Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

^it looks better in person.

They need to work on developing some of the lands east of it towards the Downtown though.

That includes the old stadium site which has become a bit of a touchy political issue in Regina from what I gather... promises were made about what would go there, but nothing has materialized as yet. As such, there's a bit of a dead zone between the stadium/arena district and downtown itself.

I do agree that Mosaic Stadium looks very nice on the Regina skyline. It looms large.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I'm not a fan of the siding, tbh however, that is an impressive stadium. Night shot, well the entire bowl day or night, is worthy of the NFL.

The siding is to represent steel grain bins

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by esquire

That includes the old stadium site which has become a bit of a touchy political issue in Regina from what I gather... promises were made about what would go there, but nothing has materialized as yet. As such, there's a bit of a dead zone between the stadium/arena district and downtown itself.

It's too bad CP rail refused to totally move out of its downtown location. If they did then there was enough room to place the stadium there and then they could have built several pedways to cross the CP Mainline to downtown.

Oh well, maybe one day they'll get some sort of development to connect downtown with the stadium area.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

It's too bad CP rail refused to totally move out of its downtown location. If they did then there was enough room to place the stadium there and then they could have built several pedways to cross the CP Mainline to downtown.

Oh well, maybe one day they'll get some sort of development to connect downtown with the stadium area.

When you look at a map, you can see there is a bit of a dead zone between the stadium and downtown. It goes stadium... empty former Taylor Field area... somewhat underutilized former Superstore that has been repurposed into some sort of frankenmall... underutilized CPR land.

It's not ideal, but the good news is that it represents a huge opportunity for the City of Regina to do something special.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by esquire

The profile of the lesser games (in Canada that basically means Commonwealth and Pan Am) has fallen so much that I'm not sure they are really enough to get a new stadium built.

Other parts of the world still go big on these events, e.g. Asian Games, but Commonwealth 1978 was literally the last time a big stadium was built in Canada for one of those two. I guess some might say that Tim Hortons Field was a 2015 Pan Am Games project, but that really just seemed like a convenient cover... I imagine that stadium would have been built either way, and it played a minor role at best in the Pan Am Games.

If a place like Halifax landed the Commonwealth Games I'd expect them to put up a temporary 20,000 seat venue and call it a day. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I would not expect that... costs have increased while our national ambition, at least in that department, has declined.

That's the reason for saying taking on a whole lot of debt. I find the free spending 1980s (1970s being the precursor) and the repercussions in the 1900s have become somewhat blurred Everyone has been spending like drunken sailors and there hasn't been too much concern despite the overhanging cloud of debt. The 1970s basically had the unpaid bill for WW2. We still have the unpaid bill for WW2 plus the 1980s and, everything since 2000 till now.


The costs of the games have gone up exponentially since the 1970s with technology advancement, new events requiring different facilities and, largest chunk of all, security concerns.

An outdoor speed skating track is no longer acceptable like Commonwealth Stadium is in some ways beyond its legacy permanence and scale

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

If a place like Halifax landed the Commonwealth Games I'd expect them to put up a temporary 20,000 seat venue and call it a day. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I would not expect that... costs have increased while our national ambition, at least in that department, has declined.

It's true that governments often racked up debt in the past. Today we do as well but mostly for entitlements rather than for infrastructure development which is arguably worse. The federal government engaged in WW2 style spending during covid for temporary measures.

In Halifax the pendulum is too far in the other direction. It's growing likely at around 3% per year now and there's a big infrastructure deficit. Municipal revenues are in the $1B per year range but debt is in the $200M range. If you read the media stories you could be forgiven for thinking that the city is in financial trouble and is near bankruptcy (and every year there are "taxes went up" stories when the mill rate sometimes goes down). If the municipality simply borrowed the $ and built a barebones stadium for 20k on public land (which exists and is underused) the budget impact would be nil. Of course, there are higher priorities like transportation and housing.

(A few years back there was a "crisis" of not enough ice time available in local rinks. The city proposed a multi-pad rink for Bedford (pop. 20k or so) and the feds and province wouldn't chip in money. The municipality moved forward, spending $40M. So they will fritter away money, but only on many smaller projects, depending on politics.)

