 2, 3 or 7am? It seems an anachronism. And 24/7 supermarkets? Do they face the prohibition as well?
Because some of the early morning bars in America get a bit, uh, punchy and shooty the later in the night it gets.

https://www.dailyherald.com/entlife/...s-for-two-bars

Maybe, it’s the case that the limited licenses concentrate the most violent drunks together, but that’s the reason they are controversial in the U.S.

Also drunk driving.
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  #64  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 12:46 PM
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Because some of the early morning bars in America get a bit, uh, punchy and shooty the later in the night it gets.

https://www.dailyherald.com/entlife/...s-for-two-bars

Maybe, it’s the case that the limited licenses concentrate the most violent drunks together, but that’s the reason they are controversial in the U.S.

Also drunk driving.
Not that (straight) men are very peaceful in Brazil, but I guess things are way worse in the US and northern Europe. Apparently they have this "tradition" of fighting on clubs.
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  #65  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 1:34 PM
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Not that (straight) men are very peaceful in Brazil, but I guess things are way worse in the US and northern Europe. Apparently they have this "tradition" of fighting on clubs.
Yeah, ultimately, most U.S. cities, big and small, are leery about late night/early morning bars because they have to pay officers to babysit those locations, because they are otherwise guaranteed to attract gun toting morons.

The violence is just so disproportionate compared to regular bars and restaurants that most municipalities just don’t want to deal them.


Quote:
NEW YORK (PIX11) — A man shot four men during a dispute that spilled out of an upper Manhattan bar on Monday and then was himself shot by a police sergeant, authorities said.

The shooting happened at around 4 a.m. outside the 11:11 Restaurant and Lounge in the Inwood neighborhood, police said.
https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-new...-shooting/amp/

Quote:
CHICAGO (CBS) -- Chicago Police have shut down the Hush nightclub in River North after a shooting outside the venue in which one person was killed and three were injured.

CBS 2's Tara Molina reported that police on Tuesday ordered a summary closure of Hush, at 311 W. Chicago Ave. in the wake of the shooting early Sunday morning.

The chain of events that led to the shooting erupted at 2:10 a.m. Sunday. A group had been thrown out of Hush – and they started fighting.

A man pulled out a gun and started shooting. An armed security guard pulled out his gun shot back
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/chicago/...club-shooting/

Quote:
The Lincoln Police Department is investigating a shooting that left three people injured early Saturday morning outside a bar on O Street.

The shooting occurred at 2:38 a.m. in the 1100 block of O Street. Officers were on scene within a minute after hearing gunshots and administered aid to the victims, according to LPD's Twitter.
https://journalstar.com/news/local/3...53049b799.html

Quote:
MANHATTAN, Kan. (KWCH) - Update: The Manhattan Mercury has confirmed the identity of a K-State football player wounded in a Sunday shooting in Aggieville.

The Mercury reports 24-year-old Reed Godinet was shot during an incident that occurred in Tate’s Bar just before 1:30 a.m. Godinet is a senior defensive end for the Wildcats. He graduated with his bachelor’s degree in communication studies last week.
https://www.kwch.com/2021/12/13/shoo...outputType=amp
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  #66  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 3:16 PM
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But why? What difference it makes if it’s sold 2, 3 or 7am? It seems an anachronism. And 24/7 supermarkets? Do they face the prohibition as well?
24/7 supermarkets/liquor stores---Yes, they're also not allowed to sell alcohol between 2am-6am.

I agree it is an anachronism, but the US is full of anachronisms... non-use of the metric system, the electoral college... but that's no excuse of course. I guess with the US being a relatively "new" nation, Americans hang on to things that are seen as "traditional."
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  #67  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 3:57 PM
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^ and even more importantly, beyond it just being "traditional", I don't see where the political will to get rid of "last call" and switch to 24-hour liquor service would even come from.

The percentage of the voting public that actually gives a shit about this issue is vanishingly small. No politician is going to make it a significant policy position to garner votes.

When there are serious economic interests involved, like casinos, the politicians will actually make specific exceptions because $$$, but generally speaking, nowhere close to enough people really care about whether bars have to close at 2:00am or 4:00am or whenever. It just doesn't affect that many people in the grand scheme of things.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Nov 23, 2022 at 4:24 PM.
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  #68  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 4:29 PM
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Not that (straight) men are very peaceful in Brazil, but I guess things are way worse in the US and northern Europe. Apparently they have this "tradition" of fighting on clubs.
It really has little to do with violence or even traffic accidents, other than that being an excuse for the government not to give up the power. After prohibition of alcohol consumption was repealed by the U.S. government, the power of regulating alcohol sales was turned over to the individual states. All states have been slow to let go of that power.
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  #69  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 4:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
^ and even more importantly, beyond it just being "traditional", I don't see where the political will to get rid of "last call" and switch to 24-hour liquor service would even come from.

The percentage of the voting public that actually gives a shit about this issue is vanishingly small. No politician is going to make it a significant policy position to garner votes.

When there are serious economic interests involved, like casinos, the politicians will actually make specific exceptions because $$$, but generally speaking, nowhere close to enough people really care about whether bars have to close at 2:00am or 4:00am or whenever. It just doesn't affect that many people in the grand scheme of things.
But if I'm in a nightclub at 2:30 a.m. in Baltimore or Cleveland or Philadelphia or Atlanta I cannot buy a drink? That's messed up.
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  #70  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 4:44 PM
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But if I'm in a nightclub at 2:30 a.m. in Baltimore or Cleveland or Philadelphia or Atlanta I cannot buy a drink? That's messed up.
Messed up or not, the vast majority of people simply don't care about the issue.

That's why these laws rarely ever change, unless there is casino money involved.
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  #71  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 5:03 PM
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Messed up or not, the vast majority of people simply don't care about the issue.

