HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #181  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2022, 5:57 PM
JManc's Avatar
JManc JManc is online now
Dryer lint inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Houston/ SF Bay Area
Posts: 37,790
Toronto is Canada's New York so I don't expect other major US cities to grow and develop on that level. Some are growing in population at same levels but not transforming their urban fabric like Toronto.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #182  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2022, 6:13 PM
Yuri's Avatar
Yuri Yuri is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,478
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
chicago growing like toronto is not going to happen anytime soon.

not only does toronto get like 10x more immigrants, it's also a metro area that actually enacts measures to curtail sprawl and "force" denser development.

if free-for-all chicagoland had the population growth of metro toronto over the past 5 decades or so, the sprawl would probably stretch west to the fucking mississippi river by now .


minneapolis is a much more realistic target to shoot for.

but again, without toronto-style controls in place, more people in chicagoland will just mean more mind-numbing sprawl (a big problem in the twin cities as well).
I decided to check it again, and actually Minneapolis is not doing much worse than Toronto:

------------------ 2020/2021 ------- 2010/2011 ------- 2000/2001 ------- 1990/1991
Toronto ------------ 7.568.308 ---- 6.801.391 ---- 5.758.940 ---- 4.827.910 ---- 11,30% ---- 18,10% ---- 19,30%
Minneapolis -------- 3.635.128 ---- 3.279.833 ---- 2.968.806 ---- 2.538.834 ---- 10,83% ---- 10,48% ---- 16,94%

Even though Chicago might knock Milwaukee and Rockford doors with such explosive growth, we would certainly see lots of action in the city proper, and even in NW IN and So Cook.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Toronto is Canada's New York so I don't expect other major US cities to grow and develop on that level. Some are growing in population at same levels but not transforming their urban fabric like Toronto.
Dallas and Houston manage to grow much faster than Toronto. It would be nice if Chicago could capture some of that growth, after all, Chicago and Dallas have always performed kinda similar economic roles.
__________________
London - São Paulo - Rio de Janeiro - Londrina - Frankfurt
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #183  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2022, 6:27 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
It would be nice if Chicago could capture some of that growth, after all, Chicago and Dallas have always performed kinda similar economic roles.
not if we don't first find a way to get some real-deal sprawl controls in place.

chicagoland wouldn't be much improved by surrounding it with yet another development ring of sprawl-tacular Mckinney's and Frisco's.


growth matters.

but the kind of growth matters more, IMO
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Nov 29, 2022 at 6:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #184  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2022, 6:53 PM
Yuri's Avatar
Yuri Yuri is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,478
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
not if we don't first find a way to get some real-deal sprawl controls in place.

chicagoland wouldn't be much improved by surrounding it with yet another development ring of Mckinney's and Frisco's.


growth matters.

but the kind of growth matters more, IMO
I'm probably the most urbanite forumer around here. I don't even know how to drive anymore, so I'm very pro-density. But if there will be growth with sprawl, I rather have it in Chicago than in Dallas. Eventually those exurbs will provide young people to move to the city.
__________________
London - São Paulo - Rio de Janeiro - Londrina - Frankfurt
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #185  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2022, 8:22 PM
galleyfox galleyfox is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
I'm probably the most urbanite forumer around here. I don't even know how to drive anymore, so I'm very pro-density. But if there will be growth with sprawl, I rather have it in Chicago than in Dallas. Eventually those exurbs will provide young people to move to the city.
The population of suburban children in Chicagoland actually moving to the city right now is so low that I have trouble believing that the city would see much benefit.

Honestly, there’s probably more Michiganders living on the North side.

It would most likely just be a larger population voting for more and wider highways.


Reply With Quote
     
     
  #186  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2022, 8:41 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by galleyfox View Post
The population of suburban children in Chicagoland actually moving to the city right now is so low that I have trouble believing that the city would see much benefit.

Honestly, there’s probably more Michiganders living on the North side.
more anecdotal story time:


story #1: of the 23 first cousins in my generation on the two sides of my family, 20 of us were born and raised in suburban chicago (the other 3 were out of state).

today, only myself and one other cousin live within city limits.

the other 18 break down like this:

7 still in suburban chicago
2 in Tampa Bay
1 in Elkhart, IN
1 in NYC
1 in LA
1 in Phoenix
1 in SLC
1 in Vancouver
1 in London (for now anyway, she's still young, single, and doing her globe-trotting thing)
2 have sadly passed away




story #2: of the 13 other dads on my block on the northside of chicago that i know well, only 2 of us were born and raised in chicagoland.

the other 11 break down like this:

3 born in michigan
1 born in ohio
1 born in connecticut
1 born in vermont
1 born in maryland
1 born in oregon
1 born in texas
1 born in poland
1 born in serbia



the moral of these stories: people tend to move all over the fucking place.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Nov 29, 2022 at 9:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #187  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2022, 9:36 PM
Rail Claimore's Avatar
Rail Claimore Rail Claimore is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Dallas
Posts: 6,230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
for chicagoland, not including the MASSIVE initial sprawl explosion in the immediate post-wat period, i think "suburbia" peaked in the 90s, at least going by the numbers.

yeah, there was still solid growth in the burbs in the '00s, but you could also sense that change was in the air with stalled-out housing developments in the exurbs starting to become more noticeable and some of the surplus malls began closing. and then, of course, after the forclousre crisis, the bottom truly fell out for chicago suburbia in the 2010s.
I don't disagree with that assessment, maybe it's more appropriate to say the early and mid 2000's, before the market crash, was sort of the swan song of suburban growth as we traditionally think of it. At least it marked the end of the era that started in about 1984, when interest rates started getting lower and boomers started buying modern suburban houses that are a bit different from the initial post-war houses that their parents bought and that they (boomers) grew up in.
__________________
So am I supposed to sign something here?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #188  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2022, 9:40 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by galleyfox View Post
The population of suburban children in Chicagoland actually moving to the city right now is so low that I have trouble believing that the city would see much benefit.

Honestly, there’s probably more Michiganders living on the North side.

It would most likely just be a larger population voting for more and wider highways.
Yeah, cities grow by attracting newcomers to the region. To focus on convincing suburbanites to repopulate cities is a fool's errand.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #189  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2022, 10:13 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rail Claimore View Post
I don't disagree with that assessment, maybe it's more appropriate to say the early and mid 2000's, before the market crash, was sort of the swan song of suburban growth as we traditionally think of it.
yeah, there was certainly a big downshift in chicagoland that began in the '00s, and then dropped like a hammer in '10s.

but i don't think that necessarily applies to fast growth places like dallas.


2010 - 2020 population growth:

dallas city proper: +106,563

fort worth city proper: +177,709

DFW outside the cities: +926,901


that +900K figure is a pretty damn big meatball.

i know those kinds of growth numbers wet the panties of many SSPers, but i'm less enamored with growth for the sake of growth if it mostly means ripping up more prairie for yet another 500 sq. miles of subdivisions and power centers held within a matrix of 6-lane stroads.


quality of growth >>> quantity of growth


Seattle seems to be "growing right", at least better than most major fast-growth US metro areas.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Nov 30, 2022 at 4:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
End
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:50 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.