Halifax Stadium Discussion

[halifaxboyns]

If we move the site off the peninsula; then the Windsor/Willow park site could also be an opportunity site for redevelopment of another kind later on. I think the relationship with the forum was a factor in the fact that if the two sites were connected, there was existing parking that could be added too.

Regardless, the population numbers show that the the greater numbers are off the peninsula. Chances are that even if the percentages of the off peninsula population attending are small; the cumulative impact will still be greater than what the peninsula could produce. That's a good point.

Also ATL's comment answers my question about stadium size, but could the design not be to a minimum of 25k and then have expansion for more? Or would it be more appropriate to just aim for 30 to 35K and that's it?

As I mentioned earlier, both the Calgary and Edmonton CFL stadiums don't have a lot of parking, but create a parking problems in the residential communities around them. The design seems to suggest a desire to push transit use, versus vehicle use. If the issue is access, this can be overcome with special dedicated transit routes for events (much like happened at Exhibition Park). So because the games typically would happen on weekends, chances are a lot of the articulated buses would be available. Then once the city starts growing to the point an LRT/RAV is appropriate; part of the route could involve servicing the stie.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

ok here is the real goods!

I took these numbers off the HRM website by district....keep in mind these are 2006 numbers...compiled by Stats Can.

Total 2006 population of HRM 372,858

Peninsula population 58,025

Dartmouth side of HRM 134,614
Halifax side (not peninsula) 180,219

There were at that time three areas experiencing growth over ten percent.
1) Clayton Park West 34.4% (2001 to 2006)
2) Hammonds Plains 22.1% (2001 to 2006)
3) Rockingham 10.6% (2001 to 2006)
All other areas were single digit grow or shrinking....

So..where are the ticket buying public located? Where are the families going to come from to attend events? Look above and draw your own conclusions.

Interesting numbers but when you look at a map then the conclusion is different. It appears to me that anyone to the right of the blue line is closer to B (Halifax Forum area) than A (Kearney Lake area that you mentioned).

The West Mall area would be more convenient for both the area A that you mentioned and parts of the peninsula. I think it would be neutral as far as Dartmouth goes.

I don't see Shannon Park being a better location for people to the left of the blue line since they will all have to cross the bridges.

I think this discussion shows that location will be a sticking point for any major new HRM facility as it has been for decades. I know that there was a debate when the Halifax Metro Centre was built 33 years ago.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

Fenwick,
secondly the commonwealth games grew to such a huge expense it was unfair to ask the tax payers to carry the burden....so much more than just the stadium.....I think in the end it was right decision to stop the bid.
....

The Commonwealth Games did not grow to a huge expense. The "work in progress design" was showing increased costs. Instead of the Mayor and council brainstorming with the games committee to finalize a design that was within a realistic budget Kelly hit the panic button and killed the games. With that, he threw out $400million of federal money and gave Halifax an enormous black eye. The decision to bail should have only come after a final, final, design was tabled and it was certain that based on that design the feds would not offer up more cash.

The price for the games was high because Halifax has zero sport infrastructure and this amount of money was an amount that should have been invested over the past 100 years. Most of this money would be paying wages and buying supplies locally. Is there another city in North America with a pop of +350,000 with no stadium at all?

[hfx_chris]

I think the issues of where in HRM it should go are moot, as long as it's within the "urban" area (as in, not in Hubbards or Porters Lake )
I think the majority (greater than 50%) of attendees are going to be driving. So to somebody living in Clayton Park and driving to the event, is the fact the stadium is on Young Street versus Kearney Lake Road going to actually stop you from going? Or even Shannon Park for that matter?

The people who the location will matter to most, are the non-drivers. The people who walk, bike or take transit. Well the first thought then, is that it should be located on the peninsula, because chances are the majority of those people are living on the peninsula, and most areas on the peninsula that we've been discussing already have good transit service.