That's why these laws rarely ever change, unless there is casino money involved.
When it comes to nightlife, the US and the kinds of Spain or Brazil are worlds apart. 6 million people metro areas with no nightclubs and people don't even bother. Spaniards are going out for dinner when Americans are leaving their bars.
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  #72  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 5:08 PM
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When it comes to nightlife, the US and the kinds of Spain or Brazil are worlds apart. 6 million people metro areas with no nightclubs and people don't even bother. Spaniards are going out for dinner when Americans are leaving their bars.
This is just a cultural difference. Americans (and the Anglosphere) tend to be more home-centric, but the Spaniards are on the other extreme. Spain is weird, with 4-yos going to bed at 2 AM on a schoolnight bc parents want to chat and drink. Many Latin Americans are similar, but not as extreme. My wife remembers staying up virtually all night, unsupervised, while her parents drank and socialized. That was normal.

In the U.S., parents are like militants, putting their kids to bed at 8 PM and sacrificing everything till they leave the nest. Typically only childless or college-age people would consider clubbing or late nights.
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  #73  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 5:20 PM
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This is just a cultural difference. Americans (and the Anglosphere) tend to be more home-centric, but the Spaniards are on the other extreme. Spain is weird, with 4-yos going to bed at 2 AM on a schoolnight bc parents want to chat and drink. Many Latin Americans are similar, but not as extreme. My wife remembers staying up virtually all night, unsupervised, while her parents drank and socialized. That was normal.

In the U.S., parents are like militants, putting their kids to bed at 8 PM and sacrificing everything till they leave the nest. Typically only childless or college-age people would consider clubbing or late nights.
Yes, Spain is extreme even for Mediterranean-sphere standards.

I experienced this in the first hand when I stayed in South Africa in an internship program. The host family went to bed 21:00 sharp, every day. On summer. I found it so odd and robotic. I didn’t care much about nightlife back then, but I remember it was poor, although they didn’t have prohibition.
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  #74  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 5:25 PM
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Anglos, or at least a stubborn and persistent subset thereof, drink in a certain way that explains both the laws and the widespread cultural assumptions that make the laws seem reasonable to us.
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  #75  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 6:06 PM
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It really has little to do with violence or even traffic accidents, other than that being an excuse for the government not to give up the power. After prohibition of alcohol consumption was repealed by the U.S. government, the power of regulating alcohol sales was turned over to the individual states. All states have been slow to let go of that power.
Sorry, but in the modern day when a U.S. city tries to revoke or restrict early morning alcohol sales, they specifically mention violence as the problem and can back it up with incident reports.

Like it’s pretty obvious that if the vast majority of a populace don’t prefer staying out late, and a subset of the ones who do tend to commit violence at bars, then political support for the bars vanishes. It’s that simple.


Louisville last year for example

Quote:
Night owls on the bar scene in Louisville may need to pick up a new hobby through the end of 2021.

Metro Councilwoman Cassie Chambers Armstrong on Monday filed an ordinance that would move up "last call" for alcohol sales in the city from 4 a.m. to 2 a.m.

Armstrong represents Louisville's 8th District, which includes the popular Bardstown Road bar strip that's home to several popular establishments that stay open well past 2 a.m.

Not every bar has been an issue, she said, but there are a few "bad actors" that are not taking basic safety measures such as screening patrons for guns. That is fostering an unsafe environment and forcing LMPD to send too many officers into the Highlands on weekends, she added.

Three homicides along Bardstown Road have been reported in recent months, including an unsolved fatal shooting in Nowhere Bar's parking lot in June. Armstrong said her ordinance – "a small, temporary measure" – has received support from several nearby neighborhood associations
https://www.courier-journal.com/stor...ce/8240003002/
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  #76  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 6:20 PM
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^ lonely young men in the middle of the night + black-out drinking + unlimited guns = what could possibly go wrong?
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  #77  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 6:47 PM
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Originally Posted by galleyfox View Post
Sorry, but in the modern day when a U.S. city tries to revoke or restrict early morning alcohol sales, they specifically mention violence as the problem and can back it up with incident reports.

Like it’s pretty obvious that if the vast majority of a populace don’t prefer staying out late, and a subset of the ones who do tend to commit violence at bars, then political support for the bars vanishes. It’s that simple.
Yes, it's a political argument, but how does changing the time lessen the chance for violence? The logical conclusion of that would be to eliminate alcohol sales altogether to get rid of violence.

OTOH, someone could argue that having hard cutoff times could actually be increasing the chance of violence by pushing a bunch of people with alcohol in their system into the streets at exactly the same time every night.
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  #78  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 6:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I didn't make that claim. I claimed that LA doesn't have Sao Paul-level nightlife, and I think it's, in part, bc LA (and the West Coast in general) is way more health/fitness/outdoors oriented than other parts of the world. Clubbing till dawn doesn't go well with hiking at dawn, or industries where your appearance matters.
Nightlife doesn't have to mean clubbing, it could mean just hanging out, at night.
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  #79  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 6:53 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Yes, it's a political argument, but how does changing the time lessen the chance for violence? The logical conclusion of that would be to eliminate alcohol sales altogether to get rid of violence.

OTOH, someone could argue that having hard cutoff times could actually be increasing the chance of violence by pushing a bunch of people with alcohol in their system into the streets at exactly the same time every night.
That's a valid point. With longer hours, people leave in different time. As I got older, I usually leave by 2:30. Most people leave around 4:30-5:00 and others stay till 6:00-7:00.
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  #80  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2022, 7:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
Messed up or not, the vast majority of people simply don't care about the issue.
This. The vast majority of people can barely make it to 2AM let alone 4 or 6. I can't remember the last time I stayed past midnight.
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