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

It's too bad CP rail refused to totally move out of its downtown location.

Did they offer to do it for a price? Or just respond flat out with a "no"?

They'd probably want money for the land and the costs of relocation as well. This is what happened during the stadium debate in Hamilton -- a CP yard on the western edge of the lower central city was floated as a potential site and it would have been a great one, but CP wanted something like $90 million and I think that was just for the land. That alone was too rich, never mind helping them move to a new location and the remediation costs which would have been massive (likely more than a century of train activity there)

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Did they offer to do it for a price? Or just respond flat out with a "no"?

They'd probably want money for the land and the costs of relocation as well. This is what happened during the stadium debate in Hamilton -- a CP yard on the western edge of the lower central city was floated as a potential site and it would have been a great one, but CP wanted something like $90 million and I think that was just for the land. That alone was too rich, never mind helping them move to a new location and the remediation costs which would have been massive (likely more than a century of train activity there)

Should have expropriated everything back in the 60s.


https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle...-decembre-2021

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Should have expropriated everything back in the 60s.

Steal from one of our railways? Perish the thought!
(back then the yard was part of the Toronto, Hamilton & Buffalo Railway, and the area was much more industrial)

Of course the city could have offered up part of its golf course just south of that yard. But that would have pissed-off dozens of golfers! It probably wouldn't have been allowed being so close to the Niagara Escarpment, but I don't believe many creative alternatives to the creative alternative of the freight yard were explored.

[Airboy]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

80s Commonwealth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn7_KppKOrs

I was trying to figure out why that photo looked wrong. It's a mirror image. Stadium Road should be on the bottom of that photo.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by someone123

(A few years back there was a "crisis" of not enough ice time available in local rinks. The city proposed a multi-pad rink for Bedford (pop. 20k or so) and the feds and province wouldn't chip in money. The municipality moved forward, spending $40M. So they will fritter away money, but only on many smaller projects, depending on politics.)

$40 million for a 4 pad is a much better investment for the community and actually has a chance of bringing in more money to a community than a 20k bare bones stadium would, I think.

[MonctonRad]

I thought this was funny:

BEST STADIUMS IN EVERY CANADIAN PROVINCE

• Video Link

Halifax stood out as a particular embarrassment (given the size and regional importance of this city). Charlottetown was laughable, but, what do you expect in a province of 5,000 sq km and with a total population of 170,000

[Coldrsx]

A new 'fan park' outside of Rogers Place in Downtown Edmonton - kinda cool.
---

December 2, 2022 (Edmonton, Alberta) – In partnership with ICE District and the Edmonton Oilers Community Foundation (EOCF), OEG Sports & Entertainment is excited to announce a new Fan Park that will expand EOCF community programming in the heart of the inner city and create a vibrant multi-use space to host a wide variety of public events, activities and live entertainment.

The new Fan Park will be located on the parcel of land immediately east of Rogers Place between 102 Street NW and 101 Street NW, which was the former site of the Baccarat Casino. Upon completion, the Fan Park will feature a large, fenced, programmable space, art installations and greenery—all designed to accommodate festivals, sports and a variety of other events that celebrate the uniqueness of Oil Country, its citizens and Downtown Edmonton. From youth hockey programing on portable outdoor rinks in the winter and ball hockey in the spring and summer, to public events, exhibitions and live entertainment for all Edmonton families to enjoy, the Fan Park will be a 12-months-a-year, programmable space that provides additional opportunities for outdoor activities in the downtown core.

The new park will also increase capacity and sustainability for winter festivals while incorporating urban design elements for winter activities in alignment with Edmonton’s Winter City Strategy.


https://icedistrict.com/news/new-fan...n-ice-district

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

$40 million for a 4 pad is a much better investment for the community and actually has a chance of bringing in more money to a community than a 20k bare bones stadium would, I think.

I am skeptical. What they built had almost no room for spectators and so likely only served a relatively small number of people for a specific purpose. The city has no good outdoor event space at all. The permanent Wanderers Grounds proposal will often be maxed with 10,000 spectators and the proposed budget is $15-20M. The 4-pad was built many years ago so the modern budget would probably be more like $50-60M.

