[Stoney Creek] 310 Frances Ave | ? | 44fl, 37fl, 34fl | Approved

[LRTfan]

Originally Posted by king10

Except for the fact that Hamilton didn't zone that land, Saltfleet Township did, which was amalgamated to Stoney Creek which was amalgamated to Hamilton, other than that no changes

Good point...Stoney Creek was being ambitious at the time. Hamilton was probably already caving to NIMBYs

[lachlanholmes]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

I don't agree those should be the models aha, those cities suck to live in and are car paradise. There is no city I hate visiting than Vaugn or Sauga. Their downtowns have absolutely no walkabiliry when compared to Toronto or Hamilton's downtown. Cities aren't just height. New York would not be as desirable as it is if it's road were 6 lanes across and we're built like essentially a skyscraper suburb. I appreciate good design and tall buildings but I can't in good conscience support badly designed cities for the purposes of my personal desires.

I don't disagree at all with your comment on cars or walkability - we believe in removing parking requirements (especially in the downtown) and yes those places have places have a ways to go to on pedestrian-friendliness.

My point is that they are models on height and density, and that increased height does not create an issue in urban growth or specifically, walkability. We need to borrow best practices from all cities - Mississauga is right to remove height limits, European cities are right to shrink streets and 'force' people onto transit and out of cars, etc.

Originally Posted by mikevbar1

I dont think its an exaggeration at all. Hamilton is not, and should never see itself as, a suburb of Toronto like Burlington, Oakville or even Sauga/Vaughn. I mention the first two because we are a real city, with a real, tangible downtown that needs development. frankly, while every city holds a NIMBY presence, Hamilton has embraced their mindset and enabled them to dictate policies. What city in their right mind turns away meager 40fl buildings right in their downtown (especially cities needing urban revitalization, like Hamilton)? Oakville and Burlington have at least some merit to turn these developments away, as a far larger portion of people living there are true suburbanites for Toronto. But even that argument doesnt hold up, as the aforementioned Bridgewater project has gone forward, along with various others across the region.

If anything, the people in Hamilton who advocate against the taller buildings want them in suburbia, where they can't be seen. They frankly do not care about "smart growth", and would rather encourage suburban development as a whole. We see it all the time, and its frankly discouraging to see 40+ detached homes get approved without a hitch out on the east mountain on empty farmland while any given 20+ floor condo building has to go through a thousand hurdles to get approved on an empty lot. Of course, This project isn't in a good location. It doesn't make any sense when considering urban planning at all. But I see it as a big 'fuck you' to the city rather than a legitimate proposal. Hamilton is one of the largest cities in Canada, and the third largest (proper) city in Ontario (I dont count Mississauga since its so close to Toronto). It's time we act like it. Sadly this long-running anti-business, anti-development mindset runs deep in our city and has done so for almost 50 years now. These suburban skyscrapers here are just a symptom of a larger issue. I know I've deviated a bit from your original point, but I hope to just add some context to this whole project how I see it.

+1

I agree. I said on my personal twitter to someone that I don't think this project would have any market if they allowed it and similar in the downtown and I still believe that. But hey, preserving escarpment views.

[LRTfan]

Hey look. The tallest residential building in Western Canada (for now) about to be built in...........

Burnaby BC. Pretty sad when suburbs like Burnaby, Vaughan and Mississauga are far more serious about increasing density, transit and walkability than a so-called 'real city' like Hamilton.

https://urbanyvr.com/gilmore-place-construction-onni

[thomax]

source

CBC Hamilton - Stoney Creek towers would be a Hamilton landmark, developer says

Samantha Craggs | April 26, 2019

To hear developer Jeff Paikin tell it, you don't really know you're entering a city when you head westbound on the QEW from Niagara toward Hamilton. But he says his three planned Stoney Creek towers, roughly the size of Mississauga's Absolute World buildings, would change that.

The president of New Horizon Development Group wants to build three condo towers — one 48 storeys, one 54 and one 59 — at 310 Frances Ave. If approved, they'd be the three tallest buildings in Hamilton. It's an area without regular bus service, served only by trans cab. It also needs sewer infrastructure upgrades to service the estimated 2,500 Hamiltonians who would live there.

Paikin said these are surmountable obstacles. Height isn't the enemy, he said. Height is a landmark.

