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  #12081  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2022, 1:59 AM
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Logan Square sounds like a nice place
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Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
Even if you look at the median price, $600k is still very expensive for most folks. Yes, you can find properties cheaper than this, but you begin making major sacrifices on quality and location.
Interestingly, the median price of a house in Logan Square is $550,000 and I'd think the lower taxes in Denver would equalize the difference between $600,000 versus $550,000 in Logan Square.

The only comparable for new condos that I'm aware of is the really nice condos that Confluent built in Castle Rock where prices start in the upper $300's for 927 Sq Ft while two bedrooms (2 ba) start at 1250 Sq Ft and go up to 1700 Sq Ft. And yes, if I had a job in So Metro I'd love to live in Castle Rock; it's beautiful down there.

I wouldn't argue the point that Chicago in general has lower RE prices than Denver. You like Chicago. Whether others would like it as much is a different question.

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Originally Posted by H. H. Holmes View Post
My current partner and I don't want to be house poor/ living way out on the plains in a generic tract neighborhood, so we're considering smaller western cities (maybe the Springs, maybe down in New Mexico), but it's sad that we can't hope to ever buy a home in our current neighborhood - in this city we've built a nice life with some wonderful friends.
There are some very nice parts or places to live n New Mexico. My son's mom has good friends who live there that she visits from time to time. She likes the area a lot.
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  #12082  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2022, 2:51 AM
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You're correct
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
I still think that the difference between Phoenix and Denver is that Phoenix had more inventory cushion coming out of the Great Recession than Denver. Both metro's haven't kept up with population growth in terms of new starts (a trend that is national), Phoenix simply has more of a cushion before things get ugly. But, if current trends continue, Phoenix will also see a rapid appreciation increase as all those relocating Californians find the inventory isn't there.
Not only did Phx have a Big inventory of foreclosed homes but the politics was just stupid - awful.

Then Gov Ducey took office in Jan 2015 with a promise to cut taxes every year he was in office and he's kept his promise with one year to go. At that time I would say CO's tax structure was more business friendly than AZ's. I don't know if you retired with any military income but if you did you would not pay any tax on it down here in a nod to veterans. Starting this year there's a 3-year phase-in to a flat income tax of 2.25%.

When Gov Ducey took office he also promised to compete with Texas - which makes sense since AZ has more industry and while their tech footprint is growing where is that not the case? When they lured TSMC to Phoenix that was his just reward. They've also executed a cooperative agreement making it easier for TSMC suppliers from Taiwan to locate here.

With respect to housing costs, there's likely (now) little difference between nicer areas down here and Denver. The only real difference is the overall depth and breadth of existing housing stock is all.
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  #12083  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2022, 5:01 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
This sounds like one of those "free speech" confusions. Ofc, he's entitled to say whatever he wants just as I'm entitled to suggest how pointless his points are.

When you bring up 'boomers' for example you're talking about Single Family Home ownership and presumably in specific areas...

Anyway you have your view on affordability which is different from mine. I don't automatically think of singe family home ownership, let alone in high valued neighborhoods. I think more to basic housing affordability. Btw, nobody has posted about new affordable projects like I have. But it's not generally a sexy development example.
Yes everyone gets their free speech and I hope they do say whatever they want but please be honest. You're talking to someone who plats a decent amount of land, rezones a decent amount of land, builds a decent amount of housing (not single family), and also develops some commercial property. My experience, which is that of doing high level macro housing economics as well as the above mentioned items is what I rely on.

I define housing affordability based on % of income used for housing and I could care less if it's single family home, condominium, apartment, townhome, duplex, triplex, co-op, student housing, whatever. If housing costs more than 30%, it is unaffordable and households start to sacrifice things like healthy food (first), healthcare (second), school (third) - that's not a good thing. The cost of for sale single family housing (the traditional american metric) as a % of household income used to be a 2.5x 50 years ago. In Denver and the greater metro area, it's now generally above a 7x. In coastal cities, it gets 'progressively' worse (see what I did there?).

You can argue all you want that there is affordable housing because you're right, there is and it does exist, but most cities and even now many leisure areas are experiencing drastic housing shortages and related affordability issues. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

We can disagree as to the causes of why housing is no longer affordable, but you cannot come on here an truthfully assert that housing in Denver is generally affordable because it's not.

As to the causes, there is no one - it's a combination of decades of many things going wrong. The gallagher amendment incentivizing local governments to avoid residential zoning, tabor which has led to local government "fee creep", construction materials volatility, a pandemic, generational labor shortage, lack of wage growth, inadequate zoning leading to land scarcity (not just for housing), the list goes on.