The debate reminds me a lot of HSR where people jump to white elephant scenarios when the reality is that much of Canada has 19th century style service levels or no service at all, so modest improvements would be a huge upgrade. A stadium much nicer than anything NS has would at this point be a relatively minor municipal budget item.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by someone123

I am skeptical. What they built had almost no room for spectators and so likely only served a relatively small number of people for a specific purpose. The city has no good outdoor event space at all. The permanent Wanderers Grounds proposal will often be maxed with 10,000 spectators and the proposed budget is $15-20M. The 4-pad was built many years ago so the modern budget would probably be more like $50-60M.

The debate reminds me a lot of HSR where people jump to white elephant scenarios when the reality is that much of Canada has 19th century style service levels or no service at all, so modest improvements would be a huge upgrade. A stadium much nicer than anything NS has would at this point be a relatively minor municipal budget item.

On a somewhat related note, the emergence of the CPL makes a larger stadium a safer bet since it eliminates the scenario of "well if the CFL team fails then we are stuck with an empty white elephant". Even in the event that the CFL failed, a 20,000 seat stadium in Halifax would probably be well used by the CPL and other events like university football, the odd stadium concert, other sports like international soccer friendlies, rugby, etc.

[craner]

Originally Posted by Airboy

I was trying to figure out why that photo looked wrong. It's a mirror image. Stadium Road should be on the bottom of that photo.

Oh yeah - good eye.
You can the the “EE”s are mirrored.

[craner]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I thought this was funny:

BEST STADIUMS IN EVERY CANADIAN PROVINCE

• Video Link

Halifax stood out as a particular embarrassment (given the size and regional importance of this city). Charlottetown was laughable, but, what do you expect in a province of 5,000 sq km and with a total population of 170,000

Thanks for posting that Moncton - really enjoyed that.
I sure wish Calgary had a stadium.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

On a somewhat related note, the emergence of the CPL makes a larger stadium a safer bet since it eliminates the scenario of "well if the CFL team fails then we are stuck with an empty white elephant". Even in the event that the CFL failed, a 20,000 seat stadium in Halifax would probably be well used by the CPL and other events like university football, the odd stadium concert, other sports like international soccer friendlies, rugby, etc.

Even with no new sports team or CPL it would have lots of uses. There are the universities which have no stadium and there are events. There are often events with 20-30k attendees that are normally hosted at the Garrison Grounds or North Common where the grass gets wrecked and they haul porta potties in and out. The city should have built a proper event space years ago, and has a large bank of land suited exactly for that purpose that would be used for that purpose anywhere else.

Part of what is going on is that some people are extremely conservative about what happens on the commons, and there is a contingent that thinks of it in quasi-sacred abstract public good terms and wants it to be a giant dog walking area in perpetuity. But I think the Wanderers have been killing that attitude in favour of a more practical view and most of the remaining people with that outlook are getting up there in age now or aren't around anymore. Another factor is that various stadium promoters can become their own worst enemies by promoting overly complicated projects or not being clear about the requirements or compatibility. I'm not sure the city has ever made a comprehensive plan for their different spaces; it seems like they do things on an ad hoc basis.

I'm not sure if it appeared in this thread but the city is moving forward with the Forum renovations. Price tag $80M or so.

[EpicPonyTime]

Saskatoon held a public engagement meeting regarding Prairieland's proposed soccer stadium/new parking lot. Included a fancy new video showing off the proposal: https://streamable.com/7k3fpa

Prairieland is estimating 5K+ average attendance for its proposed CPL team, which qualifies as a lol. Only Halifax averaged that many people per game last season; next was Ottawa at a little over 4K per game.

Nice proposal, but I see no justification for taxpayer money to help fund it. If Saskatoon's going to fund any sports-related infrastructure, it should be the arena due to the much higher potential for a positive benefit to downtown. Prairieland already has a sweetheart arrangement with the City, anyway.

[craner]

^^As in the Halifax Forum ?
Is that place still around ?