"When you drive the QEW, there's no distinguishing mark that says 'Now you're in the city of Hamilton,'" he said. "Hopefully, this will help put it even further on the map."

Viv Saunders calls that "window dressing."

Saunders is part of the Lakewood Beach Community Council. She was among the seven residents who told city council's planning committee last week that the project just doesn't fit. The area, north of the QEW near Green Road, is mostly single-family detached homes and townhouses.

Frances Avenue itself is a residential cul-de-sac, she said, and it can't handle car traffic from 1,826 residential units. The street is too narrow for bus service, she said, and running buses along North Service Road would be a safety hazard. There's nowhere for them to even pull over.

"We also don't have sidewalks," she said.

The project is on a parcel of land earmarked for high-density since the 1970s. It's also one of the few areas in Hamilton with no restriction on building height. Paikin's project only requires site plan approval, and top city planning staff can grant that. It doesn't have to go to council.

Coun. Maria Pearson (Ward 10) said she'll either hold a public information session or mail out a notice of the project to residents. Paikin said New Horizon would attend a public session.

He believes his development will give the city incentive to beef up transit service there.

"The thing I can comfortably say is without more people, there will be no chance for transit that's typical to an urban setting. With a greater need, there's an opportunity to make transit financially viable."

Pearson said the city is looking at more transit north of the QEW, but people have to support it. "I need butts in the seats to keep the system going," she said. "It's not going to be cheap to run the buses … Use it or lose it, and we'll see where it goes from there."

The project inched forward this week. New Horizon met with city planning staff Wednesday, and the two sides will meet again.

The plan also includes a four-storey podium that would connect the three buildings, and about 400 square metres of commercial space.

Paikin, who grew up on Hamilton Mountain, has numerous projects in the works.

His company is behind the Essence town homes development in Waterdown, the four-building Trend condo complex in Waterdown, Sapphire condos in Stoney Creek, and Peachy town homes in Winona. It's also building Bridgewater Residences in Burlington, Utopia town homes in Beamsville and Focus town homes in Brantford.

[King&James]

So looking forward to seeing how swiftly this moves through site plan approval. New Horizon doing well in Waterdown, so hopefully flush with cash to get planning pros to get proposal in shape for approval.

[realcity]

Paikin is right about this being a landmark and gateway to the City. I could see this area developing like the Humber river in Etobicoke south. That's if the City doesn't change the rules on height limits after this gets built...which I see them doing. Because there are going to be lots of ppl having a cow over this. The politicians don't want to touch this, and a staffer (I won't name) will be having nitemares of skyscrapers.

[realcity]

Question. What is the Chamber of Commerce official stance on height limits?

[lachlanholmes]

Originally Posted by realcity

Question. What is the Chamber of Commerce official stance on height limits?

I don't recall them taking a stance on the height limit. They are, however, pro-development and have advocated heavily for reducing red tape on development.

[king10]

Originally Posted by realcity

Paikin is right about this being a landmark and gateway to the City. I could see this area developing like the Humber river in Etobicoke south. That's if the City doesn't change the rules on height limits after this gets built...which I see them doing. Because there are going to be lots of ppl having a cow over this. The politicians don't want to touch this, and a staffer (I won't name) will be having nitemares of skyscrapers.

What other sites in this area have no height limits? Thought this parcel of land was the only one?

[LRTfan]

the podium needs some work, but the tower designs are looking good as more refined renders come out....like something you'd see in the GTA or Vancouver.

[thistleclub]

Urban Capital/Rogers Real Estate Development's 81-storey M3 Condos, part of the M City complex (Burnhamthorpe Rd. W. & Confederation Pkwy), Mississauga, ON:

Two blocks from the (currently redacted loop of the) Hurontario LRT, 15 minute walk from the City Centre Transit Terminal & MiWay bus transit network. On the edge of Mississauga's Civic Centre, Art Gallery of Mississauga, Living Arts Centre, Central Library, Celebration Square, Sheridan's McCallion Campus, and Square One — the largest shopping mall in the province – plus amenities like Cineplex Mississauga, Playdium, and Whole Foods.

M3/M City is in step with Mississauga's Downtown 21 Master Plan and Metrolinx's Mobility Hub Guidelines.