As someone who does this every single day, my strong opinion is that a lack of adequate and appropriate zoning for a spectrum of housing options has led to land scarcity which has driven up land prices. This zoning conundrum has been created by and through drastically increased regulation, the gallagher influence, and by the nimby movement. Second up is the construction labor issue, which I don't see any fix to unless we stop telling every child they should go to college. The third issue, which I see as more transitory is the materials market volatility though that should stabilize and self-correct.

The last is politics. Some years back I proposed a mixed income, mixed housing project in a mountain community - several hundred units, both for rent and for sale , market rate and affordable, along with a significant creative component. It was rejected because the scale was "too large" even though nothing was above three stories and there was ample and abundant open space. Instead, the municipality tried to screw around with a couple dozen for sale units themselves with disastrous results and within 12 months, approved a massive high rise resort development that will offer second or third homes to wealthy folk (which is totally ok too).

My point is this, local politicians thought they knew the market better than someone willing to put it all on the line and this happens time and time again where the people in charge think they know better than the people who actually take the risk to make it happen - and it is a huge risk every time. This particular community now suffers from an acute housing shortage for people who actually live and work in their community and their business base is struggling as a result while their community becomes less vibrant because 75% of their housing is vacation homes which are dark 1/3 of the time.

Anyone can preach to me about housing affordability - I'm one of the lucky ones it doesn't remotely affect, but it breaks my heart what has transpired with regard to housing and how many damn people it negatively affects who deserve better. In this country, we used to think we could do better and now we're just ok with the status quo. We can solve housing, we just don't have the damn leadership to make it happen. End rant and editorial.
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  #12084  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2022, 5:18 PM
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The 2.5x or 3.0x housing vs. income multiplier was from a time of high interest rates. With today's rates you can go much higher.

The 30% figure also assumes a lot of other median conditions. On one hand, cheap college and healthcare. On the other hand, maybe 2.5 kids. Plus a car. If you're a single person or couple with no kids/debt/car, the 30% figure seems quaint.

Totally agree on land scarcity and the resulting prices and the need for more workers!
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  #12085  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2022, 5:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laniroj View Post
Anyone can preach to me about housing affordability - I'm one of the lucky ones it doesn't remotely affect, but it breaks my heart what has transpired with regard to housing and how many damn people it negatively affects who deserve better. In this country, we used to think we could do better and now we're just ok with the status quo. We can solve housing, we just don't have the damn leadership to make it happen. End rant and editorial.
This is the best statement I have read in a while. And it doesn't just apply to housing.

Anyone can preach to me about [ISSUE] - I'm one of the lucky ones it doesn't remotely affect, but it breaks my heart what has transpired with regard to [ISSUE] and how many damn people it negatively affects who deserve better. In this country, we used to think we could do better and now we're just ok with the status quo. We can solve [ISSUE], we just don't have the damn leadership to make it happen. End rant and editorial.

I think frequently that we have been far too comfortable for far too long. Absent a common foe. Whether an actual enemy, or a circumstance we all agree is an enemy. Which has given us no reason to cooperate as a society anymore. Which is why we do not have leadership. There are days when I think we need the Germans to get bored again and take Belgium or something, just so we Americans can get our shit together. (I jest.)
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  #12086  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2022, 5:59 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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We rallied around WWII, and a pandemic in 1919, but we're 0-1 on those in this era. Imagine today's level of government-sponsored public-opinion manipulation via internet (didn't Facebook determine that thousands of the most popular messages were from Russia alone?), writ large to divide the population about the war issue.
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  #12087  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2022, 6:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
I think frequently that we have been far too comfortable for far too long. Absent a common foe. Whether an actual enemy, or a circumstance we all agree is an enemy. Which has given us no reason to cooperate as a society anymore. Which is why we do not have leadership. There are days when I think we need the Germans to get bored again and take Belgium or something, just so we Americans can get our shit together. (I jest.)

