HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #3021  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2022, 4:25 PM
Coldrsx's Avatar
Coldrsx Coldrsx is offline
Community Guy
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canmore, AB
Posts: 66,803
This is the 'acceptable' solution for a brand new, multi-billion dollar line? How pretty!


TheCat on SRC
https://edmonton.skyrisecities.com/f...24534/page-278
__________________
"The destructive effects of automobiles are much less a cause than a symptom of our incompetence at city building" - Jane Jacobs 1961ish

Wake me up when I can see skyscrapers
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3022  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2022, 4:29 PM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 23,999
That's pretty bad. They went with those fancy pillar designs, and at the end of the day, it will look far worse than the standard ones we see in Vancouver.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3023  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2022, 4:39 PM
Coldrsx's Avatar
Coldrsx Coldrsx is offline
Community Guy
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canmore, AB
Posts: 66,803
While these might rectify the situation to a reasonable degree, they most certainly do not look good and as a tax payer I am not pleased that this is what we will be seeing as a 'final product'.

*I should note that the collars on the right are the solution. The left is a separate part of this corrective process and not permanent.
__________________
"The destructive effects of automobiles are much less a cause than a symptom of our incompetence at city building" - Jane Jacobs 1961ish

Wake me up when I can see skyscrapers
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3024  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2022, 4:57 PM
TorontoDrew's Avatar
TorontoDrew TorontoDrew is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 9,788
At least the issue was discovered before something much worse could have happened.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3025  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2022, 5:34 PM
Luisito's Avatar
Luisito Luisito is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,792
Yeah that is pretty bad. I hope this doesn't have a negative effect on other places considering building elevated transit lines.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3026  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2022, 6:10 PM
Coldrsx's Avatar
Coldrsx Coldrsx is offline
Community Guy
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canmore, AB
Posts: 66,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorontoDrew View Post
At least the issue was discovered before something much worse could have happened.
Indeed, but the accouchement for these issues were four (4), FOUR days before opening (already two years behind)... how in the hell?
__________________
"The destructive effects of automobiles are much less a cause than a symptom of our incompetence at city building" - Jane Jacobs 1961ish

Wake me up when I can see skyscrapers
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3027  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2022, 7:45 PM
SFUVancouver's Avatar
SFUVancouver SFUVancouver is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 6,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
That's pretty bad. They went with those fancy pillar designs, and at the end of the day, it will look far worse than the standard ones we see in Vancouver.
Honestly, the standard SkyTrain monolithic columns are still fairly sculpted and offer pretty reasonable aesthetic appeal.
__________________
VANCOUVER | Beautiful, Multicultural | Canada's Pacific Metropolis

Last edited by SFUVancouver; Nov 29, 2022 at 12:26 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3028  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2022, 8:49 PM
Base Base is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFUVancouver View Post
Honestly, the standard SkyTrain monolithic columns are still fairly sculpted and offer pretty reasonable aesthetic appeal.
Those are nice. Absolutely nothing wrong there with how those look.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3029  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2022, 10:46 PM
Harrison's Avatar
Harrison Harrison is offline
A Better Place
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 2,790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Base View Post
Those are nice. Absolutely nothing wrong there with how those look.
Agreed, I would've been completely happy with those, but for some reason TransEd wanted to go with a new (faulty) design.
__________________
Bingo bango bongo
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3030  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2022, 11:11 PM
Metro-One's Avatar
Metro-One Metro-One is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Japan
Posts: 16,832
I think the age old saying, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!” applies to Edmonton’s need to have redesigned the standard column.
__________________
Bridging the Gap
Check out my Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/306346...h/29495547810/ and Youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCV0...lhxXFxuAey_q6Q
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3031  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2022, 1:04 AM
Luisito's Avatar
Luisito Luisito is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
Indeed, but the accouchement for these issues were four (4), FOUR days before opening (already two years behind)... how in the hell?


I hope people were fired. That is simply not acceptable. Not in a developed country.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3032  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2022, 7:25 AM
Nite's Avatar
Nite Nite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrison View Post
Agreed, I would've been completely happy with those, but for some reason TransEd wanted to go with a new (faulty) design.
This is one reason transit construction in China is so much cheaper than Canada.

