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  #41  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 2:47 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Can never understand people who use the whataboutism whine about battery manufacturing. O&G messing up the environment or creating political and social issues didn't stop the use of fossil fuels. What makes you think it would be different with EVs?
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  #42  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 3:32 AM
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I'm not sure I agree we should go 100% nuclear, but it should play a much bigger role than it currently does, and I thought it was one of Angela Merkel's biggest mistakes to cave to anti-nuclear forces and essentially shut down Germany's nuclear industry. I'm glad to live in a state with a significant amount of nuclear production, although I'll admit the risk of contaminating Lake Michigan before the Zion plant shut down in 1998 was concerning. Even though it was very unlikely, rendering the drinking water for tens of millions of people undrinkable for potentially hundreds of years and potentially irradiating plants and animals for hundreds of miles is legitimate reason to tread extraordinarily cautiously. It can be hard to accurately quantify the risk-reward ratio with fission because the extreme ends of the tails in a risk bell curve still have the potential for catastrophic impact at the continental scale. You can tell people all day that the risk of some Very Bad Event are 1:1,000,000,000,000 but if the Very Bad Event includes fatally contaminating one of the world's largest sources of fresh water, the focus will be on the badness of the event and not the minuscule risk of it happening.

I think most of the current concern with nuclear energy will go away if/when we can replace fission plants with economical fusion nuclear plants. Too bad the amounts of needed hydrogen in play would be so small that it's not a likely source of significant helium production. Running out of helium will be sad. I still don't understand why we got rid of the strategic helium reserve.
We can't trust the private sector to build nuclear plants. None of them can possibly handle a disaster, so the government would pick up the risk anyway.
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  #43  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 4:27 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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It's a discussion about EVs. Who cares about the power source?

1) If coal, still better to centralize at one location. And still offer combined fuel efficiency and emissions better than most cars on the road. Power mix can change too.

2) It takes a hell of a lot of electricity to refine, store and transport gasoline. Decline sales of gas could actually free up some power.

3) EVs going mainstream are on par with everyone getting air conditioners. That's about the average increase in demand from averaging driving rates. Everybody getting AC didn't kill the grid. This will be even less impactful since most EV charging will be off-peak.

If nuclear can compete on price, let it.
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  #44  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 6:50 AM
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As an EV owner myself,
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  #45  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 2:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Can never understand people who use the whataboutism whine about battery manufacturing. O&G messing up the environment or creating political and social issues didn't stop the use of fossil fuels. What makes you think it would be different with EVs?
Isn't the whole point towards EV to force people to clean up the air we breath. Social issues will always exist no matter what way we go. At this point I think high mileage Hybrid is the best option, and stop building 5000lbs SUV's.

Smaller cars with gas and electric until they figure out how to make batteries that don't cause as much pollution. HybridCars use much smaller batteries ofcourse and you don't have to plug them in for 8 hours.

By the way, how much does a Tesla weight. They need to be reduced in size by a lot. This is not about who is right or wrong, its about the best options at this point in time.

The Mazda Miata is normal steel construction and is less then 2400lbs. It can be done but they have to be smaller.
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  #46  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 4:16 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by F1 Tommy View Post
Isn't the whole point towards EV to force people to clean up the air we breath.
Which they do. We have data on well-to-wheels emissions.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...61920916301973

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...12827118309570

But more to the point, EVs are catching on for economic reasons. Not because people give a shit about the environment. If they cared about the environment, they wouldn't be buying cars at all. The subsidies are driving adoption and battery prices are coming down fast enough that subsidies won't be necessary in a year or two.

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Originally Posted by F1 Tommy View Post
At this point I think high mileage Hybrid is the best option, and stop building 5000lbs SUV's.
The market is what it is. People are going to buy SUVs. Carmakers are going to sell them. It's better if some of those SUVs are electrified. Also, it's not a choice between electric or hybrid. There's room for both. Which is why car makers sell both.

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Originally Posted by F1 Tommy View Post
Smaller cars with gas and electric until they figure out how to make batteries that don't cause as much pollution. HybridCars use much smaller batteries ofcourse and you don't have to plug them in for 8 hours.
See above. Small cars are pointless in markets where nobody wants to buy small cars (North America). They work well in places where people do want small cars (Europe, India, etc.). Automakers manufacture accordingly.