We have a near peer adversary (they'll be a peer within the decade) that fills that role, but we buy all of our toilet paper and iPhones from them.
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  #12088  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2022, 6:48 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
...There are days when I think we need the Germans to get bored again and take Belgium or something, just so we Americans can get our shit together. (I jest.)
Puti (pronounced pooty) just might turn your jesting into an actual thing
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  #12089  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2022, 7:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
We rallied around WWII, and a pandemic in 1919, but we're 0-1 on those in this era. Imagine today's level of government-sponsored public-opinion manipulation via internet (didn't Facebook determine that thousands of the most popular messages were from Russia alone?), writ large to divide the population about the war issue.
Except that Covid was only a real pandemic for a slice of the population. Had this been a virus that wiped out 5% of every age group, there would be a little more uniting.....
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  #12090  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2022, 8:17 PM
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That was quite the narrative and at the least well articulated

But it reminds me of the client who brings in a long list to the therapist's office and the therapist calmly asking "Which one of these items would you like to tackle first?" Or my Ex deciding she's unhappy and it's all my fault b/c ofc she's having a bad hair day.

I'm more of a Macro guy

A decade ago (which isn't long in hindsight) we were still trying to recover from the greatest financial crisis in my lifetime and in most places there were so many 'extra' houses around that affordability was the last thing anybody concerned themselves with.

Housing affordability has only become a 'growing' problem over the last four to five years and if you want to understand where this is true then take a second look at the migration map I posted and a larger sample size over the last decade would include Colorado and Washington State.

While there's no shortage of land, Millennials decided they wanted to live in city centers so why build outward if nobody wants to live there (going back a decade)? Unfortunately urban construction is expensive and Denver doesn't have the needed depth of 40 year old properties to mitigate the higher cost of new construction.

Don't forget there's the Pandemic created constipated global supply chain. But at the end of the day if buyers weren't willing to step up and pay higher prices then prices wouldn't go up.
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  #12091  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2022, 8:35 PM
SirLucasTheGreat SirLucasTheGreat is offline
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I'm not so sure that the fact that COVID disproportionately kills the old explains why we haven't rallied together around defeating it. I think we live in an age where misinformation is easily spread and there are a million actors competing for every last second of the public's ever diminishing attention span. The fact that a novel pathogen is responsible for a million excess American deaths in under two years should be enough to cause a country to come together even if it spares the young. As a fit 32 year old, I've never been afraid of becoming seriously ill but I guess I can tolerate trivial inconveniences if that might save someone's grandpa or grandma.

Last edited by SirLucasTheGreat; Jan 18, 2022 at 8:52 PM.
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  #12092  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2022, 9:14 PM
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Impressive comment; very well said
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Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat View Post
I'm not so sure that the fact that COVID disproportionately kills the old explains why we haven't rallied together around defeating it. I think we live in an age where misinformation is easily spread and there are a million actors competing for every last second of the public's ever diminishing attention span. The fact that a novel pathogen is responsible for a million excess American deaths in under two years should be enough to cause a country to come together even if it spares the young. As a fit 32 year old, I've never been afraid of becoming seriously ill but I guess I can tolerate trivial inconveniences if that might save someone's grandpa or grandma.
Speaking of bad hair days

that would be today's markets. Interest rates and crude oil are 'popping' while stocks are down.

What this means

Higher interest rates will impact the resale housing market but less so new home construction. That may be a good thing, sort of.

Higher crude oil prices mean higher gas costs at the pump (obviously) but I don't expect we'll ever again see an 'over-investment' in oil & gas drilling leading to a crash in prices like happened in 2014.

We are going to have to live with higher gas costs moving forward I suspect. The now over $85/barrel (today's closing @ $86.04) means where I'm at gas costs reaching $4.00/gallon. Just something else that will aggravate inflation as oil is a component of hundreds of products and the now habit of warehouse to home delivery will mean increasing costs to the consumer on a number of things.
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  #12093  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2022, 10:14 PM
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Changing the Topic

How many of you have been around long enough to remember January of 1995? Well I remember. What a year that was!

This time in 1995 we were anticipating the opening of Denver International Airport (February 28, 1995). But that's not all. We were also anticipating the opening of Coors Field (April 26, 1995). And just to top things off there was all this buzz about a "New Urbanism" neighborhood developing where the old Stapleton airport was vacating.

When DIA was built there was this natural anticipation of duplicating the success of DFW and it's surrounding development. But that never happened. Denver has never attracted the 'heavier' industry whether aircraft related or in general.

It has taken 25 years for DIA to finally begin to see the original vision of development. The opening of the Gaylord Rockies Resort (Dec 17, 2018) was one catalyst for the area.

Using a smaller lens I understand that many bemoan the "sprawl" but using my macro lens and thinking of the ongoing development of the greater Denver metro area from (say) Castle Rock to Longmont, development around DIA is amazingly centrally located.