M3 Condos: Walk Score 88, Transit Score 68, Bike Score 73
310 Frances Ave: Walk Score 8, Transit Score 22, Bike Score 27




60-storey CG Tower, part of Cortel's Expo City, Hwy 7 & Hwy 400, Vaughan, ON:

"Conveniently located steps from the Subway, VIVA and GO transportation stations… in the heart of the bustling Vaughan Metropolitan Centre."

"These towers, the first of five in a complex called Expo City and the tallest buildings in York Region, are the first manifestations of a plan to build a downtown from scratch...,. The vision is closely tied to the $2.6-billion, 8.6-kilometre York-Spadina subway extension slowly tunnelling its way north from Downsview Station. It's the first time Toronto's subway has reached past the city limits and will service Vaughan with about a 45-minute ride to Union Station.… The vision is for a true live-work-and-play city featuring green space, office and condo towers, pedestrian links, hotels, entertainment venues and 36,000 workers and residents."

CG Tower is in step with the Vaughan Metropolitan Centre Secondary Plan and Metrolinx's Mobility Hub Guidelines.

CG Tower: Walk Score 32, Transit Score 75, Bike Score 44
310 Frances Ave: Walk Score 8, Transit Score 22, Bike Score 27




Onni's Gilmore Place, Gilmore Ave. & Lougheed Hwy, Burnaby BC:

"• a 64-storey signature tower with 643 units
• a 51-storey tower with 510 units
• a 43-storey tower with 410 units
• 71,498 SF of residential amenity space atop the commercial podium
• 291,652 SF of commercial space in a large 3-storey podium
• large format retail and smaller CRUs as well as potential office and educational space on upper levels
• total density of 6.6 FAR
• connection to Skytrain station"

New Horizon's towers at Frances & Teal also has a trio of towers in the same height ballpark as GP, but with 1/73 as much commercial space, and instead of a doorstep connection to existing rapid transit that delivers you downtown in 25 minutes, there's talk of potentially tacking a dog leg onto an HSR route that barely exists, which would link to the retail/transit hubs 3km (GO/Smart Centre) and 5km (B-Line LRT/Eastgate) southwest.

Gilmore Place is in step with Burnaby's Metrotown Downtown Plan and Brentwood Town Centre Development Plan.

Gilmore Place: Walk Score 85, Transit Score 81, Bike Score 61
310 Frances Ave: Walk Score 8, Transit Score 22, Bike Score 27




The Goldman Group’s 120 Grangeway (Grangeway & Progress), Scarborough, ON:

"The north block would house three towers atop a shared five-to-eight storey podium. These towers would stand 50, 45 and 35 storeys, while maintaining the city’s suggested 25-metre separation between each. The south block would house a similar structure, with the remaining towers reaching 34, 48 and 52 storeys. The two podiums in this development would share almost 50,000 square-feet of retail space… 120 Grangeway is ideally situated to be adjacent to the upcoming terminal station, which will act as the terminus for the subway line, as well as connect to regional bus networks and the GO system… you’re also close to the recently-renovated Scarborough Town Centre, the fourth-largest shopping centre in the GTA.… The upcoming Sheppard Avenue East LRT, planned for just north of the site, has also sparked several mixed-use projects for the surrounding area, bringing both living, retail and office space to this pocket of the GTA.”

120 Grangeway is in step with the Scarborough Centre Secondary Plan, Scarborough Transportation Master Plan and Metrolinx's Mobility Hub Guidelines.

120 Grangeway: Walk Score 86, Transit Score 96, Bike Score 47
310 Frances Ave: Walk Score 8, Transit Score 22, Bike Score 27

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

That grimsby image is actually of a condo at Leslie and eglinton in Toronto.

Here's Grimsby:



Grimsby condo development proves unpopular
(Grimsby Lincoln News, Richard Hutton, Mar 21 2018)

A proposed mixed-use condominium development on Windward Drive in Grimsby has proven to be unpopular not only with residents, but members of the town’s planning and development committee as well.

“Please don’t come back here with the exact same plan,” said Ald. Nick DiFlavio, who is also chair of the committee. “It’s not something we want to have in there.”