Every system is not built as a novel projects to the city because everything is standardized and repeated in every city, no need to come up with a unique column design everytime you need a column in a new city.
China would have the same columns, trains, stations, lights, signals, etc in every city and save billions in not having to redesign everything from scratch.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3033  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2022, 8:13 AM
craner's Avatar
craner craner is offline
Go Tall or Go Home
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 6,755
I think Calgary basically copied Vancouver’s pillars for the elevated portion of the West Blue line.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3034  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2022, 3:18 PM
Coldrsx's Avatar
Coldrsx Coldrsx is offline
Community Guy
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canmore, AB
Posts: 66,803
^and why didn't we copy your last line out to the west is beyond me given how many similarities there are.
__________________
"The destructive effects of automobiles are much less a cause than a symptom of our incompetence at city building" - Jane Jacobs 1961ish

Wake me up when I can see skyscrapers
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3035  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 4:46 PM
acottawa acottawa is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 15,844
Inquiry of the Ottawa LRT project was quite scathing.



https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/unconscion...-rtg-1.6173542

The construction and maintenance of the Ottawa LRT project was plagued by persistent failures in leadership and saw "egregious violations of the public trust," a scathing new report has found.

The sweeping 637-page final report of the Ottawa LRT public inquiry, released Wednesday, found that both the city of Ottawa and Rideau Transit Group lost sight of the public interest during the project.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3036  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 8:01 PM
Greetingsfromcanada Greetingsfromcanada is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
The construction and maintenance of the Ottawa LRT project was plagued by persistent failures in leadership and saw "egregious violations of the public trust," a scathing new report has found.

The sweeping 637-page final report of the Ottawa LRT public inquiry, released Wednesday, found that both the city of Ottawa and Rideau Transit Group lost sight of the public interest during the project.
So it turns having city councilors pick rail transit modes based on their personal feelings about how cute trams look is a bad idea. Municipal politics is shameful and the lack of provincial oversight is appalling. Councilors and mayors routinely know less about transit than hobbyists with a youtube level of understanding.


Quote:
The city chose unproven technology for the trains that strained the limits of what an LRT system could do
https://twitter.com/robert_hiltz/sta...0uuj64k5Q&s=19


Canada needs to do what India does. They built 1 system in Delhi that works really well and the rest of country basically contracts them to consult and design all their systems. If Ontario talked to Translink, I'm sure they would have come up with something more reasonable
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3037  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2022, 1:57 PM
SFUVancouver's Avatar
SFUVancouver SFUVancouver is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 6,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greetingsfromcanada View Post
If Ontario talked to Translink, I'm sure they would have come up with something more reasonable
For all the flack Translink routinely gets in Metro Vancouver, they have been incredibly consistent in designing, delivering, and operating an efficient region-spanning rapid transit system.

For the last 35 years or so, every five to seven years a new SkyTrain line, small- but high-yield incremental extension, or a major system expansion that would otherwise constitute a new line, is approved and built with local, provincial, and federal joint funding. Examples of small- but high-yield extensions include the one-stop extension of the Expo Line when it crossed the Fraser River in the early 90s to link New Westminster with Surrey, followed by a further three-stop extension to downtown Surrey a couple years later.

Interoperability of every new line (excluding the Canada Line, discussed next), and the alignment of rapid transit and regional land use planning and development are the key achievements of the SkyTrain system, Metro Vancouver (and its predecessor), and Translink (and its predecessor). The SkyTrain Expo and Millennium Lines, plus their Evergreen Line, Broadway Subway, and Surrey-Langley extensions, all share the same trains and automated train control system. A standard elevated guideway system (columns and guideway segments) was developed in the late 90s for the Millennium Line and it has formed the basis of all subsequent elevated sections, including the Canada Line. Elevated stations for each line share a common 'kit of parts' to minimize cost and leverage experience from previous station designs, and simplify future expansion (all stations on the Expo and Millennium Lines, plus their extensions, have 80-meter platforms that can be extended to 100m).

The one time things went off the rails, so to speak, was when the Province interfered. That's how we ended up with the terms of reference for the procurement of the Canada Line (formerly known as the RAV Line - Richmond Airport Vancouver) that specifically did not require interoperability with the existing SkyTrain system and prohibited any consideration of benefits (operational or monetary) that could accrue to Translink were system interoperability to be proposed by a bidder. The result was the selection of a lower bid that proposed a new trainset, train control operating system, and physical constraints that prevent any future interoperability with the existing SkyTrain network. There is no way the line could even be retrofitted in the future to accept standard SkyTrain vehicles, so we're stuck with it.