The wait was a godsend as today's warehouses and fulfillment centers are very different from 20 years ago; they're modern; they're automated and they're designed to meet all of our lifestyle changes over the last 25 years.

With respect to residential development today's new neighborhoods are much more dense; they're mixed use and mixed density which is so much more efficient from when Denver's own 'suburbs' were developed 40 to 50 years ago.
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  #12094  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2022, 4:53 AM
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Somebody mentioned this recently

Tom's Diner prior to closing in March 2020 and construction activity January 2022


Photo courtesy GBX Group LLC via Mile High CRE

Construction Underway at Tom’s Diner
January 17, 2022 - Mile High CRE

I didn't realize exactly what had happened as a part of a happy ending
Quote:
Tom’s Diner, an iconic 24/7 hotspot owned and operated for more than two decades by Denverite Tom Messina — that was recently saved from demolition and landed itself on the National Register of Historic Places — is currently undergoing a full renovation of the original space, a unique design pioneered in the mid-20th century by nationally recognized Los Angeles architecture firm Armét & Davis.

Cleveland-based GBX Group, a firm specializing in the acquisition, preservation, and operation of historic real estate in urban markets, and project developer Denver Land Company, played a key role in facilitating and materializing project plans.
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  #12095  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2022, 11:55 AM
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I debated bringing this up; decided to throw it out there
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Originally Posted by Sam Hill View Post
Most of us are urbanists who want to live in a walkable neighborhood. All such areas in Denver have become stupid expensive.

I’m looking for two bedrooms so I can have enough space to not have to live like a 20-year-old anymore. Every once in a while one pops up that’s less than $400k (I only make $100k per year so my options are very limited) and they’re virtually always condos, so now we have to tack on an HOA of $600-ish per month. With the HOA and mortgage insurance, now we’re well north of $2500 per month and I’m priced out.

Another thing we have to consider is that most of these precious few homes available are going to end up in a bidding war and sell for more than their listing price, and often to a cash buyer.

I have seen some places I can barely afford show up from time to time (I have my search limited to “Denver”) but they’re usually something like a tiny ranch house with bars on the windows in SW Denver or something out in the middle of nowhere like Green Valley Ranch.
You did mention SW Denver and Green Valley Ranch.

I know of this really special area in SE Denver; I had to update what today's prices are. Mature landscaping, generally quiet and nearby access to whatever you could need. The neighborhood runs along (east of) the High Line Canal Trail where you can walk for miles and miles. To the west of the High Line Canal Trail lies Cherry Creek Country Club.



There's two projects that are concrete structures (that you're familiar with) with shared HVAC creating monthly HOA dues of $527/mo in what's called Woodstream Falls. There's a 2 bd 2 ba 1138 Sq Ft unit under contract that was listed for $220,000. Woodstream Falls is a half block from the High Line Canal Trail.

There's a nicer complex called Dayton Green at 2525 So Dayton Way Denver, 80231. The HOA is 'only' $393/mo. These units are right along the High Line Canal Trail and a 2 bd 2ba 1200 Sq Ft unit is currently under contract with a listed price of $274,000. Dayton Green would be my preference. Here's an aerial view. Here's a few photos:

....

....

Both complexes are 'out-of-place' in that they were built in 1972 & 1973 while the rest of the neighborhood is newer nicer townhomes, condos and apartments with individual utility meters. The neighborhood is SW of Iliff and Parker Rd. Babi Yar Park is within the neighborhood and across the street is Sam's No 3 and other retail.

Dayton Green

Woodstream Falls
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  #12096  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2022, 5:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat View Post
I'm not so sure that the fact that COVID disproportionately kills the old explains why we haven't rallied together around defeating it. I think we live in an age where misinformation is easily spread and there are a million actors competing for every last second of the public's ever diminishing attention span. The fact that a novel pathogen is responsible for a million excess American deaths in under two years should be enough to cause a country to come together even if it spares the young. As a fit 32 year old, I've never been afraid of becoming seriously ill but I guess I can tolerate trivial inconveniences if that might save someone's grandpa or grandma.
You aren't saving someone's grandpa. This disease is more infectious than the common cold. There is no way to avoid it and everyone will eventually get it. One positive, we will probably reach herd immunity faster with Omicron and the infection rate is already peaking... KNOCK ON WOOD.