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Originally Posted by F1 Tommy View Post
By the way, how much does a Tesla weight. They need to be reduced in size by a lot. This is not about who is right or wrong, its about the best options at this point in time.
A Tesla's weight is entirely irrelevant. Despite it's weight, it outperforms a lot of gas cars and has a lower operating cost compared to all the direct gas/diesel competitors, by an order of magnitude in some jurisdictions.

I have yet to hear someone say, "I won't buy that sedan because it weighs too much." Nobody gives a shit about weight unless they are buying a truck and it impacts their towing capacity.

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Originally Posted by F1 Tommy View Post
The Mazda Miata is normal steel construction and is less then 2400lbs. It can be done but they have to be smaller.
How many Miatas did Mazda sell and how does that compare to the heaviest Tesla?
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  #47  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Which they do. We have data on well-to-wheels emissions.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...61920916301973

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...12827118309570

But more to the point, EVs are catching on for economic reasons. Not because people give a shit about the environment. If they cared about the environment, they wouldn't be buying cars at all. The subsidies are driving adoption and battery prices are coming down fast enough that subsidies won't be necessary in a year or two.



The market is what it is. People are going to buy SUVs. Carmakers are going to sell them. It's better if some of those SUVs are electrified. Also, it's not a choice between electric or hybrid. There's room for both. Which is why car makers sell both.



See above. Small cars are pointless in markets where nobody wants to buy small cars (North America). They work well in places where people do want small cars (Europe, India, etc.). Automakers manufacture accordingly.




A Tesla's weight is entirely irrelevant. Despite it's weight, it outperforms a lot of gas cars and has a lower operating cost compared to all the direct gas/diesel competitors, by an order of magnitude in some jurisdictions.

I have yet to hear someone say, "I won't buy that sedan because it weighs too much." Nobody gives a shit about weight unless they are buying a truck and it impacts their towing capacity.



How many Miatas did Mazda sell and how does that compare to the heaviest Tesla?
All your answers miss the point. A lighter vehicle saves fuel and energy. You want to save energy and "save the world" we have to drive smaller vehicles in North America. Driving large trucks with electric motors will save a lot less than driving a small car with an electric motor. You don't need a 3 ton vehicle to get groceries.

What this tells me is you will jump over hoops to buy electric, wich still has its problems but you refuse to budge on your huge tank SUV to save energy?? Very limited thinking.

There was very little market for electric cars until the government started pushing it. GM and several other companies lost their shirts on every electric car they made. Now the government stepped in. They should also start taxing bigger vehicles much higher to make people stop buying them in the same way.

Last edited by F1 Tommy; Feb 13, 2020 at 5:08 PM.
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  #48  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 5:17 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by F1 Tommy View Post
You want to save energy and "save the world"
No. We want to cut emissions to "save the world".

That you don't get this is why you're struggling understanding what's going on here.

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Originally Posted by F1 Tommy View Post
we have to drive smaller vehicles in North America. Driving large trucks with electric motors will save a lot less than driving a small car with an electric motor. You don't need a 3 ton vehicle to get groceries.

What this tells me is you will jump over hoops to buy electric, wich still has its problems but you refuse to budge on your huge tank SUV to save energy?? Very limited thinking.
We tried your way. How'd electric cars sell before Tesla came along and made them attractive?

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Originally Posted by F1 Tommy View Post
GM and several other companies lost their shirts on every electric car they made. Now the government stepped in. They should also start taxing bigger vehicles much higher to make people stop buying them in the same way.
Yep. And now we're getting to the point where no subsidies are needed. Cost curves are fantastic like that. Enjoy the graphs. At a $100/kwh, electric become as cheap as gas cars without any subsidies. We were at $156/kWh in 2019.





https://about.bnef.com/blog/behind-s...attery-prices/

Gas cars can stay competitive, if they put can cut prices by 10-15% per year.
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  #49  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 5:22 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Some of you really need to read up about what is happening in the automotive world. The other car companies are in an absolute panic about EVs. The EU and Germany is putting in 3.5 billion Euros to build battery factories to help their auto sector compete with Tesla.

There is fear everywhere. 3 years of dropping car sales globally. Only electric cars have seen growth. And Tesla is stealing share from BMW and Mercedes.