But even if a stadium were built in places like Shannon Park or Kearney Lake or Dartmouth Crossing, there's always options for HRM and Metro Transit to step up and provide increased service for events. Look at what they do for the Airshow when it's at Shearwater, shuttle buses every 10-15 minutes straight onto the base (and to the commenter who said there's no parking, not quite - they always have one of the taxiways or ramps closed and turned into a massive parking lot). Concerts on the Common, shuttles from most major terminals. Hell Metro Transit even used to operate a shuttle route (22) from Mumford Terminal to Exhibition Park during events - now that route is a regular 7 day a week route. It can be done.

Just another note on some of these off-peninsula locations regarding public transit. Most of them already have transit service: Kearney Lake Road has the 33 which could see increased service during events; Dartmouth Crossing has the 56 and 72, again which could be increased during events and augmented with a route from Halifax; and Shannon Park has the 51, which once again could be increased and augmented with other shuttle routes, and the possibility of some sort of ferry access as well.

[hfxtradesman]

Just to put another log on the fire, I was watching sportsnet and the CFL was just saying that in the next 60 days they are hoping to get another regular season game back in Moncton NEXT YEAR. The just need to ink the deal with all three levels of the gov, cause we know it's not going to happen in Halifax

[Jstaleness]

Transit wise the Shannon Park option isn't bad. A shuttle from the Dartmouth Terminal. A shuttle from the Lacewood Terminal. Finally a Shuttle from let's say Bedford Place Mall. Tons of free parking there. I think it could work.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

The people who the location will matter to most, are the non-drivers. The people who walk, bike or take transit. .

Actually the people where the location will matter most to are the bar owners and downtown businesses.

They will demand the stadium in or just adjacdent to downtown. They were speaking out on this during the games bid.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

I think the CFL Commish opened a few eyes when he stated the CFL would only look at expansion to a stadium the could hold a min of 25000. That would leave Moncton out of the mix.....BIG HINT TO HRM (NS)
Every stadium needs to rent out its space....concerts, events, minor and university sports or regionals (like the Uteck Bowl GRRR!) and long term tenants like Pro Sports (CFL).

This could be the only window of opportunity for HRM

As a Monctonian, I know that I risk getting my head bitten off by posting in this thread but I thought it important to clear up some misconceptions........

Nobody ever said that the max capacity of the Moncton Stadium was 20,500. With the current grandstands and the temporary end zone bleachers, that is what the stadium is capable of currently holding.

The east grandstand could be extended higher, and if the end zone bleachers were extended to meet up with the existing grandstands to make a complete bowl, then I have no doubt that we could achieve a capacity of 28,000 or so. Moncton therefore remains very much in the running and indeed has a head start.

The lack of on site parking is a major issue but it should be noted that the lands on the other side of Morton Avenue (directly across the street from the stadium) are completely undeveloped. You could easily put in many hectares of cheap surface parking here and connect it via a pedway across Morton directly to the stadium.

If a Moncton ownership group successfully bids for a CFL franchise, I have no doubt that this surface parking would happen.

Originally Posted by hfxtradesman

Just to put another log on the fire, I was watching sportsnet and the CFL was just saying that in the next 60 days they are hoping to get another regular season game back in Moncton NEXT YEAR. The just need to ink the deal with all three levels of the gov, cause we know it's not going to happen in Halifax

The original agreement with the CFL was that this would be a five year arrangement, subject to yearly reviews in order to determine if the project remains fiscally and politically viable. Given the success of this years venture (so far), I'm pretty sure it will happen next year too.

The more years the CFL returns to Moncton, the more likely it will be that there will be a Moncton CFL franchise. (Moncton 2015?!?).

Halifax however should not be threatened by this. If Moncton can do it, then so can Halifax. The potential rivalry of having two Maritime teams in the CFL would be very powerful!!

Originally Posted by -Harlington-

Everything bolded makes me wish we had the kind of leadership and vision they (Moncton) have, after reading that and looking at halifax and the things we say and do i died a little inside
i love this city and just wish it would get the frickin picture here.