The take-away from that fiasco, regardless of the Canada Line offering sufficient operating capabilities, plenty of future growth capacity, low construction cost, etc., is the peril a transit system faces when there is interference from interested but unqualified parties. The BC Liberal party didn't give a single shit about the permanent inefficiency and cost burden it would burden Translink with by not requiring interoperability of the new line with existing. The BC Liberals just wanted to get the thing built as fast as possible for as cheap as possible in time for the 2010 Winter Olympics and the train nerds could sort out the details later (and at their own expense).

Ontario (and basically all governments), that's the take-away. Don't do that. No. Bad governments. Let the experts define their project tender parameters. They know what they're doing.
__________________
VANCOUVER | Beautiful, Multicultural | Canada's Pacific Metropolis

Last edited by SFUVancouver; Dec 2, 2022 at 1:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3038  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 5:40 AM
Greetingsfromcanada Greetingsfromcanada is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFUVancouver View Post
.

The take-away from that fiasco, regardless of the Canada Line offering sufficient operating capabilities, plenty of future growth capacity, low construction cost, etc., is the peril a transit system faces when there is interference from interested but unqualified parties. The BC Liberal party didn't give a single shit about the permanent inefficiency and cost burden it would burden Translink with by not requiring interoperability of the new line with existing. The BC Liberals just wanted to get the thing built as fast as possible for as cheap as possible in time for the 2010 Winter Olympics and the train nerds could sort out the details later (and at their own expense).

Ontario (and basically all governments), that's the take-away. Don't do that. No. Bad governments. Let the experts define their project tender parameters. They know what they're doing.
The Canada line was a good project. The route inherently doesn't require interoperability and it was an extremely affordable $200 million per km, even tho a large portion is underground. The thing is skytrain vehicles arent very wide, they're much skinnier than typical metro rail trains. So canada line can carry more people with much short trains, which saves hundreds of millions to billions in underground station construction. The Canada line has a max capacity of 15,000 people per direction at current buildout ability. The Expo line 25,000. It's less, but the route isn't as long and there's way fewer people in the catchment zone

So what made the Canada Line a more successful project? I'd reckon it was the CDPQ being involved. They're building the REM and it's also an amazing value project. But more importantly, they walked away from a REM east proposal becuase Montreal kept demanding costly route changes and tunnels. The Montreal led blue line extension is now 70% of the REM East cost with like 1/4 of the lenght. The problem with P3 seems to be that some facilitators are too accommodating and willing to tell cities what they want to hear, leading to poorly thought decisions on trains, size of stations, routes, etc.

If cities want more say in design, they will need bigger engineering departments and more responsibility for the funding on their own end. The blend of institutional capacity and outsourcing just doesn't mix well in Ontario's current form. But that requires consistent building to make sure that newly gained project management knowledge and institutional capacity isn't lost within a couple year, which is probably translinks greatest advantage
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3039  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 7:11 AM
nname nname is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,657
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFUVancouver View Post
The one time things went off the rails, so to speak, was when the Province interfered. That's how we ended up with the terms of reference for the procurement of the Canada Line (formerly known as the RAV Line - Richmond Airport Vancouver) that specifically did not require interoperability with the existing SkyTrain system and prohibited any consideration of benefits (operational or monetary) that could accrue to Translink were system interoperability to be proposed by a bidder. The result was the selection of a lower bid that proposed a new trainset, train control operating system, and physical constraints that prevent any future interoperability with the existing SkyTrain network. There is no way the line could even be retrofitted in the future to accept standard SkyTrain vehicles, so we're stuck with it.
I think the first proposal from the Bombardier bid was actually cheaper, but...
- Any saving due to already having an existing system in the area was not allowed, so the process can be "fair"
- The proposal contains an open trench south of 49th Avenue, which was disliked by the city as it would destroy the "heritage" boulevard

So as a result, the bid was not selected.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3040  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 2:07 PM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 23,999
Quote:
Originally Posted by nname View Post
I think the first proposal from the Bombardier bid was actually cheaper, but...
- Any saving due to already having an existing system in the area was not allowed, so the process can be "fair"
- The proposal contains an open trench south of 49th Avenue, which was disliked by the city as it would destroy the "heritage" boulevard

So as a result, the bid was not selected.
Wow, they didn't take the cheapest bid? That's unheard of in Ottawa. Cheapest bid is basically the only criteria here.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:53 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.