Adapt or get run over. The flood of EVs coming next year will be somewhat competitive without subsidies.
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  #50  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 5:25 PM
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I understand they are making enough of them and have gotten better with technology and costs, but you are missing the point about weight. I think most Tesla owners must have a 6000 lbs gas vehicle in their garage next to their Tesla's The vehicle you use when the Tesla is charging?? As I stated in my first post EV is a good idea, but we are not there yet no matter what you want to believe due to several issues.
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  #51  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 5:28 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Everyone needs to learn how tech disruptions work:

https://youtu.be/y916mxoio0E

You need to understand that this is not just some steady new technological progress taking course. The Model 3 was as disruptive to the auto world as the iPhone was to the smartphone world. Before the iPhone, Nokia, RIM/Blackberry, Palm and Sony-Ericsson were the dominant players in the mobile telecom game. Where are they now? Two companies who had never made phones before 2007 (Apple and Google) dominate this space now. Watch the video if you really want to understand what's going on. You might just learn something....

As for me, I have a car. Don't own an EV. Might consider one when the price is right. I am a user and strong supporter of public transit. And I genuinely think EVs might actually do harm too (facilitating urban sprawl through cheaper driving). But that doesn't stop me from understanding the trend.

Last edited by Truenorth00; Feb 13, 2020 at 5:42 PM.
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  #52  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 5:36 PM
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Originally Posted by F1 Tommy View Post
I understand they are making enough of them and have gotten better with technology and costs, but you are missing the point about weight.
No I am not. I am dismissing your point about weight. The heavy Teslas have lower energy costs and are more energy efficient than any competitor in their class, which are all gas.

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I think most Tesla owners must have a 6000 lbs gas vehicle in their garage next to their Tesla's.
With 300 miles of range and more coming? Unlikely. In 5 years, every EV will have 300 miles of range. Even the entry level ones. Tesla will probably be at 500+.

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The vehicle you use when the Tesla is charging??
Dumb question. What's the vehicle you use when putting gas in your vehicle. I don't think you get how most EV owners actually use their vehicles. They charge them at night when rates are low and they are sleeping. They wake up to a full tank of gas every morning.

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As I stated in my first post EV is a good idea, but we are not there yet no matter what you want to believe due to several issues.
Plenty of issues. But those are all being addresses. There's also plenty of benefits which accrue right away. No need to go out of your way to put gas. Low maintenance (no oil changes, longer lasting brake pads, etc.). Over-the-air updates. All benefits which you will never see on a gas car.

I don't even own an electric vehicle. I can just see the benefit. And I can see where the market is going. Watch the video I posted. You might just begin to understand what is coming and why all the legacy automakers are in an utter panic to rush out EVs.
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  #53  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 5:47 PM
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So you don't think a lighter weight Tesla would be even more efficient??

You atleast admit they are resolving the "issues".

It takes 3 minutes to fill the tank on my gas hybrid.

How long does it take to change a EV again?? God forbid you don't get a full charge due to time limitations.

And yes in a few more years the EV will be a better option but we are not there yet.

I still think at this point in time Hybrids "save the world" more than full electric. You have not proven anything. And electric auto makers are still getting government assistance directly and in directly.
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  #54  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 5:55 PM
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Originally Posted by F1 Tommy View Post
I understand they are making enough of them and have gotten better with technology and costs, but you are missing the point about weight. I think most Tesla owners must have a 6000 lbs gas vehicle in their garage next to their Tesla's The vehicle you use when the Tesla is charging?? As I stated in my first post EV is a good idea, but we are not there yet no matter what you want to believe due to several issues.

EVs are negligibly heavier than gas cars of the same size. a 2020 camry weighs 3,241 to 3,572 lbs, and a 2020 3 series 3,582 to 3,764 lbs; a model 3 (which is almost the same size) weighs 3,552 to 4,100 lbs. cars in general are all heavy these days. a miata is not a fair comparison, those are TINY two seaters. my FRS is small, and it still weighs 2800ish.
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  #55  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 5:58 PM
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Originally Posted by F1 Tommy View Post
So you don't think a lighter weight Tesla would be even more efficient??
It would. But it would also have less range, making it less attractive to customers. You may care how much cars weigh. But most car buyers don't. And carmakers build what sells.

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It takes me 3 minutes to fill up with gas in my small fuel efficient gas powered hybrid. How long does the charge a EV take again?? God forbid you don't get a full charge due to time limitations.
You still don't get it. Most people don't waste time charging because it is a concurrent activitity. They are either sleeping at home or taking a piss and grabbing a burger at the truck stop while they charge.