Ian Fowler and the City of Moncton Parks and Recreation Department are our greatest secret weapon. They are at the forefront of our "vision" but our mayor and city council also "gets" it.........

If you build it, they will come

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Ian Fowler and the City of Moncton Parks and Recreation Department are our greatest secret weapon. They are at the forefront of our "vision" but our mayor and city council also "gets" it.........

If you build it, they will come

Moncton certainly tries harder to get events than Halifax. I am glad that Moncton and their stadium are getting people in the Halifax area fired up - maybe something will happen this time regarding a stadium.

One advantage that Moncton has as a community is that there is no large harbour that splits the municipality in half (this could be considered to be a disadvantage also - no large harbour).

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Moncton certainly tries harder to get events than Halifax.

One advantage that Moncton has as a community is that there is no large harbour that splits the municipality in half (this could be considered to be a disadvantage also - no large harbour).

Well, we do have one very muddy river but we have two bridges with seven lanes of traffic (just like Halifax) and 85% of the population of the CMA lives on the north side of the river........I guess that helps.

[FuzzyWuz]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

That would actually take more space along Young Street (more of the Atlantic Superstore). As it is, the longest side of the stadium is along Windsor Street.

What do you think of the Cardiff City Stadium design? In some ways it is a more permanent and better sheltered version of the temporary BC Lion's facility (which is a very intimate stadium). Also there are no columns within the seating area to obstruct views. One desirable feature that should be incorporated would be room for expansion by adding an additional tier of seats.

The Cardiff design looks beautiful. It's amazing what can be done on such a budget.

As for my layout comment I wasn't thinking the stadium would be alongside young st. I imagined the narrow side being on Windsor and the length going behind the superstore. I think more of that land is in government hands.

[RyanNS]

As far as I'm concerned the worst possible decision would be to locate a stadium in a car only accessible location on the outskirts of the city. IMO a stadium should be pedestrian accesible and in an area that is surrounded by restaurants, pubs, shopping etc. In my experiences there is such a better atmosphere when you can attract and keep a large crowd of people in the area both before and after the game. These suburban stadiums where people arrive and leave by car just seem so lifeless and desolate 99% of the time.

I'd support a Willow Park or Shannon Park location.

I know my argument isn't exactly supported by facts or anything that makes financial sense but just my humble opinion

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Empire

The Commonwealth Games did not grow to a huge expense. The "work in progress design" was showing increased costs. Instead of the Mayor and council brainstorming with the games committee to finalize a design that was within a realistic budget Kelly hit the panic button and killed the games. With that, he threw out $400million of federal money and gave Halifax an enormous black eye. The decision to bail should have only come after a final, final, design was tabled and it was certain that based on that design the feds would not offer up more cash.

I agree. Pretending that it was just a prudent move to pull the plug on the CWG bid after millions were already spent is ridiculous. In reality it was a comedy of errors and poor planning that resulted in horrible failure.

The stadium is the same thing. Halifax has 400,000 people and can afford to have a basic, reasonably-sized stadium suited for the CFL (25,000 permanent seats) that would also be useful for events.

Saying that the city can't afford $60-80M is just wrong when it can afford to build a $35M rink in Bedford. As for site selection, that is not a serious impediment to a properly planned campaign. You look at sites and then you choose the best one that is affordable.

This is 100% lack of direction and nothing else.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

The Commonwealth Games did not grow to a huge expense. The "work in progress design" was showing increased costs. Instead of the Mayor and council brainstorming with the games committee to finalize a design that was within a realistic budget Kelly hit the panic button and killed the games. With that, he threw out $400million of federal money and gave Halifax an enormous black eye. The decision to bail should have only come after a final, final, design was tabled and it was certain that based on that design the feds would not offer up more cash.

The price for the games was high because Halifax has zero sport infrastructure and this amount of money was an amount that should have been invested over the past 100 years. Most of this money would be paying wages and buying supplies locally. Is there another city in North America with a pop of +350,000 with no stadium at all?