DiFlavio made the comments at the end of an open house Tuesday night to get feedback from residents on the proposed development, which consists of two multistory condominium towers, one 19 storeys and a second larger 22-storey building. The development would feature 3,159 square metres of retail space at ground level. It also includes 496 parking spaces spread over five levels…

The developer has made applications seeking amendments to the town’s Official Plan, which only allows for buildings up to 12 storeys in height, and the zoning bylaw. The land is currently zoned mixed use development and the developer seeks a change in designation to mixed high-use density.

Read it in full here.




Odyssey continues for condo complex
(Grimsby Lincoln News, Richard Hutton, Apr 12 2018)

A Grimsby development slated for Windward Drive and Winston Road, slated to be twin condominium towers of 14 and 18 stories along with nine townhomes, has morphed into a whole new development with one 20-storey condo tower and 27 townhomes, 10 of which will be located above retail space located at ground level.… The 20-storey building would be the second tallest building in town if an adjacent development put forward by Rousseau Development Corp. at 4 Windward, which consists of two towers scaling 18- and 22-stories, wins approval. That project faced criticism from both the planning committee and the public at a recent open house.

Read it in full here.

[ScreamingViking]

WTF is going on with that podium? New-style gargantuan McCafe with a massive PlayPlace?

Originally Posted by thomax

source

[LRTfan]

Originally Posted by thistleclub

Urban Capital/Rogers Real Estate Development's 81-storey M3 Condos, part of the M City complex (Burnhamthorpe Rd. W. & Confederation Pkwy), Mississauga, ON:

Two blocks from the (currently redacted loop of the) Hurontario LRT, 15 minute walk from the City Centre Transit Terminal & MiWay bus transit network. On the edge of Mississauga's Civic Centre, Art Gallery of Mississauga, Living Arts Centre, Central Library, Celebration Square, Sheridan's McCallion Campus, and Square One — the largest shopping mall in the province – plus amenities like Cineplex Mississauga, Playdium, and Whole Foods.

M3/M City is in step with Mississauga's Downtown 21 Master Plan and Metrolinx's Mobility Hub Guidelines.

M3 Condos: Walk Score 88, Transit Score 68, Bike Score 73
310 Frances Ave: Walk Score 8, Transit Score 22, Bike Score 27




60-storey CG Tower, part of Cortel's Expo City, Hwy 7 & Hwy 400, Vaughan, ON:

"Conveniently located steps from the Subway, VIVA and GO transportation stations… in the heart of the bustling Vaughan Metropolitan Centre."

"These towers, the first of five in a complex called Expo City and the tallest buildings in York Region, are the first manifestations of a plan to build a downtown from scratch...,. The vision is closely tied to the $2.6-billion, 8.6-kilometre York-Spadina subway extension slowly tunnelling its way north from Downsview Station. It's the first time Toronto's subway has reached past the city limits and will service Vaughan with about a 45-minute ride to Union Station.… The vision is for a true live-work-and-play city featuring green space, office and condo towers, pedestrian links, hotels, entertainment venues and 36,000 workers and residents."

CG Tower is in step with the Vaughan Metropolitan Centre Secondary Plan and Metrolinx's Mobility Hub Guidelines.

CG Tower: Walk Score 32, Transit Score 75, Bike Score 44
310 Frances Ave: Walk Score 8, Transit Score 22, Bike Score 27




Onni's Gilmore Place, Gilmore Ave. & Lougheed Hwy, Burnaby BC:

"• a 64-storey signature tower with 643 units
• a 51-storey tower with 510 units
• a 43-storey tower with 410 units
• 71,498 SF of residential amenity space atop the commercial podium
• 291,652 SF of commercial space in a large 3-storey podium
• large format retail and smaller CRUs as well as potential office and educational space on upper levels
• total density of 6.6 FAR
• connection to Skytrain station"

New Horizon's towers at Frances & Teal also has a trio of towers in the same height ballpark as GP, but with 1/73 as much commercial space, and instead of a doorstep connection to existing rapid transit that delivers you downtown in 25 minutes, there's talk of potentially tacking a dog leg onto an HSR route that barely exists, which would link to the retail/transit hubs 3km (GO/Smart Centre) and 5km (B-Line LRT/Eastgate) southwest.

Gilmore Place is in step with Burnaby's Metrotown Downtown Plan and Brentwood Town Centre Development Plan.