And faster charging is on the way:
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And yes in a few more years the EV will be a better option but we are not there yet.

I still think at this point in time Hybrids "save the world" more than full electric. You have not proven anything.
I don't have to prove a thing. I am not some emotionally invested fanboy. I just call it like I see it. I see EVs gaining marketshare every year. I see total car sales falling. I see battery prices falling. And I see the approaching inflection point of the hockey stick on the S-curve. Whether you "believe" it or not is irrelevant. How you feel about it is irrelevant. The auto execs making decisions, investors putting down their money, and car buyers signing up don't care about your feelings.

Old man saying this newfangled thing is crazy and won't work. Where have I heard that story before?

"The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty - a fad." - Banker advising Henry Ford's lawyer Horace Rackham not to invest in Ford Motors. His $5000 investment grew to $12.5 million in a decade.
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  #56  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 6:09 PM
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I am not saying in a few years they will be the best option, but right now Hybrid is still better. I keep saying the same thing because right now Hybrid is better.

It's not about feelings. I love new technology.

On the weight issue, that will become a bigger issue as the battery technology gets better and better. The US and Canadians do need to start buying smaller vehicles.

The Miata has all the new required vehicle safety equipment so it is a fair to compare. Can you imagine a carbon fiber chassis 4 door midsize car with an electric motor in a few years weighing less than that. It is possible. Now that would save the world with more efficient batteries.

Tesla weights

Tesla model S weighs about 4,647 lbs (2,107 kgs). while models 3 and X weigh 3,552 lbs (1,611 kgs) and 5,421 lbs (2,458 kgs) respectively.
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  #57  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 6:23 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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I am not saying in a few years they will be the best option, but right now Hybrid is still better. I keep saying the same thing because right now Hybrid is better.
That's your feelings. And your feelings are subjective. There are almost a million Tesla customers who disagree. Along with millions more EV owners from other brands. Carmakers can offer hybrids and EVs and let the market decide.


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It's not about feelings. I love new technology.
Given your lack of facts and comprehension, this doesn't appear to be the case.

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On the weight issue, that will become a bigger issue as the battery technology gets better and better.
No. It will be less of an issue. The batteries are what make electric cars heavy. The more energy dense they get, the lighter the car gets. You really don't know much about this topic....

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The US Canadians do need to start buying smaller vehicles.
Sure. But not for the reasons you suggest. Safety is probably the biggest reason we should all buy smaller vehicles. But it is what it is and the government isn't going to dictate preferences. So at least let these trucks and SUVs be electric and loaded with sensors for saftey.

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The Miata has all the new required vehicle safety equipment so it is a fair to compare.
The Miata is for old dudes who want to pretend they are 30 years younger than they actually are. It's not practical for anyone with a family, a job or a pet. It's the runner up sports car. Nothing screams, "I couldn't afford an actual Roadster but still wanted to feel cool." like a Miata.

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Can you imagine a carbon fiber chassis 4 door midsize car with an electric motor in a few years weighing less than that. It is possible. Now that would save the world with more efficient batteries.
Electric vehicles are so efficient that Tesla's Semi will have lower well to wheels consumption and emissions that a Honda Civic. Which is why nobody gives a shit about vehicle weight. Once everybody is driving electric vehicles with 90 MPGe, than we can discuss whether that 110MPGe Model S is a little too chunky. But there are nearly a billion cars to replace before that discussion happens.
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  #58  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 6:29 PM
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"No. It will be less of an issue. The batteries are what make electric cars heavy. The more energy dense they get, the lighter the car gets. You really don't know much about this topic...."

Well no kidding, that my point that batteries will be lighter. It's obvious you know everything.

Less weight will also help handling, but if you like heavy vehicles you might not understand that.

And I would not be caught dead or a alive in a Miata. It was a reference. Light weight will help many things.

Just curious, what kind of vehicle do you own if not electric?
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  #59  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 6:32 PM
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It's obvious you know everything.
Certainly more than you on this topic.

Do us a favour, take up a sign and go protest your nearest Tesla location about their heavy cars. We all need a comical news story on TV these days.....
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  #60  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2020, 6:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Certainly more than you on this topic.

Do us a favour, take up a sign and go protest your nearest Tesla location about their heavy cars. We all need a comical news story on TV these days.....
I am not a liberal, sorry I don't protest anything.
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