I often wonder if it could have been downsized in order to fit the budget. Could the athlete's village have been scrapped and then host the athlete's elsewhere? Could the aquatics centre have been cut and the aquatic sports hosted at Centennial Pool? The stadium design could have been simplified. Maybe Halifax wouldn't have been selected by the international committee but it wouldn't have received such a black eye in Canada.

I think that many people considered it as an opportunity to get funding for a stadium. Once the numbers inflated to over $795 million dollars then it seemed like too much money to spend to obtain a $100 million stadium (I know that there was more to it, but how many people were really interested in the other components?)

[beyeas]

An idea worth thinking about

So Roger Taylor's article today mentioned that the late Charlie Keating had apparently said that his thought on a stadium was that it should be a stadium that can accomodate baseball as well as being configurable for football and concerts. His thought was that marketing it as a football concept didn't have the business plan because of the limited # of football games per year, whereas baseball teams play tons of games. At that point if you could attract both a CFL team and a minor league basebell team there were be a business plan.

Not sure if that is a) feasible in terms of having both teams, b) feasible in terms of being able to reconfigure the stadium that often and c) a major problem in terms of adding costs to the stadium design.

Having said that Keating is a guy who certainly knew business, and so it is likely at least an idea worth tossing around.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by Empire

The Commonwealth Games did not grow to a huge expense. The "work in progress design" was showing increased costs. Instead of the Mayor and council brainstorming with the games committee to finalize a design that was within a realistic budget Kelly hit the panic button and killed the games. With that, he threw out $400million of federal money and gave Halifax an enormous black eye. The decision to bail should have only come after a final, final, design was tabled and it was certain that based on that design the feds would not offer up more cash.

The price for the games was high because Halifax has zero sport infrastructure and this amount of money was an amount that should have been invested over the past 100 years. Most of this money would be paying wages and buying supplies locally. Is there another city in North America with a pop of +350,000 with no stadium at all?

Salty....
The skinny on the Games is the cost actually grew to where it would be at 1 billion........You know how this thing get so out of control....everything get added on....we want this and that....I believe it was the right thing toback off....would have loved to see it happen at half that cost but we would not likely have been selected unless it was the grandiose scheme it became....and yes Atlantic Canada would have been proud and burdened for a long long time.....specially if NS had to split 600 million of that between HRM and the Province.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by beyeas

An idea worth thinking about

So Roger Taylor's article today mentioned that the late Charlie Keating had apparently said that his thought on a stadium was that it should be a stadium that can accomodate baseball as well as being configurable for football and concerts. His thought was that marketing it as a football concept didn't have the business plan because of the limited # of football games per year, whereas baseball teams play tons of games. At that point if you could attract both a CFL team and a minor league basebell team there were be a business plan.

Not sure if that is a) feasible in terms of having both teams, b) feasible in terms of being able to reconfigure the stadium that often and c) a major problem in terms of adding costs to the stadium design.

Having said that Keating is a guy who certainly knew business, and so it is likely at least an idea worth tossing around.

I have spent quite a bit of time thinking about this. If it were possible to host some Blue Jay exhibition games then it would be a bonus. I think that having a football/soccer/convert stadium that has removable sections for a few baseball games might be a good idea. Senior level amateur baseball tournaments might be an option. Minor league professional baseball has not been overly successful in Canada (example: the Ottawa Lynx).

The problem with combining a baseball stadium and football stadium is that it ends up being a poor compromise for one sport. One simple way is to put most of the seats along one sideline as was proposed for the Commonwealth Games but then it won't be an intimate stadium.

Most minor league professional baseball parks are specifically designed for baseball and therefore have very good seating arrangements for baseball. In Ottawa they built Lynx Stadium which seats over 10,000 just for minor league baseball - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Baseball_Stadium.

An intimate football/soccer/concert venue could easily be configured for softball and little league baseball tournaments without removing any seat sections. But minor league professional baseball requires a much larger field. If Halifax does build a stadium, it would be good to start with an intimate football stadium that will likely be used for the CFL as opposed to designing it for minor pro baseball which will probably not happen (just my opinion). Halifax would likely only get the lowest level of pro baseball - would this be supported? Large cities such as Buffalo and Indianapolis are at the triple A level. Ottawa was previously at the triple A level but now I think that they are trying to get a lower level pro team.