On to development news... the Greyhound Station is almost entirely demolished really changing the look of the area. I will snap a picture soon.
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  #12097  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2022, 5:37 PM
twister244 twister244 is offline
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
I debated bringing this up; decided to throw it out there


You did mention SW Denver and Green Valley Ranch.

I know of this really special area in SE Denver; I had to update what today's prices are. Mature landscaping, generally quiet and nearby access to whatever you could need. The neighborhood runs along (east of) the High Line Canal Trail where you can walk for miles and miles. To the west of the High Line Canal Trail lies Cherry Creek Country Club.



There's two projects that are concrete structures (that you're familiar with) with shared HVAC creating monthly HOA dues of $527/mo in what's called Woodstream Falls. There's a 2 bd 2 ba 1138 Sq Ft unit under contract that was listed for $220,000. Woodstream Falls is a half block from the High Line Canal Trail.

There's a nicer complex called Dayton Green at 2525 So Dayton Way Denver, 80231. The HOA is 'only' $393/mo. These units are right along the High Line Canal Trail and a 2 bd 2ba 1200 Sq Ft unit is currently under contract with a listed price of $274,000. Dayton Green would be my preference. Here's an aerial view. Here's a few photos:

....

....

Both complexes are 'out-of-place' in that they were built in 1972 & 1973 while the rest of the neighborhood is newer nicer townhomes, condos and apartments with individual utility meters. The neighborhood is SW of Iliff and Parker Rd. Babi Yar Park is within the neighborhood and across the street is Sam's No 3 and other retail.

Dayton Green

Woodstream Falls
I get that you are trying to project this image that if you just look hard enough, you can find affordable places in Denver.... But the reality is that for most people, things have gotten crazy.

My building in Denver listed a unit on Redfin less than a week ago for $420k. It's a 1-bed / 1-bath 786 sq ft condo in Jefferson Park. It's already under contract.....

I also read a stunning stat the other day about the metro area at large. At the time of the Marshall fire, which burned around 1,000 homes, there were only 1,900-2,000 real estate listings in the ENTIRE Denver metro area. Think about that for a minute, the amount of houses that just got destroyed in a fire are equal to half of ALL real estate listings available for purchase across the metro area at the moment.

I don't see how the affordability problem doesn't get worse before interest rates start cooling things off later this year.
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  #12098  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2022, 6:06 PM
SirLucasTheGreat SirLucasTheGreat is offline
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The US has 2,626 deaths per million due to COVID. Name me a country that has more deaths per Capita that's not either in Latin America or Eastern Europe. Canada has 832 deaths per million even with an older population. There are a myriad of factors that influence how many dead bodies each country has packed up but I don't think you can say that Canada has taken the virus less seriously than we have. Yet, if we had their death rate, almost 600,000 Americans that died of COVID would still be alive. Obviously, Omicron is hard to avoid but I'm speaking retrospectively as others here mentioned that a pandemic wasn't going on for much of the population as if there haven't been close to a million excess Americans death and some seem to think that our level of mortality was inevitable, even though our demographically-comparable Northern peer has less than a third of our death rate

Last edited by SirLucasTheGreat; Jan 19, 2022 at 6:38 PM.
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  #12099  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2022, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat View Post
The US has 2,626 deaths per million due to COVID. Name me a country that has more deaths per Capita that's not either in Latin America or Eastern Europe. Canada has 832 deaths per million even with an older population. There are a myriad of factors that influence how many dead bodies each country has packed up but I don't think you can say that Canada has taken the virus less seriously than we have. Yet, if we had their death rate, almost 600,000 Americans that died of COVID would still be alive. I don't want to detract from the focus of this forum but people really seem to lack perspective on how absurd of a human cost we have tolerated in this country. Our obnoxious death toll was preventable through people having a scintilla of civic responsibility. I'll gladly destroy any statements that attempt to argue to the contrary. There is a bunch of literature objectively demonstrating the utility of public health interventions.
Lets keep this board on topic. I don't want to see another round of insults start flying because everyone thinks they have a perfect understanding of the world. Ryan recently cleaned up the non-development drivel and what a joy it was to be free of the bickering. Agreed?

That being in said, I'd be happy to meet you in person assuming you live somewhere in central Denver, perhaps a brewery? We can have our little discussion there versus annoying everyone on this board.
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  #12100  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2022, 6:41 PM
SirLucasTheGreat SirLucasTheGreat is offline
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Fair enough. Sorry I get worked up about this. Great news on Greyhound. Just waiting to see when Amacon breaks ground. Looks like they were resolving something with the fire department last week.
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