Gilmore Place: Walk Score 85, Transit Score 81, Bike Score 61
310 Frances Ave: Walk Score 8, Transit Score 22, Bike Score 27




The Goldman Group’s 120 Grangeway (Grangeway & Progress), Scarborough, ON:

"The north block would house three towers atop a shared five-to-eight storey podium. These towers would stand 50, 45 and 35 storeys, while maintaining the city’s suggested 25-metre separation between each. The south block would house a similar structure, with the remaining towers reaching 34, 48 and 52 storeys. The two podiums in this development would share almost 50,000 square-feet of retail space… 120 Grangeway is ideally situated to be adjacent to the upcoming terminal station, which will act as the terminus for the subway line, as well as connect to regional bus networks and the GO system… you’re also close to the recently-renovated Scarborough Town Centre, the fourth-largest shopping centre in the GTA.… The upcoming Sheppard Avenue East LRT, planned for just north of the site, has also sparked several mixed-use projects for the surrounding area, bringing both living, retail and office space to this pocket of the GTA.”

120 Grangeway is in step with the Scarborough Centre Secondary Plan, Scarborough Transportation Master Plan and Metrolinx's Mobility Hub Guidelines.

120 Grangeway: Walk Score 86, Transit Score 96, Bike Score 47
310 Frances Ave: Walk Score 8, Transit Score 22, Bike Score 27

ahh yes, the good ole Hamilton way. We've stunk at planning for decades, so instead of fixing our mistakes, let's keep making more mistakes. Heaven forbid we learn from all the successful, growing cities around us and start building proper transit in this area, and lobby for more mixed-use development.
Nope. Let's oppose progress and instead keep building single family cul-de-sacs across the countryside.

I applaud this developer for realizing that Hamilton is clearly never going to take a wild leap out of the 1970's, so he's hoping perhaps he can force their hand with a lucrative private investment. He's clearly spent too much time in progressive, successful cities....Hamilton's old lunch-bucket guard will make sure we never become forward thinking like everywhere else. What we've been doing hasn't worked for the last 50 years. So let's keep doing it for another 50! Yay Hamilton! #unstoppable

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by LRTfan

ahh yes, the good ole Hamilton way. We've stunk at planning for decades, so instead of fixing our mistakes, let's keep making more mistakes. Heaven forbid we learn from all the successful, growing cities around us and start building proper transit in this area, and lobby for more mixed-use development.

Not my point at all. Just identifying common threads in parallel examples you had brought forward.

With the possible exception of the 30-storey retirement complex in Laval, all were consistent with contemporary thinking on urban development, and offered credible examples of well-developed live-work-play communities. The Frances Avenue triplets are simply a limit case expression of the city's most outmoded development thinking. (As you pointed out, "50 years ago this land was zoned for EXACTLY this type of development.")

[Innsertnamehere]

50 years ago these would have been the 3 tallest residential buildings in canada

[thistleclub]

Let's not forget what 21st century waterfront development actually looked like from the perspective of 1971 Hamilton. Note the TransCab upgrade.

[ScreamingViking]

High rises on the waterfront with hydrofoil taxis... the age of that aspiration makes the all-day GO train service hope seem like a toddler.

[lachlanholmes]

I haven't seen this rendering shared here yet. Extracted from Appendix C of item 7.3.a of next Tuesday's planning meeting.

[StEC]

The towers look so much better in this new rendering, I'm really liking the look now!

A few things....

• That podium though looks like a shopping mall or convention center which is kinda cool I suppose lol. I realize it's a massive parking garage so I give them credit for at least making the garage look interesting instead of a giant concrete slab *cough* 20/22 George Street *cough*!
  
• The huge terrace park is ABSOLUTELY STUNNING!
  
• The old condo in the background of the image looks like it got a massive modern facelift and a additional penthouse level with floor to ceiling windows??? What's up with that? Really taking artistic liberties in this rendering to sell this? lol
  
• I also see they widened the service road to four lanes with a wide sidewalk on the QEW side of the service road and also the QEW is covered in grass and trees??? LMAO
• Francis ave is also 4 lanes?
• Also that's a lot of people walking in an area with a near 0 walk-ability score!
• THIS NEEDS TO BE DOWNTOWN WHERE IT BELONGS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!