[ATL Stadium]

Here is what I believe is a major major major point!

FIRST! Any stadium has to have tenants....period.

The "wildcat guy" made it clear and if it is not clear to others.....listen up!
Moncton is in position to make the ask......for CFL....and yes an ownership will step up for a new team!

Here is the only major issue.....Moncton has a 10,000 seat stadium...expandable to 20,000. Wildcat guy thinks its expandable to 28,000 OK! I think that is unrealistic.

However.... even if 28,000 was doable.....here is the CFL commissioners point!
Any CFL team (city) should be able take its turn (and want to $$$) at hosting the Grey Cup! Certainly for viability a team would have to draw ticket buyers and the 25,000 bench mark is what the league is using as a breakeven minimum capacity, expandable for events like the Grey Cup and Playoffs.....to even larger seating capacity.....$$$$$ in ticket sales

Right now....in my thinking Moncton has missed that benchmark.....and will have to ask the CFL to permit a much smaller site.....first they must showcase the games this weekend (Saturday SMU vs MtA then Sunday Agros vs Eskies) once that happens....the "ask" will happen.....

What really hurts is that Moncton includes HRM population in its numerical count of potential ticket buyers...... they claim they can draw from a 2 plus hour radius of Moncton!

So here is the two scenarios that I see happening.....that will result in HRM EVER having a stadium!!!!!

one - Moncton gets a CFL team .....and eventually it fails due to lack of ticket sales.....enter HRM to build...

two- HRM jumps into action right now! Announces plans for a 30,000 seat stadium...CFL re-thinks the Moncton location and places it on hold!

All of this will happen this coming week! Watch it unfold!
Pick it.....one or two ?

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by hfxtradesman

Just to put another log on the fire, I was watching sportsnet and the CFL was just saying that in the next 60 days they are hoping to get another regular season game back in Moncton NEXT YEAR. The just need to ink the deal with all three levels of the gov, cause we know it's not going to happen in Halifax

Here is how it all happens looking through the big picture window!

This an opportunity for Moncton and NB!

The provincial NB Govt bought a home game from the Argos! CFL permitted that game to be held in Moncton...with its eye on the dream of becoming a coast to coast league!
It has no been revealed yet.....that this a multi year deal......certainly NB wishes to recoup its cost to have this game.....just like any owner would.
Moncton NB is trying to attract an owner.....maybe already has one.....

An owner (ownership group) needs to see proof of some longer term viability other than the one game extravaganza! I would think this is a similar type of experiment like the Buffalo Bills in Toronto deal.

I think the venue is too small and located in the wrong city.! But that is just me!

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Interesting numbers but when you look at a map then the conclusion is different. It appears to me that anyone to the right of the blue line is closer to B (Halifax Forum area) than A (Kearney Lake area that you mentioned).

The West Mall area would be more convenient for both the area A that you mentioned and parts of the peninsula. I think it would be neutral as far as Dartmouth goes.

I don't see Shannon Park being a better location for people to the left of the blue line since they will all have to cross the bridges.

I think this discussion shows that location will be a sticking point for any major new HRM facility as it has been for decades. I know that there was a debate when the Halifax Metro Centre was built 33 years ago.

Fenwick....
We spend too much time on location.......but...
Distance is not the factor I'm getting at here......nobody wants to go on and off the peninsula.....
You cant draw a line on a map and say well its closer or farther....one might be right next to the stadium....and not have access....
Shannon Park works....any locale along the 102 works....simply because it is accessible via mass transit/shuttle/or one could drive if their was parking...or drive closer and shuttle to the game/concert....
Todays populations travel...movement is a key factor.....any stadium will seek tenants...tenants have owners...owners need to sell tickets....ticket buyers....are located where?